SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

im against conversion, cause of the risky oracle-situation

I forgot that problem. You're right.

About Folket's PPP: With a road on the forest SW of Paris, the settler can be on his target site (the riverside hill) in the same turn he's built. Once he arrives there, you set the research to 0 for 2 turns. That will give us enough gold to research 100% for many turns.

 

[ZPV]

Re: conversion - fair enough. The diplo benefit probably isn't worth the added risk.

Blubmuz:
edit: deleted this bit because it was wrong. Your suggestion of 2 turns of 0% is quite right.
I don't really like that road. It can speed up the founding of Orleans by a turn (if we also chop a forest right away), but delays its already slow tile improvements by 2 turns. I'll try it out in testing, but my instinct is that getting the farms sooner is more important.

 

[Folket]

Old PPP
t 25
move worker to 1NE of paris and build road for one turn,
start settler in Paris
t 26
move worker to 1W of Paris
t 27
chop 1W of Paris
t 30
farm FP
t32
Pottery finished, start writing
t 34
move settler to FP
Revolt to slavery

Warrior will go W, W, SW, W, then try to go on hills and forests in a circle a few (2-3) squares from oasis. After completing circle it will scout SE to jungle then continue south to find Brennus. Will try to avoid battles except for wolves.

Will not convert to hinduism if Brennus wants. Will agree to open border with any AI we meet.

Will stop the turnset if I met an AI border or settler close to our city site or loose my warrior.

 

[BLubmuz]

Blubmuz:
edit: deleted this bit because it was wrong. Your suggestion of 2 turns of 0% is quite right.
I don't really like that road. It can speed up the founding of Orleans by a turn (if we also chop a forest right away), but delays its already slow tile improvements by 2 turns. I'll try it out in testing, but my instinct is that getting the farms sooner is more important.

I'm reading just now.
IMO, the reasoning has to be: if a cheap improvement can speed the foundation of a city by 1 turn, it has to take precedence. This will probably have not much impact on Paris, but a big impact on Orleans, which can start anything 1 turn earlier. Also, being our 2nd city, as soon as it is founded we gain 2c of commerce in both cities.

Then, slavery: if we revolt once Folket restarts, Paris will lose only 1 turn working corn and a unimproved tile.
So it can whip the settler to 2 turns to completion and we gain another turn (see above) and a lot of hammers will overflow into the worker, which will be completed 3 or 4 turns after the settler.

This is the stronger opening possible, test any other variant, it will be weaker. pity for the worker turns lost on that hill.

 

[ZPV]

I'm reading just now.
IMO, the reasoning has to be: if a cheap improvement can speed the foundation of a city by 1 turn, it has to take precedence. This will probably have not much impact on Paris, but a big impact on Orleans, which can start anything 1 turn earlier. Also, being our 2nd city, as soon as it is founded we gain 2c of commerce in both cities.

Then, slavery: if we revolt once Folket restarts, Paris will lose only 1 turn working corn and a unimproved tile.
So it can whip the settler to 2 turns to completion and we gain another turn (see above) and a lot of hammers will overflow into the worker, which will be completed 3 or 4 turns after the settler.

This is the stronger opening possible, test any other variant, it will be weaker. pity for the worker turns lost on that hill.

The immediate commerce impact of Orleans is small - 3 maintenance and 4 commerce. The argument has to be about food and hammers. (realistically just food, since more food => more hammers).

The slavery argument about what we lose on the turn is plain wrong. If all else is equal, then any time we are working an unimproved tile is as strong as any other.
(For a thought experiment, imagine a city which grows at 1pop/turn, and every extra citizen adds a hammer. What turn should we revolt on? It doesn't matter if we do it at pop1 or pop19 because we end up with the same hammer total at the end (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ... + 18 + 19 + 20 and one turn of revolt from the first 21 turns).)

The bit about whipping the settler though is relevant, but I'll have to test this. It's a bold claim to say it's stronger than any other opening, and I've got to check it unless you say you've already done it. It definitely gives us fewer hammers in the following worker than slow-building the settler and whipping the worker, but maybe a couple of turns in Orleans can make up for that.

