SGOTM 15 - Xteam

I think reserach is the priority right now. So the next city should be working the gem mine 4 turns after being founded. I would choose the site that is not coastal but more importantly, keep gems in the inner 9 tiles.

CP, axe rush is very viable still.

leif and Hawk, I do not think that, mids and an axe rush should be considered mutually exclusive. neil gave us an awsome opportunity with no city razing. follow and AI settler party with 4 axes and it is ours on the 2nd turn after it is founded.

Let the capital we should let cities grow into red faces and whip workers/settlers or anything else. We can expand and build wonders with overflow too.
 
"follow and AI settler party with 4 axes and it is ours on the 2nd turn after it is founded." Understand how this would work, but where would the AI found a city that we would want? Perhaps better to kill the archers and get a worker from the settler.
 
Cactus Pete said:
"follow and AI settler party with 4 axes and it is ours on the 2nd turn after it is founded." Understand how this would work, but where would the AI found a city that we would want? Perhaps better to kill the archers and get a worker from the settler.
Click to expand...

Done that too. Specially if it look like they are heading to a hill. In this game we really have to control where the barbs settle. Those cities get 4 archers from get go. Also I am not opposed to settling a city way up north asap. I found it very hard to rush bowmen with axes.
 
At the risk of dragging things out a little, I want to revisit more thoroughly the location of the city we are about to settle. I don't think we've really got on top of that one yet.

An important question to answer is "How vital is a coastal location?" I say this because a site NE of the gem on the river includes lot of hills (production), puts the gems within the inner nine tiles (the gems can be developed and used immediately) and otherwise seems like a good spot as it still has the pigs in the fat cross. However it is not coastal. We will be later building anything that can explore the coast, and later building anything that can get troops more quickly up the coast. I think if we can answer the question about the importance of a coastal location, we might have an answer to where to put the city. If having it coastal outweighs the other considerations, well and good, but if not...?

Edit: Otherwise I will be looking at getting out a couple of workers, studying wheel -> PH and trying to organise pre-chops and workers so that we will be able get through the PH/oracle/forge sequence quickly. Even if I don't play that far, the workers need to be organised meanwhile.
 
Can live with NE of Gems, however, am concerned with getting a scouting WB, at least, out to find other civs and check the land to the west. We may find useful resources there, or another Toku variant civ.

If we choose to rush Toku, it looks like his capital may be oceanfront property? An established city on the coast may suffice, but the need for ocean going recon is a reality, imnsho. :)

Just had a close look at the save for Toku east's capital and there is a line of mountains to the south and west of Toku east's capital. Wondering if we are locked in around an inland sea with a single outlet? :hmm:
 
This is much easier with a test save to step through it on, but let me just step through it here. Here's some basic facts:

1. If I change Bombay to worker and revolt to slavery, we can whip one in Bombay in 4 turns, and the worker just started in Delhi will also complete in four turns.
2. In four turns time we'll be one turn into priesthood leaving only 3 turns to go on that.
3. No roads can be built for three turns until we get wheel.
4. We want a worker to shadow the settler to do the gems (assuming we settle where they are in our culture straight away).
5. We have three forest near Bombay that could be chopped for Oracle and there are forests near Delhi which could be chopped for a forge.
6. We will also need a road connection from the Marble to Bombay in time to start the oracle.

The worker on the stone can afford one turn's work near Delhi before chasing the settler and arriving in time to start mining gems the same turn the new city is settled. That takes care of developing the gems but leaves the stone undeveloped.

The worker currently on the hill could head to one of the forests near Bombay and start chopping. Once finished that, he could start on roads from Bombay towards Delhi. The worker produced in Delhi could immediately start on roads towards Bombay from Delhi, meeting the other one in the middle. 8 worker turns have got to go into these roads - that's 4 turns with 2 workers.

The worker that would be whipped in Bombay would go straight to chopping more forests near Bombay.

I'm not sure exactly how many turns that adds up to but I think I'd be starting the oracle the turn after getting PH with the marble connected to Bombay. The pre-chopped forests would fall quickly with the Bombay worker and the two roading workers available to fell them.

How can I do that better?
 
I did a quick update on the test save:
View attachment Ghandi BC-1880 test game T53 z3.CivBeyondSwordSave
I'm a bit ahead on research but production and worker positions should be about right. :crazyeye:
(Edit: Forgot the copper under the capital :blush:)

I think we'll have Wheel + Priesthood in 7 turns and Pottery in another 4 (T64)

Played on until T77:

City 3 NE of gems
Delhi: Worker-Settler-Forge (T70)-Mids (T77)
Bombay: Worker-Barracks-Oracle (T65)
City 4 on the hill 2S of northern Deer.

Can be improved, will have another go later today, and comment on worker moves. :)

Off to work........... :ack:
 
Hi guys. I just want to ask if we are willing to gift the AP city to one of the Toku's?

If so we need to infect it with our religion and also found it in a place that will not grow that big. This will leave the potential to go for a AP victory. I have nothing to add to what has been said and like the idea about putting overflow from axe whip to Oracle or other WW.
 
Cactus Pete said:
Z, wish you would try to work in building axes until near completion and then whipping overage into settler and Oracle.
Click to expand...

