Mad Professor
Deity
Excellent question - thanks for prompting my memory. YES - I saw a spear one stage. That suggests he might have copper.
SGOTM 15 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Excellent question - thanks for prompting my memory. YES - I saw a spear one stage. That suggests he might have copper.
Not good news... 
Looking at the graphs at central, some teams may have tried an early rush? Some flat lines for both power and score?
Looking at the graphs at central, some teams may have tried an early rush? Some flat lines for both power and score?
Htadus
A and L's dad
Finally I had a chance to look at the save. Excellent set MP.
Both Gava's Greets us with the mention of Spears. So They do have copper or iron since he seem to beeline iron to secure goods for his Samurai's. Sort of like JC.
We are already at 60% sustainable science. So writing next make best research sense for those pesky scientist specialists. But a deviation for fishing wont harm us badly. It is Alpha we really nead. We can steal a few techs if needed.
In two turns Toku will loose his corn to us and that may make things a bit touchy. So lets cripple hi at the least and that will give us a chance to send a pair of pillagers past his borders. Also he has a third city and that imply more land to the east, which we need to discover.
So that in mind:
Capital can work at size 9 soon so lets build units after the Forge. We should mine the riverside GH to south for extra commerce. I would whip that axe and get the 26 h overflow in the the Forge and the city will grow next turn also. Could delay a granary.
Gold city is also a unit factory now and it will need a fast worker or two to develop a few production tiles. Could delay a granary.
Gem CIty need a road and several farms and mines. Might consider whipping that Monument next turn for 3 turns sooner pigs and a very good production city. Will need a Granary badly.
City 4: I still think a hill city is choice but no major objection to current selected spot. I recommend moving both the warriors on to that tile and wait for settler.
We should use warrior #2 on duty S of Gem city to recon the coastal tiles and at least move by the clams for continued fog busting.
I am probably repeating what was said by others but I am not very focused at the moment and likely have had already forgotton what I read. So please take no offense.
Also if this was a solo game. I would cause more tension by settling a City way up north by 2W1N of wheat tile on a hill.
I would tech archery with that plan. 
Both Gava's Greets us with the mention of Spears. So They do have copper or iron since he seem to beeline iron to secure goods for his Samurai's. Sort of like JC.
We are already at 60% sustainable science. So writing next make best research sense for those pesky scientist specialists. But a deviation for fishing wont harm us badly. It is Alpha we really nead. We can steal a few techs if needed.
In two turns Toku will loose his corn to us and that may make things a bit touchy. So lets cripple hi at the least and that will give us a chance to send a pair of pillagers past his borders. Also he has a third city and that imply more land to the east, which we need to discover.
So that in mind:
Capital can work at size 9 soon so lets build units after the Forge. We should mine the riverside GH to south for extra commerce. I would whip that axe and get the 26 h overflow in the the Forge and the city will grow next turn also. Could delay a granary.
Gold city is also a unit factory now and it will need a fast worker or two to develop a few production tiles. Could delay a granary.
Gem CIty need a road and several farms and mines. Might consider whipping that Monument next turn for 3 turns sooner pigs and a very good production city. Will need a Granary badly.
City 4: I still think a hill city is choice but no major objection to current selected spot. I recommend moving both the warriors on to that tile and wait for settler.
We should use warrior #2 on duty S of Gem city to recon the coastal tiles and at least move by the clams for continued fog busting.
I am probably repeating what was said by others but I am not very focused at the moment and likely have had already forgotton what I read. So please take no offense.
Also if this was a solo game. I would cause more tension by settling a City way up north by 2W1N of wheat tile on a hill.
I would tech archery with that plan. Move both warriors at the gold to the forest SW of gold (city site for City4), move warrior in Vija north to the same tile.
Warrior S of Vija will move to 1NE of banana and keep fog busting the forest 1NW of banana. Warrior NE of Bombay will move to sheep this turn and go revealing the rest of the south coast waters when Bombay borders expand.
Vija: Next turn whip the monument and start granary.
Bombay: One turn axe and then start granary. (City will be good for whipping until GPro comes out and we can work other specialist)
City4: (on the forest 1SW of gold) WB (or granary if we don't go for Fishing
)
Delhi: I'm OK with whipping the axe into forge, then chop 3 forests into forge. (I'm not sure there's time to research Mono before we chop into forge!?)
