The original Toku (Japan) appeared from the southeast
The second Toku (Babylon) in the northwest.
SGOTM 15 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
The second Toku (Babylon) in the northwest.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I think this can improved by researching Hunting before AH. Hunting finishes while the worker is moving towards the deer. One turn later, he is camping the deer.
Warrior is followed by settler. The settler finishes 1 turn before AH. He can take one move towards the gold site. Before he gets there, we will know if there are horses there. Even if there is not, I think I would still head there with the settler to beat Tofu to the site. With the deer and corn online, we can get a second settler build for a western site if the horses show up there.
After the deer is camped, then I sent the worker down to the grass hill. He has it mined shortly after the settler completes. At this point, we have three improved tiles to build a second worker or second settler while the first worker hoofs over to improve the sheep.
I agree with this. If we see horses, then wheel is next for sure. We will need it for trade routes and to connect the stone.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I played the hunting first scenario out a bit further to see if barbs became a problem.
City 1: warrior -> settler -> warrior (pop to 4) -> worker -> warrior -> warrior (pop 5) -> settler -> worker
City 2 went near the gold: warrior (pop 2) -> worker
City 3 went to gems, settled turn 57.
Worker 1: farm corn -> camp deer -> mine river hill -> pasture sheep at city 2 -> mine gold -> mine hill at city 2 -> connection roads
Worker 2: mine hill at city 1 -> farm flood plains -> head towards city 3 site
Worker 3 and 4: Connecting roads
Research was Hunting -> AH -> BW -> wheel -> pottery (could do masonry as well)
Finished with 7 warriors, 4 workers, 3 cities at turn 57. With this many fogbusters, barbs have not been an issue.
I never revolted to slavery. We could whip the third settler sooner, but there really is nothing good to put the overflow into.
Here is the outcome:
View attachment hawks test through turn 57.CivBeyondSwordSave
City 1: warrior -> settler -> warrior (pop to 4) -> worker -> warrior -> warrior (pop 5) -> settler -> worker
City 2 went near the gold: warrior (pop 2) -> worker
City 3 went to gems, settled turn 57.
Worker 1: farm corn -> camp deer -> mine river hill -> pasture sheep at city 2 -> mine gold -> mine hill at city 2 -> connection roads
Worker 2: mine hill at city 1 -> farm flood plains -> head towards city 3 site
Worker 3 and 4: Connecting roads
Research was Hunting -> AH -> BW -> wheel -> pottery (could do masonry as well)
Finished with 7 warriors, 4 workers, 3 cities at turn 57. With this many fogbusters, barbs have not been an issue.
I never revolted to slavery. We could whip the third settler sooner, but there really is nothing good to put the overflow into.
Here is the outcome:
View attachment hawks test through turn 57.CivBeyondSwordSave
Not sure that this is optimal. If we mine the grass hill and leave the deer alone, then we have three improved tiles and a fourth really useful one.
Htadus
A and L's dad
I am not in favor of going for Hunting either, unless we see another camp resource.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I did get 5 additional warriors built in this short test... there really isn't much else to build while we grow pop. Also, if we are planning to use HR to grow population, we will need health resources as well. If I count correctly, the capital will be -2 health (without deer and assuming chops) once we build a forge.
It is a useful tile, but it could be a good one. +2 bread is a lot to give up. We return on the beaker investment 31 turns after we finish hunting.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I played again and wrote down some dates for comparison. I have not tried the non-Hunting route yet (will try later today). However, I am skeptical it will keep up. Not only does the extra food from the deer speed settler and worker production, it also speeds pop growth while building warriors.
I did tweak second city production in this game. I built warrior-warrior-worker, vs. warrior-worker. This delayed the fourth worker by one turn but allowed growth to pop 3 and got me an extra warrior.
Turn numbers for comparison:
26: warrior -> settler
27: Hunting -> AH
35: settler -> warrior (pop 4)
36: AH -> BW
38: city 2 founded, builds warrior
38: warrior -> worker
43: worker -> warrior
44: warrior -> warrior (pop 5)
47: warrior -> settler
49: BW -> wheel
53: settler -> worker
56: city 3 founded, builds warrior
57: worker -> warrior (pop 6)
58: warrior ->
city 2:
38: warrior
48: warrior -> warrior (pop 3)
50?: warrior -> worker
58: worker ->
city 3:
56: warrior
I did tweak second city production in this game. I built warrior-warrior-worker, vs. warrior-worker. This delayed the fourth worker by one turn but allowed growth to pop 3 and got me an extra warrior.