I'll see what I can do here playing with Z's test save. Whipping a worker in Bombay then shortly after trying to do an axe with overflow into the Oracle sounds heavy, but I'll see how it comes up. Could whip one with overflow into forge in Delhi once oracle is in, but how much do we want to whip Delhi? I'll play around with it and see. I don't think this will produce a great result...
 
Sorry I did't get back to it yesterday, but I will test today. :mischief:

I share MP's concern about whipping. Delhi is working so many nice tiles we don't want to whip away. ;)

I'm still in for the AP gifting idea. :D
 
Do we need those axes for power upbuild to deter Toku from DOWing? :confused:

I played two test until T77 (earliest completion of Mids). I really don't want to use the whip in Delhi and there's no time to put enough hammers into an axe in Bombay before Oracle (we need roads before we can build axe) but 1-pop whipping the barracks into Oracle in Bombay looks very good. :)

I think we want the Mids and Representation, being Philosophical we should be running specialist. :mischief:


Test1: No whip in Delhi, no axe :
View attachment Ghandi BC-0950 T77 Settler-Oracle-Forge-Mids no whip in Capital z3.CivBeyondSwordSave

Test2: One whip in Delhi, one axe :
View attachment Ghandi BC-0950 T77 Oracle-Settler-Forge-Axe-Mids z3.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
My suggestions in blue :crazyeye: :
Mad Professor said:
This is much easier with a test save to step through it on, but let me just step through it here. Here's some basic facts:

1. If I change Bombay to worker and revolt to slavery, we can whip one in Bombay in 4 turns, and the worker just started in Delhi will also complete in four turns. Concur
2. In four turns time we'll be one turn into priesthood leaving only 3 turns to go on that. Wheel in 4 and Priesthood in 3 (T60) would be fine.
3. No roads can be built for three turns until we get wheel. We wont be ready to road until the worker comes out of Delhi
4. We want a worker to shadow the settler to do the gems (assuming we settle where they are in our culture straight away). I would let the worker on the stone complete the quarry and send the other worker straight to the gems.
5. We have three forest near Bombay that could be chopped for Oracle and there are forests near Delhi which could be chopped for a forge. The two forest in our cultural border is enough if we whip the barracks into Oracle, you have to let Bombay build something else (maybe ToA for fail gold) for one turn to allow Bombay to regrow to pop 3
6. We will also need a road connection from the Marble to Bombay in time to start the oracle. Workers from Delhi (grass NE) and Bombay (gold) should start roading asap and the worker on the stone should join them when quarry is done, this will connect Bombay the same turn we research Priesthood :)
After roading two of them go chopping at Bombay and the last one go chopping at Delhi.
The worker on the gems should finish gems and then connect City3 before chopping or maybe even build road all the way to Delhi to aid spread of Hinduism.
Click to expand...

I get Oracle done T64 same turn we research Pottery. :) Note that the test save I uploaded has more beakers into The Wheel than the real save, but I think we should be able to complete Pottery T64. (Remember to work the gems when City3 is founded NE of gems)

In Delhi I would go Worker (T57)-Settler (T63)-One turn on Mids-Forge-Mids (T77).

But Delhi can be done in many variations. ;)
 
I took Z's 1880BC test save and played to Oracle T64. (I also added the copper under Delhi)

I developed gems near new city before stone near Delhi - I think this helped getting pottery a bit quicker and therefore got the oracle a bit quicker because we can't get the oracle before we get pottery.
I used all three forests near Bombay for the Oracle.
I hooked up marble to Bombay the same turn we got priesthood - I whipped the barracks in Bombay with 28 hammer overflow (doubled by marble) into the oracle
I completed Oracle the same turn we got Pottery, and took MC with oracle.

This might not be the same as the real game because I think Z's test save was afew beakers ahead of the real game on tech. In the real game I might have to delay the last chop a turn to make sure we don't get oracle before pottery, and the Oracle would be on T65.

In Delhi I got an axe built, and pre-chopped two forests ready to get forge quickly.

Here's the T64 test save:

View attachment Ghandi BC-1440 test oracle T64.CivBeyondSwordSave

Can I do it better?
 
Server wouldn't let me on earlier.

Mad Professor said:
I developed gems near new city before stone near Delhi - I think this helped getting pottery a bit quicker and therefore got the oracle a bit quicker because we can't get the oracle before we get pottery. Yes, we need gems before we need stone.
I used all three forests near Bombay for the Oracle.
I hooked up marble to Bombay the same turn we got priesthood - I whipped the barracks in Bombay with 28 hammer overflow (doubled by marble) into the oracle
I completed Oracle the same turn we got Pottery, and took MC with oracle. Suspect that you will do a bit better building barracks almost to completion, because you'll have the use of the to-be-whipped citizen longer.

In Delhi I got an axe built, and pre-chopped two forests ready to get forge quickly. Is forge more critical than settler? Perhaps chops should go into settler and then switch back to forge.
Click to expand...

If you have an extra turn somewhere, suggest you get one turn of an axe built, so can whipp immediately in emergency.

Interested that in both Z's test, Osaka did not flip, despite our extreme cultural influence. Anyone know what kind of factors and odds are operating here?
 
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