Workers: (Needs more testing but here are my thoughts)
Worker on stone will road stone and road towards city4
Worker S of corn will chop and then mine grass hill 2S of Delhi and then go to Bombay
Worker NW of Delhi will chop forest N of corn and then go chop forest at Vija into granary.
Worker N of Delhi will chop and then help with roading N
Research: Not sure, need more opinions! (I'm still into Fishing first )
Build in Delhi: Not sure, need more opinions! (I'm still in favor of Mids )
Warrior S of Vija will move to 1NE of banana and keep fog busting the forest 1NW of banana. Warrior NE of Bombay will move to sheep this turn and go revealing the rest of the south coast waters when Bombay borders expand.
Vija: Next turn whip the monument and start granary.
Bombay: One turn axe and then start granary. (City will be good for whipping until GPro comes out and we can work other specialist)
City4: (on the forest 1SW of gold) WB (or granary if we don't go for Fishing
)Delhi: I'm OK with whipping the axe into forge, then chop 3 forests into forge. (I'm not sure there's time to research Mono before we chop into forge!?)
Workers: (Needs more testing but here are my thoughts
)Worker on stone will road stone and road towards city4
Worker S of corn will chop and then mine grass hill 2S of Delhi and then go to Bombay
Worker NW of Delhi will chop forest N of corn and then go chop forest at Vija into granary.
Worker N of Delhi will chop and then help with roading N
Research: Not sure, need more opinions!
(I'm still into Fishing first )Build in Delhi: Not sure, need more opinions!
(I'm still in favor of Mids )
Agree with your ppp.
Been thinking about this game some. Feeling a bit frustrated by the lack of options at this point. Believe we must build AP to deny it to AI and with difficult military options until we get Cats at least. Our research has been driven by religious needs thus far and I feel a bit aimless?
Did some research and believe this map is optimized for cultural victory. Here is why:
1. Plenty of river lines for commerce through cottages.
2. Availability of Stone, Marble and Copper to build Cathedrals with discovery of Music.
3. A wall of mountains along one border, limiting options for recon and discovery, but also protecting us from attack.
4. All of our happy resources are commerce, providing boost to economy.
5. Two civs on our borders that are strong defenders, one with a mid-game UU that could be tough to defend against (Samauri) when they choose to attack.
6. A lot of water, something the AI does not use well in attacking.
The key to fast culture is turning commerce into culture through the sliders and using buildings and wonders as multipliers.
While I am not necessarily advocating for cultural victory, thinking we might want to revisit it before it gets to be too late?
Been thinking about this game some. Feeling a bit frustrated by the lack of options at this point. Believe we must build AP to deny it to AI and with difficult military options until we get Cats at least. Our research has been driven by religious needs thus far and I feel a bit aimless?
Did some research and believe this map is optimized for cultural victory. Here is why:
1. Plenty of river lines for commerce through cottages.
2. Availability of Stone, Marble and Copper to build Cathedrals with discovery of Music.
3. A wall of mountains along one border, limiting options for recon and discovery, but also protecting us from attack.
4. All of our happy resources are commerce, providing boost to economy.
5. Two civs on our borders that are strong defenders, one with a mid-game UU that could be tough to defend against (Samauri) when they choose to attack.
6. A lot of water, something the AI does not use well in attacking.
The key to fast culture is turning commerce into culture through the sliders and using buildings and wonders as multipliers.
While I am not necessarily advocating for cultural victory, thinking we might want to revisit it before it gets to be too late?
"Capital can work at size 9 soon so lets build units after the Forge. No Mids?We should mine the riverside GH to south for extra commerce. Yes. I would whip that axe and get the 26 h overflow in the the Forge and the city will grow next turn also. Only if we decide not to research Mono.Could delay a granary." What's the logic here? Aren't we going to want to whip this city regularly and have those improved tiles back in use ASAP?Vija: Next turn whip the monument and start granary. Concur.
Bombay: One turn axe and then start granary. (City will be good for whipping until GPro comes out and we can work other specialist) Concur.
City4: (on the forest 1SW of gold) WB (or granary if we don't go for Fishing
Delhi: I'm OK with whipping the axe into forge, then chop 3 forests into forge. (I'm not sure there's time to research Mono before we chop into forge!?) Not sure what the time restraints are, but getting OR before we start chopping there would be nice, and OR would certainly continue to help with granary and barracks and library and/or Mids as well. Like delaying whip and chops until we research Mono, then whipping/chopping forge and pausing to decide whether to chop or whip granary.