 

[Folket]

I have tried that variant. Problem with revolt and whip settler was that commerce was lost. I prefer the not revolt play, but if we can get the second worker much faster this might be the way to go. I will need to test it to see how the timings are.

Building the road will cost 2 food in Paris and 2-4 more in Orleans from having it's farms delayed. But having Orleans one turn earlier will give us 3 food, 2 hammers and 1 commerce. I find this one to be a very close call.

 

[BLubmuz]

The bit about whipping the settler though is relevant, but I'll have to test this. It's a bold claim to say it's stronger than any other opening, and I've got to check it unless you say you've already done it. It definitely gives us fewer hammers in the following worker than slow-building the settler and whipping the worker, but maybe a couple of turns in Orleans can make up for that.

It's bold because i am

I did it and i reported it in the post where i show my tests results some 3 pages or more below.

The main goal was to have the worker out faster. But with this variant (revolt immediately and whip the settler 2 turns before it's ready, right after the chop) Orleans was founded in the same turn it was founded in the no-slavery variant, with the difference that the revolt was already done. The other difference is that the worker is ready 3 turns after the settler. This is what i wrote at the time.

Also, about the road SW, that forest (but that tile, in any case) with a road will save 1 turn of move for any unit goin' S or W for all the game. Being those the directions we'll use in the opening, i see it as a strategic improvement.

Then, the road + the whip will save 1 turn on Orleans founding, with the civic revolt already done.

 

[ZPV]

It's bold because i am

I did it and i reported it in the post where i show my tests results some 3 pages or more below.

The main goal was to have the worker out faster. But with this variant (revolt immediately and whip the settler 2 turns before it's ready, right after the chop) Orleans was founded in the same turn it was founded in the no-slavery variant, with the difference that the revolt was already done. The other difference is that the worker is ready 3 turns after the settler. This is what i wrote at the time.

Also, about the road SW, that forest (but that tile, in any case) with a road will save 1 turn of move for any unit goin' S or W for all the game. Being those the directions we'll use in the opening, i see it as a strategic improvement.

Then, the road + the whip will save 1 turn on Orleans founding, with the civic revolt already done.

The reason I don't see the general strategic value in the road is I don't imagine many units coming out of Paris and going south or west very soon.

Is this the test you are talking about Blubmuz? It was the headline date of t36 Orleans which made me discount it, for which I'm sorry.

test2:
the starting build queue for Paris and the first worker tasks were the same as test1.
differencies:
- revolted to slavery right after BW was in
- whipped the settler for Orleans (thus founded on turn 36, which is the same as test1 but with the civics change) at 2 turns to completion, to have the worker ready 3 turns before test1
then paris built the settler for Lyons, founded on turn 55 (1 earlier)
But Orleans can build a warrior and start SH before the Oracle finished on turn 58 (2 chops).

The unwhipped roadless settler is due to found Orleans on turn 36, with the revolt on t35 and the worker due to be whipped on t39 with 9 hammers of overflow available the next turn.

Whipping the settler gains in that you don't need to acquire 60 hammers' worth in the worker and then spend an extra turn to produce it, but loses by being at size 2 for several more turns.
If you want to save a turn on the settler, you have to whip it with 3 turns to go, not 2, to compensate for the turn revolting to slavery.

I'm testing an adaptation of the above (since those worker moves are no longer appropriate) and it's worth considering - Orleans gets founded on t34 and the second worker finishes on t38 instead of t39. (I've been finishing the mine, then chopping the NW forest, building the SW road, farming the wheat, and the 2nd worker mines the forest hill. If you replace the SW road with a W road (also chopping that tile instead), you can add in a half-road on the corn.)

