SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

[AAA]

Didn't mean to edit that tech part out, but still think its a good plan.

I'd prefer not play the next turnset, but no matter who plays, we might as well outline another PPP. I guess the question is where we want to stop?

Typically you stop with Printing Press and use Lib to grab Nationalism. However the early turns of the switch over to full culture press tend to be quite marginal, 100-150 points per turn. I'd rather wait, get the buildings up (temples, cathedrals, monasteries), let the cottages mature and run to rifling. We can probably get the culture win before infantry show up.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

...and there's the positivity that will lead us to victory. *headdesk*

It was a joke

Hopefully, everyone is screwed, and we still have a shot at a medal.

 

[Yamps]

@Xcal

All leaders are Toku so Pleased is needed for trading. iTechKnownPercent is at 100% so all civs have to know the tech.

However, there are some techs that AI always trades. I don't know the code, it's from some Russian SGOTM player a few years ago. Monotheism, Alpha, Monarchy, Printing Press, Sci Method, Replaceable Parts, Liberalism. (possibly some more advanced techs too)

Btw, I'm not spoiled with other teams' progress so I could take a more detailed look. It's a really crazy game, this SGOTM!

If playing for Religion, consider shared wars for +5 and +6 for shared Mercantilism. If going for Culture, I think holding on with LBs and maybe some GG will be needed. If you decide to steal some techs, it's good to gift one of your own cities to get the City Culture bonus (+50% maximum, proportional to your culture and inversely proportional to total city culture.)

 

[Xcalibrator]

All leaders are Toku so Pleased is needed for trading. iTechKnownPercent is at 100% so all civs have to know the tech.

However, there are some techs that AI always trades. I don't know the code, it's from some Russian SGOTM player a few years ago. Monotheism, Alpha, Monarchy, Printing Press, Sci Method, Replaceable Parts, Liberalism. (possibly some more advanced techs too)

Btw, I'm not spoiled with other teams' progress so I could take a more detailed look. It's a really crazy game, this SGOTM!

If playing for Religion, consider shared wars for +5 and +6 for shared Mercantilism. If going for Culture, I think holding on with LBs and maybe some GG will be needed. If you decide to steal some techs, it's good to gift one of your own cities to get the City Culture bonus (+50% maximum, proportional to your culture and inversely proportional to total city culture.)

Thanks, Yamps, that's just the kind of info we need! Good point about Merc'lism; since Toku loves that, our window for getting any trade routes is brief, and we'll need to get Banking quickish so we can run Merc'lism ourselves. It also makes getting the Minaret even more important, because we really can't count on trade routes to save us, at least not for very long.

** Edit: Oh, fudge. Liz already switched to Merc'lism on T146. Still, open borders would be good to have, right? Hmm, hmm...

Neil, you magnificent bastard! I want your BOOK!

 

[vra379971]

Thanks, Yamps, that's just the kind of info we need! Good point about Merc'lism; since Toku loves that, our window for getting any trade routes is brief, and we'll need to get Banking quickish so we can run Merc'lism ourselves. It also makes getting the Minaret even more important, because we really can't count on trade routes to save us, at least not for very long.

** Edit: Oh, fudge. Liz already switched to Merc'lism on T146. Still, open borders would be good to have, right? Hmm, hmm...

Neil, you magnificent bastard! I want your BOOK!

If we want a shot at a backdoor AP win, then we need to keep 3 Hindu Missionaries at all times poised to invade.

 

[Xcalibrator]

No word from kcd?

We gave copper to Toku? When was that?

At the moment we're running -3gpt @0%, but we'll do much better after reassigning Bolly's miners to cottages, work Drona's gold, etc. With our cash stash and some more pillaging (copper mine 3S of Tokyo, farm 2E1S of Tokyo, and around Kago) I think we can get Currency in about 5 turns.

Yeah, we should DoW Toku, steal his worker, and pillage around Kago. This will give us common enemy pts with Hatty and Liz. After we steal Monarchy from him (ASAP!) we might just want to finish him off. He can't tech worth a darn so tech theft will be limited. We can't spread Hinduism to Kago without open borders, and that seems extremely unlikely. We culd settle, infect, and gift a city, but what does that do for us? But I guess there's no rush to kill him.

Bring the galley back so it can carry a Hindu (and other) missionary to Vara. Whip its granary and send the overflow to Moai.