Workers: (Needs more testing but here are my thoughts
Worker on stone will road stone and road towards city4
Worker S of corn will chop and then mine grass hill 2S of Delhi and then go to Bombay
Worker NW of Delhi will chop forest N of corn and then go chop forest at Vija into granary.
Worker N of Delhi will chop and then help with roading N
Research: Not sure, need more opinions!
Build in Delhi: Not sure, need more opinions!
Htadus
A and L's dad
It is high time deciding on this. AKA kill Toku.Agree with your ppp.
Been thinking about this game some. Feeling a bit frustrated by the lack of options at this point. Believe we must build AP to deny it to AI and with difficult military options until we get Cats at least. Our research has been driven by religious needs thus far and I feel a bit aimless? I beg to differ leif, so far we have been focused on not getting an AP defeat. That is very focused.
Did some research and believe this map is optimized for cultural victory. Here is why:
1. Plenty of river lines for commerce through cottages. Concur
2. Availability of Stone, Marble and Copper to build Cathedrals with discovery of Music.Concur
3. A wall of mountains along one border, limiting options for recon and discovery, but also protecting us from attack. This is true but also makes us potentially get behind in techs well before going into 100% culture phase since we will only get the tech boost for knowing just 2 AI with a particular tech.
4. All of our happy resources are commerce, providing boost to economy.Happy resources are not vey improtant after a while. It is health that becomes and issue.
5. Two civs on our borders that are strong defenders, one with a mid-game UU that could be tough to defend against (Samauri) when they choose to attack.This is the reason to rush him. and not do culture with him around.
6. A lot of water, something the AI does not use well in attacking.Concur
The key to fast culture is turning commerce into culture through the sliders and using buildings and wonders as multipliers.And culture bombing with Artists.
While I am not necessarily advocating for cultural victory, thinking we might want to revisit it before it gets to be too late?
OK more seriously, if we are going to go culture, in this game, Mids is a must and there is no way I am going to give the AP away with its high culture value. The capital and the Gold city would work as 2 reasonable LC cites with Hammer and cottage based culture. If this is a potential option we need to plan now. I am not sold on this but am willing to listen to any argument. I am very comfortable with culture games and can help. Oh yeah, we need Mono real bad for this.
CP, We have 7 turn to build that Forge in the capital. I do not see how we can have mono during that time. In regards to the Granary, I have been noticing that many in the team seem to think we may be better off not whipping the Capital. With a Granary the Capital will need the whip to function. I am in favor of an Axe rush of Tokugava before he decide it. That is going to happen sooner than later.
I actually tested this and I think we can get OR and chop forge just in time to still get the GE before the GPro. (Remember the test save I'm using is slightly ahead in beakers
) What do you want to build until Mono is in? Axes? Settler?
I was hoping for a Hinduism spread. I'm not sure how this works, but I have seen so many different spreading times in testing!
I'm OK with monument.
Edit: Axe rushing Toku sounds like fun. If we decide on that, how many turns before DOW would you say?
Mad Professor
Deity
It's now that time that I would have turned into a pumpkin if I hadn't finished the set yet. I'll be out of touch for a few days. Hopefully I'll be back at you all by the weekend.
I'm all for making a decision on victory type rather soon. We need the AP to prevent religious loss, and that has been our focus so far which is good, but very soon indeed we need to know where we're headed after we've achieved that!
I'm all for making a decision on victory type rather soon. We need the AP to prevent religious loss, and that has been our focus so far which is good, but very soon indeed we need to know where we're headed after we've achieved that!
Being terrible at executing an early rush, what are our chances of success given Toku's defensive promos?
I'm all for taking Toku east out if we can pull it off.
What are the costs of failure?
Htadus
A and L's dad
It is not easy with protective civ. I recently took out SB in a game mainly with chariots. It took 2-3 chariots per archer and there was a occation I lost all 6 chariots to just 2 archers and they were ready for more defending with more promotions.
What is really possible is to cripple him now. He has 3 cities and the 2 new cities will fall much easily than a capital predesigned by a evil map maker to have possibly walls /castles and perhaps added culture. And this will also make him small and he will be wanting to go out and settle more cities during peace times. Once we get cats, all we will need is to kill 1 or 2 more cites to end the Real Toku from the game. And then the culture game begins.......to keep him from comming back to life.