Turn numbers for comparison:
26: warrior -> settler
27: Hunting -> AH
35: settler -> warrior (pop 4)
36: AH -> BW
38: city 2 founded, builds warrior
38: warrior -> worker
43: worker -> warrior
44: warrior -> warrior (pop 5)
47: warrior -> settler
49: BW -> wheel
53: settler -> worker
56: city 3 founded, builds warrior
57: worker -> warrior (pop 6)
58: warrior ->
city 2:
38: warrior
48: warrior -> warrior (pop 3)
50?: warrior -> worker
58: worker ->
city 3:
56: warrior
Htadus
A and L's dad
Hawk. I agree with you that the growth will be much more significant with extra food but the crucial path is getting the horses and copper secured asap. Those are the true limiting factors with aggressive AI and religious animosity.
Wondering how much those factors are mitigated by this strange map.
Are you factoring in a granary, pigs, and sheep?
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I agree, so I think the quicker we can get two settlers built, the better. My assumption is settler one heads for gold, regardless of location of horses. In both scenarios, the horses are identified before we settle gold. In both scenarios, the copper is identified before we complete the second settler. Bottom line, the hunting first scenario does not slow down hooking up a resource. The critical path is building the settlers, not completing the research to find the resources. If anything, it will speed up our access to a resource because we will have more workers sooner (to road and mine/pasture).
CP said:
I tried to, but I miscounted. It is actually -3, not -2. Game currently has 7 health and 6 happies.
- Health: 7 - 3 forests chopped + 1 pig + 1 sheep + 2 corn - 1 forge = 7
- Happy: 6 + 2 gem + 2 gold = 10
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
By the way, I missed one milestone in my notes. I researched Masonry after Wheel. It was complete on turn 57 or 58, so my workers were about to go quarry the marble for the 6th pop in the capital. I was just starting pottery.
This is the one concern I see with hunting first. One mitigation is building lots of warriors before pottery comes in (at which point we build granaries). The main question in my mind is how far can we grow before we run out of food.
Also, as Htadus points out, we do face potential of an attack from an AI. We will want to build axes/spears for protection. I would prefer building spears rather than cheap warriors to provide happies under HR. We will need them to protect from marauding chariots.
CP said:
This is the one concern I see with hunting first. One mitigation is building lots of warriors before pottery comes in (at which point we build granaries). The main question in my mind is how far can we grow before we run out of food.
Also, as Htadus points out, we do face potential of an attack from an AI. We will want to build axes/spears for protection. I would prefer building spears rather than cheap warriors to provide happies under HR. We will need them to protect from marauding chariots.
Htadus
A and L's dad
For all we know we may be sitting right on top of copper or horses. (I hope not) But I would like to not assume neil was generous with mil resources. He did make us go a long way to get copper last time.
@Hawk.
I see the point you are making about gaining on the techs due to earlier units=earlier improvements= faster techs. Also the reduction of a turn to AH and access to archery if needed. This may warrent further tests beyond the two cities. But again the limiting facts going to be tech rate of the fake Deity Toku that is out there.
BTW all. This game is going to be a masters class of learning how AI operates. Assuming all AI leaders will be a form of Toku, will they all follow the same tech paths or do the AI play the map? Also will be interesting to see how each Toku behave with other Toku's when they found there own religions and converts accordingly. I feel like that kid in the disney commercial. "I am too excited" waiting for next session report.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
You and me both. I really appreciate it when the scenario creator puts in creative, non-standard stuff. Especially since it is a lot more work for him/her (testing for balance, etc.). For a SG, I think it adds an order of magnitude more discussion since we have to toss aside the cookbook. Also adds to the learning opportunity.
"I did get 5 additional warriors built in this short test... there really isn't much else to build while we grow pop." What about a barracks?
Interested to learn your take after testing the non-Hunting approach.
Interested to learn your take after testing the non-Hunting approach.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Yes, Barracks could also be built. My goal was to focus on warriors for fogbusting and cheap MPs for future cities. If we decide we don't need so many, barracks would be another option for growth periods.
CP said:
Good question. I am not able to test at the moment, but looking at my notes, I don't think there would be much delay if horses are available at the gold site but they need to be roaded. If we are lucky enough to get horses at the gold site (and within the inner 9 tiles), we would follow AH with wheel (instead of BW). I assume ~7-8 turns to research it. 2 of these turns, the settler is moving to the site, so 5-6 turns to research wheel after settling the city. During this time, the worker could be pasturing the horses. He then could road once wheel is done. Having said all that, this is happening from turns 38-45 or so. I don't think barbs will be a threat yet. I would rather pasture the sheep before the horses anyhow (so city 2 grows faster).