We need to start spreading other missionaries (Budd, Christian) to other cities. Kyoto is the only one with Budd so far. It also has some unhappies; the temple will help a bit but maybe we should start on a Chouse and 3- or 4-whip it. The maintenance is quite high and those 2 unhappy citizens aren't of any use to us.

We still haven't explored north of Vijay!! Seriously, we need to do this RFN!!!! And if we can get open borders with Shaka we'll need a road connecting us or we won't get any trade routes.

Sell our map to those with cash (but not to Shaka until we've DoW'd Toku because they haven't met yet and we can avoid "You DoW'd our friend").

Babylon is lower in score than us--we need to go beat him up.

 

[vra379971]

Best you develop a looong PPP then Xcal, as it doesn't look like we're getting any more time.

 

[kcd_swede]

Best you develop a looong PPP then Xcal, as it doesn't look like we're getting any more time.

Yeah. I was on job interview yesterday, and have a couple more coming up next week. I'm sure I can make the time to play a set, but reporting in here every day might be tough.

I can take the next set, but honestly I could use tons of help with the PPP.

Merc will be great for getting +diplo with all Tokus. As long as we can continue to be the only name on the ballot, that's great! If we get an opponent, all the Tokus will love each other even more when they adopt Merc.

Personally, I think that makes Banking an even bigger priority, and we'll probably need to get that ourselves. I'd also like to see Optics given some prio as that would save tons of time for exploration and moving things about. On second thought... can't we just buy some maps... after we get about +5 diplo or so, maybe.

Note, if we are serious about religion VC (and I think we should be, we ought not assume that there is an unaccessible AI), the gaining of +diplo is the most important thing we can do right now. Get banking and gift it to all. Join wars against whipping boy Toku. Then we can open borders and infect. Then we can trade for some stuff, maybe get some maps, make a friend, infect with hindu, and win the game.

Banking seems to me to be the key. +4 for fair trades (gift banking); +5 for joint war; +6 for fav civic. That opens borders and buys us maps. A caravel gets missionaries into open borders, and gift the mish gets spread even if AI is running Theo.

DR is great to have, too, if we can get SpM... but even this is less important for religion vc. Perhaps bulb DR with GPro's. The more tech we can pull in, the safer we will be and the more we will have to gift for good relations.

I think we should get another spy to Kago and steal something, btw. But not a hurry.

On another note, AlanH has removed the brackets for Vra. Welcome to the ACTIVE roster list, Vra.

I'll take this coming set, and Vra can get ready to take the one after mine. Sound OK? Is that OK Cap'n XCal?

I'll try and come up with a draft PPP later today.

 

[Trystero]

Banking seems to me to be the key. +4 for fair trades (gift banking); +5 for joint war; +6 for fav civic. That opens borders and buys us maps. A caravel gets missionaries into open borders, and gift the mish gets spread even if AI is running Theo.

Banking would require Currency, then MC > Machinery > (Monarchy > Feudalism) Guilds. Many of these are techs we've talked about, but this would definitely put us more on a war footing, which this game will probably demand regardless (Especially if we sneak Engineering in there somewhere). Given the problems/limitations on tech trading and our economy we've discussed, this seems daunting as a near-term goal.

(Edit: Hammy has many of these techs. Perhaps we can beat them out of him? Babylon has the Great Wall, and probably a Scotland Yard, which would help our espionage. He does, unfortunately, also have Protective longbows.)

(Edit2: Kyoto needs a courthouse badly. We are paying >10 gpt there.)

Looking at the save, and thinking about our needs, it is becoming harder for me to see the culture victory here. A war-powered AP victory is seeming more and more like the best option. But I am much less skilled than others here, so I will defer to your judgement about feasibility.

Good luck with the job interviews. I was in a similar position a year ago and it turned out well.

 

[kcd_swede]

MM: cottage time. Corn to Osaka. +37gpt at 0%, +2gpt at 20% with 35bpt before UoSankore. Monarchy takes 7 turns at 20%. Burning all our gold we can probably do it in 2 turns (though without Sankore it takes 3).