What is really possible is to cripple him now. He has 3 cities and the 2 new cities will fall much easily than a capital predesigned by a evil map maker to have possibly walls /castles and perhaps added culture. And this will also make him small and he will be wanting to go out and settle more cities during peace times. Once we get cats, all we will need is to kill 1 or 2 more cites to end the Real Toku from the game. And then the culture game begins.......to keep him from comming back to life.
That is why I asked about the cost of failure.
Hammers put into units cannot be used for other things and so what is our priority? Think we are giving up 'mids to make this happen and, from what I am reading, that may be OK?
And if we keep Toku east's cities we capture, what are the chances of flipping back by not getting the capital? Have to check, but do any of the target cities have Buddhism yet? If so, we introduce that religion to us and now all civs will have it, making it imperative that we get the AP to avoid AP loss?
edit - and what happens to our economy and research rate?
I'm so confused...
Hammers put into units cannot be used for other things and so what is our priority? Think we are giving up 'mids to make this happen and, from what I am reading, that may be OK?
And if we keep Toku east's cities we capture, what are the chances of flipping back by not getting the capital? Have to check, but do any of the target cities have Buddhism yet? If so, we introduce that religion to us and now all civs will have it, making it imperative that we get the AP to avoid AP loss?
edit - and what happens to our economy and research rate?
I'm so confused...
Please explain "to keep him from coming back to life."
Htadus
A and L's dad
I am refering to the "City flip after Conquest" option that Master Neal Hobbit given us for the fun of it.
jk neal.Also the reason I think that Toku may be able to settle more ciities is that neal may have given him more room to east.
leif, I think there is too much to gain from a backwards and crippled Toku of real Samurais. The thing is once the culture expand in gold city, he will gear up to war anyways. So lets jump on him before he jump on us. The one on the top hurts less.
As for the Mids, we can try to build it in the gem city. I say Try because if we do loose it, then our tech rate go up for a short duration. If we get it then we got it.
Ok, what do others think about this?
Would like to see a successful rush.
Would like to see a successful rush.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
Sorry, I am having trouble seeing an axe rush without cats. The problem is those damn protective archers, also our lack of OB to scout and preposition units. I put together a quick WB test to test 8 scenarios.
First 4 were unpromoted axes vs. 25% fortified Togu archers in the following cities:
City with no culture on a flat tile: 20.6%
City with no culture on a hill: 6.6%
Capital with 40% culture on a flat tile: 7.5%
Capital with 40% culture on a hill: 1.8%
I repeated these with a city raider 1 axes vs. 25% fortified Togu archers:
City with no culture on a flat tile: 26%
City with no culture on a hill: 14.5%
Capital with 40% culture on a flat tile: 16.3%
Capital with 40% culture on a hill: 2.5%
Maybe we can carve off Osaka with 6-7 axes because we can preposition and maybe beat a whip (I would still bring 9 in case of a whip). However we can't preposition on his other cities without OB so they will whip. I think we need to assume we will find 4-5 archers in city 3 and 5-6 archers in his capital. We will need a gazillion axes if his capital is on a hill. And remember, if an archer survives and promotes, life gets ugly.
In the mean time, we will also need to build a few extra axes to defend our northernmost city. I would think an attack on Togu might cause Hammatogu to DOW. 9 axes for attack, 2-3 to defend against the other AI. Given AP, forge for GE, etc. where will we get hammers for all these axes? And all we gain is one city, unless we build a bunch more axes.
Maybe instead of an axe-rush, the best we can do is an axe-pester. I.e. build a couple of axes to defend our edge cities, then send mini-stacks of 1-2 axes and a spear in to pillage the crap out of him. Might as well do it to both AI's at the same time. We don't even try to take cities, only goal is to backwards them. Still a lot of hammers: 2 axes as defenders, 2-4 axes and 2 spears as pillagers. At least in this scenario we are backwarding both AI rather than just one. Also, we will probably build this many axes just to defend against their DOW. Heck, maybe we can time our DOWs to grab a worker from each AI.
One last thought on Sami's. Since we have MC, we can always go for machinery to get xBows to partially offset their UU. Of course, denying them iron would work too.