If there are no horses and we need to research BW, there will be no delay in hooking the copper. In my plan, I completed wheel before the 3rd city settled. (This assumes we will build a second worker before the third settler. If we get in a panic and decide to build a third settler with only one worker, then there might be a delay from researching wheel.)
CP said:
Unfortunately, I'm not sure I will. I never had time today and I am leaving on a business trip tomorrow. If I get a chance before I need to leave, I'll test a bit, but not sure I will have time.
Tested the no-hunting-route and attached my best shot at it (T57). 
Research: AH-Wheel-Masonry-BW-Pottery.
I mined the stone!
Tried to get gold city connected fast, and in some tests Hinduism spread before T57.
I don't think barbs will be a big problem with this map, but did build 7 warriors for comparison.
View attachment Ghandi BC-1720 T57 test 4 no hunting z3.CivBeyondSwordSave
Autolog:
Research: AH-Wheel-Masonry-BW-Pottery.
I mined the stone!
Tried to get gold city connected fast, and in some tests Hinduism spread before T57.
I don't think barbs will be a big problem with this map, but did build 7 warriors for comparison.
View attachment Ghandi BC-1720 T57 test 4 no hunting z3.CivBeyondSwordSave
Autolog:
Spoiler :
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Good result.
In my test, I delayed marble until after BW (assuming we don't find horses and need to find copper). However, I think you are right about the barbs. Getting marble and stone done sooner will make a big difference. Let me try that variation on hunting first.
In my test, I delayed marble until after BW (assuming we don't find horses and need to find copper). However, I think you are right about the barbs. Getting marble and stone done sooner will make a big difference. Let me try that variation on hunting first.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I tried hunting first with marble and wheel before BW. Definitely better than my earler test.
Here is the turn plan in case someone wants to try variations to optimize it. (I forgot to note when AH ended and Masonry began.)
At turn 57, here are the tradeoffs with zamint3's no-hunting approach:
At a high level, I'm half of a tech ahead and have higher hammer production. zamint3 is running at a higher beaker rate, but I will close this shortly. I also have stone available for wonders. I think my outcome is better. However, it means we will not be able to build cheap warriors. If we end up building a lot of warriors, then zamint3's approach will pass mine by.
So the questions to consider:
Here is the turn plan in case someone wants to try variations to optimize it. (I forgot to note when AH ended and Masonry began.)
At turn 57, here are the tradeoffs with zamint3's no-hunting approach:
- My 2nd city settled earlier and has one pop more than zamint3's. I assume I pastured the sheep a few turns earlier.
- In my game, BW finishes as the 3rd settler is in transit to gems. If copper appears in another direction (and we decide we need it), then we might lose a couple of turns diverting the settler. I believe zamint3 had copper visible before he needed to commit the settler to move. (PS. I don't think barbs are an issue. Even if copper appears in another direction, I would argue settling gems next anyhow.)
- I have completed a mine in city 2, zamint3 is still mining it. It will complete in 1 turn, but he has no pop to work it.
- I have an extra grass hill mined in the capital, zamint3 has farmed the FP. I did not need the FP farmed since I had 4 bread from the deer.
- I am running at 23 hammers to zamint3's 17. zamint3 will add 3 hammers in 6 turns when city 2 grows to pop 3. He could mine the hill in the capital, but would have to sacrifice growth to use it (he needs to work the FP).
- zamint3 has roaded the three cities together, I am still roading
- With the trade routes, zamint3 is running at 32 beakers to my 30. I will add 3 beakers in 3-4 turns when I've completed roading
- zamint3 has 1 turn left on pottery, I have 3 turns left. However, I have hunting completed, so to this point I've had more total research. (zamint3 must have just recently finished the roading.)
- zamint3 has a worker on the pigs in city 3, mine is in transit. He will have the pigs up 2 turns before me.
- I have a quarry on the stone, zamint3 has a mine. If we want to build wonders, zamint3 will need to quarry the stone.
- I get health from the deer. Not a factor yet, but maybe later.
- We both have 4 workers and 7 warriors.
- zamint3 has 16 hammers into ToA (doubled for marble), I have 13 into an eight warrior.
At a high level, I'm half of a tech ahead and have higher hammer production. zamint3 is running at a higher beaker rate, but I will close this shortly. I also have stone available for wonders. I think my outcome is better. However, it means we will not be able to build cheap warriors. If we end up building a lot of warriors, then zamint3's approach will pass mine by.
So the questions to consider:
- Given aggressive AI in another religion, do we want spears for defense?
- Do we think we will need a lot of MPs under HR? Will health become the limiting factor?
- Do we need stone for wonders?