Proposed tech path:
(Monarchy)-MC-Comp-Mach-Optics (on way to Banking)

Discuss: Monarchy is problematic to me. I think its a shame to steal or research a tech that can normally be traded for. I'd rather we steal Compass from Toku. We will only have enough EP for stealing one tech, and its probably a waste to make more against Toku. But we need HR now, so might as well tech Monarchy ourselves. HR will give more commerce than currency at this point!

City builds:
Bolly - finishes Sankore, then finish catapult, then Xtian Monastary? Spy? HMiss?
Vara - whip granary, overflow to Maoi. Chop Moai, improve. Need garrison... propose sending archer from somewhere that either has a spare or can build one quick.
Kyoto - whip BTemple into ch, then whip ch. Then BMiss.
Drona - HMiss +spys (needs more garrison if we DOW toku - move from Kyoto?).
Dehli - finish HMiss, then HMon, Libr? galley2?
Bombay- finish library, then? Units?
VJ - finish spear, worker/settler? more units?
HC- finish settler, then hindu buildings after Hmiss gets there.
Patal- finish spy, then libr?
Osaka- takes corn, grow, finish cat then Htemp/Hmon
Tokyo-finish IMiss, make more IMiss?

Worker stuff: more cottages, roads, improve sheep at Osaka and make cottage on banana whatever else makes sense I suppose.

Spy stuff: scout north pass to Shaka. Steal Compass from Toku.

Diplo stuff: cancel peace with Toku. Wait few (5) turns and see if asked to join war, say yes. If asked to cancel trades with Toku, say yes. If no requests, DOW Toku ourselves, (phony war) but just keep him penned in, only killing units he send out into open. Pillage Kago for fun and profit.

Esp: keep spending on Toku because outspending him makes missions cheaper. After stealing, if looks like nothing else to be had from Toku, shift focus to Hammy, who is ultimately going to get the same treatment as Toku. His close borders annoy us.

If any resolutions become available, do what will give +diplo. For example, propose return Tokyo to rightful owner and then vote "No" gets +2 from Hatty. Be careful. Are we gifting cities after infect? Probably not a hurry right now. After the peace is probably better.

Settling: WTH are we doing with the settler on the road? If Hill next to fish, then Patal should make a wb after spy. WTH are we doing with the settler from HC? If north island, 2E of corn looks best, at least after border pops. 1E is better if we don't pop borders. But HMiss will make it pop borders soon.

Specialists:
GSci would bulb Edu, so we hold them until time to do so. GPro/GA would bulb DR (after Monarchy), but maybe we wouldn't want to use a GA that way... and anyhow we aren't going to get a GA, so no point worrying about it.

Stop conditions:
20t, but pause 24hrs after 10t. We need to start pushing to avoid deadline pressures.
Something happens.
Don't know what to do.
Enough map knowledge gained to require altering long-range plans.

Anything else? Any different ideas? Lets try to hash this out quickly to keep things shufflin'.

 

[Xcalibrator]

I think your general plan is good, kcd. Yes, I agree we need Monarchy pretty urgently, so do it. Once Bolly has grown back, run some priests to speed its GP and pray for a Prophet to bulb most of DR, then finish it off ASAP and build the Minaret--the 200 base hammers invested will be paid back with equivalent gold in fewer than 10 turns. Otherwise, follow your tech plan. (Currency might move up the list if we get trade routes with somebody and/or settle the 2nd island city.)

Misc comments:

• Just about everybody has horse archers and/or war elephants--we need more spears--Bombay may be good for that.
• Sell our map when the AI offer decent gold. (Wait on Shaka until we've DoWed Toku since they haven't met yet and we can avoid "You DoWed our friend" penalty.)
• Have a settler ready for north of Vijay in case there's a good site.
• I don't know where else to settle--fish would help our health, especially since we'll be growing under HeredRule. Island site gives more trade. Either/both as you see fit.
• I think we need courthouses in a lot of places--expensive but will save a lot on maintenance and provide EPs. Probably more important than spreading other religions?
• Next AP vote in 4 turns.
• Check often for better resource trades.
• We'll need the Pata banana health at some point, but cottage is OK for now, I guess. Might be better to build a lighthouse, though?
• Don't stay in Slavery too long. Caste/specs will be better at some point.

 

[Trystero]

Quick comments: Agreed we need Monarchy and HR ASAP. Steal or self-research.

I would settle the fish/iron city and cottage. Either save the second settler for the north, or settle the other spot on the island.

