Htadus
A and L's dad
So you guys think a WB can do us more recon huh?
Hope your optimism will lead to some thing.
BTW, what is wrong with Osaka?
Hope your optimism will lead to some thing.
BTW, what is wrong with Osaka?
SGOTM 15 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
We have to research Fishing before we can build a Work Boat?
That would delay Monotheism?
The push to grab Mono will put off the Work Boat.
We can certainly scout west to see what is on the land mass there. Would like to see some part of the map, may help in VC decision?
Also nice to know if we need Astronomy? Sooner we get started, sooner we can make a guess?
The land south has only mountains as it looks, but west looks like land open for exploration! But it can probably wait, we know the mapmaker is evil.
Do we have any way of knowing if Toku and Hammu know anybody else?
Htadus
A and L's dad
The land south has only mountains as it looks, but west looks like land open for exploration! But it can probably wait, we know the mapmaker is evil.
Do we have any way of knowing if Toku and Hammu know anybody else?
AI usually place espionage points on new AI when they meet.
Right now they should be placing 2 points each to us and the other. So if we know that they are placing less than 2 points per turn, they have met another AI.
Concur. Knowledge is often power in Civ.
We're reaching a very important point of the game. Therefore i would wait with z3's turnset until he's back from norway and use the next week, or even longer for testing.
The only thing everybody is agreeing with right now, i think, is, that we can't get rid of toku with just axes.
Other than that, everything is up to debate and should be considered.
I think we are on a good schedule and can afford to do this without getting problems with the deadline.
The only thing everybody is agreeing with right now, i think, is, that we can't get rid of toku with just axes.
Other than that, everything is up to debate and should be considered.
I think we are on a good schedule and can afford to do this without getting problems with the deadline.
Agree. A short delay should be acceptable.
Would like to hear what issues you see and what you think needs testing?
We really do not know how long this game will be at this stage. While I am willing to take a week if necessary, want that to be productive time nailing down issues. Not sure we know enough to at present so interested in your view of our options.
Thinking Z could play through forge completion and pause.
Would like to hear what issues you see and what you think needs testing?
The game settings create alot of situations, few people, if any, have faced before. This is best solved by testing, which is very time consuming.
The one problem for our team is, that everybody has less time to devote to the game than we like. So i'd like to make sure, that everybody has the opportunity to test different approaches before we reach a consensus for the next turns as they are very critical ones.
Couple of things i can think of right now...
When and how will we get to construction and how long would it take to get a resonable force together?
Is pillaging a worthwhile strategy, or should we wait until we have winning numbers?
Which is the best site for our next city to help us with the rush?
Is mids + rush possible?
If yes, should we build it in the cap or another city?
How fast could we build it in other cities?
Just to clarify, i don't think we're doing poorly. I think we made very good progress so far and it would help in this important situation to take our time for the next turnset.
Hope that made any sense.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I think Undecided raises a good point. We are blazing some new trails here. It will be hard to make detailed tests to help with specific turnset plans (I'm assuming our test games are diverging from the real game too much). However, I think it would be worthwhile to make some tests of our broader assumptions. As an example, even though I talked about a pillage only strategy, I can't think of one time I've actually done something like this in a game. I have no idea how well it will actually work. It might be worth some playtesting. I.e. will AI's respond by turtling, or will they send a SOD into our lands? If we send one axe and spear per team, will they attack it?
I think I've thought of something to do this weekend...
I think I've thought of something to do this weekend...
I read about it some time ago and have tried the pillaging strategy. It is tough without horses because it requires a turn to pillage after moving. Without horse units it is nearly impossible to capture Workers once it starts, only at the beginning. It is also more difficult when the AI has more cities. One pillaging team per city works fairly well when the cities are close because it forces the AI to bottle up their workers and keep their settlers in their cities. If you use two unit teams, one Axe and one Spear, you cannot attack enemy units because if you get wounded, it is easier for the AI to break up the team, and it will try to do so if it thinks it can win. A Medic Spear is a nice thing to have in case of wounds. But it certainly can keep the AI in the stone age as they produce a lot of defensive units and have no commerce to speak of, so their economy can tank.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
So I tried this pillaging thing and was not impressed. The AI's were happy to attack my pillage stacks with axes and swords. Even if they don't kill our units, we need to run away and heal which defeats the pillage mission. In any event, I lost several units.
In one case, I sent a stack of 2 axes and 2 spears figuring they would leave it alone. The AI promptly attacked with 2 axes (over a river
) and killed both axes. After that, the spears were toast. In the mean time, they were building lots of units, although the never initiated an attack at our cities.
If we are going to do this, then we need to send big stacks and probably should build barracks to give them better odds. First mission of the big stack has to be finding and unhooking their metal to stop axe production (which means we might need IW). Once they are down to archers only, the stack can split into smaller groups and cover all of the cities. If they happen to settle a city on the metal (like in the test) then I think we will have trouble making this work.
This approach will still be a big investment in hammers. I'm starting to wonder if our best bet is wait for construction, which means we take the risk that they DOW on us. If they do, at least it will be their units dying attacking our axes fortified in cities.
In one case, I sent a stack of 2 axes and 2 spears figuring they would leave it alone. The AI promptly attacked with 2 axes (over a river
) and killed both axes. After that, the spears were toast. In the mean time, they were building lots of units, although the never initiated an attack at our cities.If we are going to do this, then we need to send big stacks and probably should build barracks to give them better odds. First mission of the big stack has to be finding and unhooking their metal to stop axe production (which means we might need IW). Once they are down to archers only, the stack can split into smaller groups and cover all of the cities. If they happen to settle a city on the metal (like in the test) then I think we will have trouble making this work.
This approach will still be a big investment in hammers. I'm starting to wonder if our best bet is wait for construction, which means we take the risk that they DOW on us. If they do, at least it will be their units dying attacking our axes fortified in cities.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Yes Toku will attack with his archers against upto chariots and with his axes on pretty much any early unit.
I still think crippling by taking the two cities is the only true option other than going into defensive posture. It did not help us in the last SG.
I still think crippling by taking the two cities is the only true option other than going into defensive posture. It did not help us in the last SG.
Sounds like pillaging is problematic. We have 3 good and one excellent production cities. Perhaps we should let them grow, build granary (for whipping and growth) and barracks in 2,3, and 4, and wait for IW and cats.
Again, what about playing through building forge?
Again, what about playing through building forge?
Bit surprised Toku was so aggressive. Suppose that his promos give enough advantage to encourage attack. Think we should head for Cats soonest?
Think this might be a good idea.
I think we know we need to play to the point of getting the Forge in Delhi, so do not see a problem with going this far? No matter what we test, think this must be done if goal is still to get AP for denial.I can play tonight and would then follow CP's proposed 'Mono before chop' suggestion.
Opinions?
Yes, this is important.
Think that we will probably not do this based upon Hawk's assessment and Htadus' input?
Thinking we need to build 'mids. Where is a good question? This certainly needs to be tested.
The greater question is VC. Is it time to decide Culture versus Domination? How long do you think we can wait to make the final decision?
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
If we are considering Culture, then we need to start building cottages in a couple of cities immediately. I suspect we will ultimately decide Dom, but cottages are not bad in either case. More problematic for culture is GAs. We are lacking killer GP farms and will need to get to Caste very quickly.
Just don't know nearly enough to decide on VC now. Need to keep options open.
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