First 4 were unpromoted axes vs. 25% fortified Togu archers in the following cities:
City with no culture on a flat tile: 20.6%
City with no culture on a hill: 6.6%
Capital with 40% culture on a flat tile: 7.5%
Capital with 40% culture on a hill: 1.8%
I repeated these with a city raider 1 axes vs. 25% fortified Togu archers:
City with no culture on a flat tile: 26%
City with no culture on a hill: 14.5%
Capital with 40% culture on a flat tile: 16.3%
Capital with 40% culture on a hill: 2.5%
Maybe we can carve off Osaka with 6-7 axes because we can preposition and maybe beat a whip (I would still bring 9 in case of a whip). However we can't preposition on his other cities without OB so they will whip. I think we need to assume we will find 4-5 archers in city 3 and 5-6 archers in his capital. We will need a gazillion axes if his capital is on a hill. And remember, if an archer survives and promotes, life gets ugly.
In the mean time, we will also need to build a few extra axes to defend our northernmost city. I would think an attack on Togu might cause Hammatogu to DOW. 9 axes for attack, 2-3 to defend against the other AI. Given AP, forge for GE, etc. where will we get hammers for all these axes? And all we gain is one city, unless we build a bunch more axes.
Maybe instead of an axe-rush, the best we can do is an axe-pester. I.e. build a couple of axes to defend our edge cities, then send mini-stacks of 1-2 axes and a spear in to pillage the crap out of him. Might as well do it to both AI's at the same time. We don't even try to take cities, only goal is to backwards them. Still a lot of hammers: 2 axes as defenders, 2-4 axes and 2 spears as pillagers. At least in this scenario we are backwarding both AI rather than just one. Also, we will probably build this many axes just to defend against their DOW. Heck, maybe we can time our DOWs to grab a worker from each AI.
One last thought on Sami's. Since we have MC, we can always go for machinery to get xBows to partially offset their UU. Of course, denying them iron would work too
.Sorry, I am having trouble seeing an axe rush without cats. The problem is those damn protective archers, also our lack of OB to scout and preposition units. I put together a quick WB test to test 8 scenarios. Concur. In ignorance it seems problematic.
Maybe we can carve off Osaka with 6-7 axes because we can preposition and maybe beat a whip (I would still bring 9 in case of a whip). In the mean time, we will also need to build a few extra axes to defend our northernmost city. I would think an attack on Togu might cause Hammatogu to DOW. 9 axes for attack, 2-3 to defend against the other AI. Given AP, forge for GE, etc. where will we get hammers for all these axes? And all we gain is one city, unless we build a bunch more axes. And we don't want Osaka anyway.
Maybe instead of an axe-rush, the best we can do is an axe-pester. I.e. build a couple of axes to defend our edge cities, then send mini-stacks of 1-2 axes and a spear in to pillage the crap out of him. Might as well do it to both AI's at the same time. Also, we will probably build this many axes just to defend against their DOW. Concur, we can't afford to risk not building some.Heck, maybe we can time our DOWs to grab a worker from each AI. Yes, and this would be worth waiting a few turns for.
One last thought on Sami's. Since we have MC, we can always go for machinery to get xBows to partially offset their UU. Of course, denying them iron would work too
So, is we go with the "pester" tactic, where does that leave us regarding the Mids? Can we wait until we have Mono and a forge built to decide?
BTW, concur with leif's observation that this could be a "Cultural" map with some early war fighting necessary to succeed (and keep it interesting).
I haven't played many culture games, so I have no idea if it's a good idea.
Hawks arguments sounds pretty convincing, and I don't think we want any of Toku's cities except maybe his capital. (and remember: No razing!) all though Osaka might very well flip anyway, I've had it happening on T85 in tests.
I'm pretty sure we can have Mono in 6 turns and Forge in 7 (T72) which should be early enough to get the GE before the GPro, meanwhile Delhi can build two axes and we'll have another ready for whipping in Bombay. My only concern is that we don't get an early WB for recon.
Hawks arguments sounds pretty convincing, and I don't think we want any of Toku's cities except maybe his capital. (and remember: No razing!) all though Osaka might very well flip anyway, I've had it happening on T85 in tests.
I would say yes.
I'm pretty sure we can have Mono in 6 turns and Forge in 7 (T72) which should be early enough to get the GE before the GPro, meanwhile Delhi can build two axes and we'll have another ready for whipping in Bombay. My only concern is that we don't get an early WB for recon.
Agree with pestering them. The only thing is that I have done this and it does keep them pretty well backward. We just need to watch the size of the force needed and the maintenance associated with it. I have had my economy hurt by too many units out pestering. Especially if the enemy territory is bigger than expected. We can deal with that as we go. Grabbing a Worker or two would be very nice.
My concern as well. How long do we have to put this off for?
Unless you want to build a boat before monument in city4, wkbt is not being put off at all.
Similar threads