I would not pause at 10 turns, unless some important new information becomes available (or you just feel you can't play more at that point and need a brrak). I'd play out to 20 turns, and then pause for comment. I think we need to play >20 turn sets at this point.

 

[kcd_swede]

I think your general plan is good, kcd. Yes, I agree we need Monarchy pretty urgently, so do it. Once Bolly has grown back, run some priests to speed its GP and pray for a Prophet to bulb most of DR, then finish it off ASAP and build the Minaret--the 200 base hammers invested will be paid back with equivalent gold in fewer than 10 turns. Otherwise, follow your tech plan. (Currency might move up the list if we get trade routes with somebody and/or settle the 2nd island city.)

Misc comments:

• Just about everybody has horse archers and/or war elephants--we need more spears--Bombay may be good for that.
• Sell our map when the AI offer decent gold. (Wait on Shaka until we've DoWed Toku since they haven't met yet and we can avoid "You DoWed our friend" penalty.)
• Have a settler ready for north of Vijay in case there's a good site.
• I don't know where else to settle--fish would help our health, especially since we'll be growing under HeredRule. Island site gives more trade. Either/both as you see fit.
• I think we need courthouses in a lot of places--expensive but will save a lot on maintenance and provide EPs. Probably more important than spreading other religions?
• Next AP vote in 4 turns.
• Check often for better resource trades.
• We'll need the Pata banana health at some point, but cottage is OK for now, I guess. Might be better to build a lighthouse, though?
• Don't stay in Slavery too long. Caste/specs will be better at some point.

Agreed on spears.
Setller in 5t will hold in north until knwon whether it can be settled up there (right now my guess in no). Holding off on settling the island until we have a few ch's up to get the econ rolling again.
Agreed on fish and courthouses.
Timing of gifting Tokyo... sooner is best for maint costs. Right after infection? Or wait?
No point cottaging banana if we think we'll need the health. Farm it maybe, if we can spare the worker turns (probably not this set).
Will switch to caste with HR. There are already places that could benefit... and Mercs for commerce would be useful there.

Once Bolly has grown back, run some priests to speed its GP and pray for a Prophet to bulb most of DR, then finish it off ASAP and build the Minaret--the 200 base hammers invested will be paid back with equivalent gold in fewer than 10 turns

.
Above by XCal seems like good idea, priests not sci's, at least after HR adopted. Final PPP will add that DR/SpM detour if we get a GPro (about 67% chance, about 12 turns more or less). Don't think we want to detour for DR manually until we get one.

Anything else I need to think about?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Green from me.

 

[vra379971]

Green. Maximize prophet chances and pray to Shiva o.o

 

[Xcalibrator]

Not sure about switching out of Slavery so soon. HR will let us grow currently-unhappy cities, which could then be whipped one more time for CH's--thinking of Vijay and Kyoto in particular, since they have so much food, unhappiness, and units to make the unhappiness go away with HR. Do as you think best.

Tokyo has already been infected, hasn't it? And with its commerce, it isn't that expensive. But dump it whenever you're ready, after having squeezed it dry.

Green from me.

(BTW, after updating the Game Report post, I realized that SH only played about 10 turns. With all he accomplished, it seemed like more. In any case, sorry if you wanted to play more and we jumped to the next player too soon, SH, but at least we're keeping things moving.)

 

[kcd_swede]

...unless someone puts on an emergency red light... (and you are welcome to add/subtract if you think of something before then, I'll check before playing)
-----------
MM: cottage time. Corn to Osaka. +37gpt at 0%, +2gpt at 20% with 35bpt before UoSankore. Monarchy takes 7 turns at 20%. Burning all our gold we can probably do it in 2 turns (though without Sankore it takes 3).

Proposed tech path:
(Monarchy)-MC-Comp-Mach-Optics (on way to Banking) [detour for DR if we get GPro to bulb with]

CIVICS: HR asap; castes later (est'd to be around when we have a GPro done in about 12t, and aim for pure scientist or GM)

City builds:
Bolly - finishes Sankore, then finish catapult, then Xtian Monastary? Spy? HMiss? SpMin asap if DR gotten... but in whatever city builds it fastest
Vara - whip granary, overflow to Maoi. Chop Moai, improve. Need garrison... propose sending archer from somewhere that either has a spare or can build one quick.
Kyoto - whip BTemple into ch, then whip ch. Then BMiss.
Drona - HMiss +spys (needs more garrison if we DOW toku - move from Kyoto?).
Dehli - finish HMiss, then HMon, Libr? galley2?
Bombay- finish library, then? Units?
VJ - finish spear, worker/settler? more units?
HC- finish settler, then hindu buildings after Hmiss gets there.
Patal- finish spy, then libr?
Osaka- takes corn, grow, finish cat then Htemp/Hmon
Tokyo-finish IMiss, make more IMiss?

Worker stuff: more cottages, roads, improve sheep at Osaka and make cottage on banana whatever else makes sense I suppose.

Spy stuff: scout north pass to Shaka. Steal Compass from Toku.

Diplo stuff: cancel peace with Toku. Wait few (5) turns and see if asked to join war, say yes. If asked to cancel trades with Toku, say yes. If no requests, DOW Toku ourselves, (phony war) but just keep him penned in, only killing units he send out into open. Pillage Kago for fun and profit.

Esp: keep spending on Toku because outspending him makes missions cheaper. After stealing, if looks like nothing else to be had from Toku, shift focus to Hammy, who is ultimately going to get the same treatment as Toku. His close borders annoy us.

If any resolutions become available, do what will give +diplo. For example, propose return Tokyo to rightful owner and then vote "No" gets +2 from Hatty. Be careful. Are we gifting cities after infect? Probably not a hurry right now. After the peace is probably better.

Settling: WTH are we doing with the settler on the road? If Hill next to fish, then Patal should make a wb after spy. WTH are we doing with the settler from HC? If north island, 2E of corn looks best, at least after border pops. 1E is better if we don't pop borders. But HMiss will make it pop borders soon.

Specialists:
GSci would bulb Edu, so we hold them until time to do so. GPro/GA would bulb DR (after Monarchy), but maybe we wouldn't want to use a GA that way... and anyhow we aren't going to get a GA, so no point worrying about it.

Stop conditions:
20t, but pause 24hrs after 10t. We need to start pushing to avoid deadline pressures.
Something happens.
Don't know what to do.
Enough map knowledge gained to require altering long-range plans.
We get Dow'd with something that requires major surgery to fix.

PPP Status is considered green and play will begin in about 16hrs from now.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Doesn't look like settling or courthouses got updated. And Currency, which is needed to get Banking, isn't listed anywhere. Good espi plan--ought to be able to steal some techs from Hammy once those Chouses are up. Any reason you can't play tonight? The sentiment for GREEN seems very strong.

Edit: No mention of map-selling either. Do you not like the idea?

 

[vra379971]

Settle 2E of corn.

 

[SteelHorse]

We gave copper to Toku? When was that?

I gifted Toku some techs and resources to help him put up a little fight and perhaps keep the war going a little longer also to get some diplo benefits if we decide we wanted to befriend. Also hoping that he might research something useful for us. Instead of backfilling. He was not worst enemy with anyone. And saw little long term harm.

And I agree with kcd, keeping Toku alive has more benefits than dead. Someone else for the world to be angry with.

I think Monarchy is important next for HR as our only real tool to fight unhappiness. The those troops in VJ and Kyoto can help a bit with whip anger. Suggest Currency after Monarchy. More immediate benefit than MC.

Settling: WTH are we doing with the settler on the road? If Hill next to fish, then Patal should make a wb after spy. WTH are we doing with the settler from HC? If north island, 2E of corn looks best, at least after border pops. 1E is better if we don't pop borders. But HMiss will make it pop borders soon.

Dude - you're killing me.

Some reminders/suggestions for SH:
[*]Have standby settler and H missionary.
[/list]

PPP Draft - Race to Sankore
...

Drona - Build Missionary, Build 2 Settlers (1 - for Hammy, and 2 - Fish City in South for islam and hindu eventually gift to Toku?), Build 2 Spies

Other notes:
Bolly fine, Vara keep whipping and chopping into Maoi (LH after granery), VJ spearmen and CH, rest look ok.

Agree on specialists.

If we DoW Toku will he send troops out? If so, he'll have 1 axe to worry about, just send two to dismiss the axe then wack any archers that wander out.

We have 2 cities left in need of Hindu + fish. So 3 HMiss + a spare for emergency city gift.