Playing both saves on to t50 the comparison looks like this:

Spoiler :

whip settler:
t50:
Orleans has wheat farm, 6/7 turns on a FP farm
Paris has mine/mine/farm+road+prechopped shared forest
Orleans: size 3; 22/26food, 38 hammers
Paris: size 4; 9/28 food; library; 1 warrior and 7/15 in another; 6GPP.
53 gold; 9 beakers past writing.

whip worker:
t50:
wheat farm; FP farm, 1 turn into another task at Orleans.
Paris has mine/mine/farm+2 scattered worker turns - one on the grassland river, one prechopping the shared forest. The scattered turns are the cost of keeping the SW forest to chop later into Orleans; I'm not sure if this is worth it.
Orleans: size 3; 12/26 food, 33 hammers
Paris: size 4; 8/28 food, library, 2 warriors and 1/15; 6GPP
51 gold; 15 beakers past writing.

Comparison:
whipped settler:
+9 food in Orleans
+3 hammers in Orleans
+1 food in Paris
+road
whipped worker:
+9 hammers in Paris
+4 gold+science
2nd Parisian warrior before the library
different partial improvements

Spoiler :

whipping the settler with 2 turns to go instead of 3 is definitely not better - the worker arrives on the same turn but you trade 4f and 2h in Orleans for 1h in Paris and 4 gold+science

I'm not sure which of these is better - it'd definitely be the whipped settler if there were no barbs, but with them I can't say with certainty.

 

[BLubmuz]

The reason I don't see the general strategic value in the road is I don't imagine many units coming out of Paris and going south or west very soon.

Is this the test you are talking about Blubmuz? It was the headline date of t36 Orleans which made me discount it, for which I'm sorry.

I began to suppose you has overlooked the post you quoted, which is the one i was referring to.

Let's start from the beginning:
first, i never considered to mine the hill where the worker is now, but since he's there, better he finishes.
Now, you're forced to build an half road on the corn, to avoid a complete waste of one move. Then, move the worker W or SW and it's another forced move on a forest. I see that you plan to chop W.
The reason why i whipped the settler to 2 turns to completion was that i farmed the FP after the SW road and and the chop of the riverside hill was completed the turn before i whipped, otherwise i couldn't. If we manage to not farm the FP (we have another 4 units tile, the unfamous mine) you can probably a) chop W, 2) road SW, 3) chop the hill for PARIS.

Then, another thing which did not made me regret to let writing last was the barb activity, very intense in my test, thus i built many warriors for MP and fogbusting. I wouldn't have find the time to build libraries.

One last thing: have you considered the discount we have on writing by having both PH and pottery?

 

[ZPV]

I began to suppose you has overlooked the post you quoted, which is the one i was referring to.

Let's start from the beginning:
first, i never considered to mine the hill where the worker is now, but since he's there, better he finishes.
Now, you're forced to build an half road on the corn, to avoid a complete waste of one move. Then, move the worker W or SW and it's another forced move on a forest. I see that you plan to chop W.
The reason why i whipped the settler to 2 turns to completion was that i farmed the FP after the SW road and and the chop of the riverside hill was completed the turn before i whipped, otherwise i couldn't. If we manage to not farm the FP (we have another 4 units tile, the unfamous mine) you can probably a) chop W, 2) road SW, 3) chop the hill for PARIS.

Chop-road-chop (or similar) is an interesting idea. You can use the sped-up worker to catch up the turns on the FP farm, and there's just about enough food to go around.
With the extra chop, there is more production, so it's easier to produce warriors and the library. There's a limit to how many pre-Maths forests we really want to chop, but I think we can stretch this one more.
The one thing I want to change is that the plains forest hill shouldn't be one of those first two chops. We're not ready to spend 4 more worker turns on another mine yet, so it's best to leave that one for now so that we don't need to walk onto that tile twice.

How does a 2-chop variant with the settler not whipped work? My guess is not as well. I'll need to try it, but it's too late tonight.

Then, another thing which did not made me regret to let writing last was the barb activity, very intense in my test, thus i built many warriors for MP and fogbusting. I wouldn't have find the time to build libraries.

One last thing: have you considered the discount we have on writing by having both PH and pottery?

Umm well I did have the time to build a library.
The most important fogbuster is 1E of the deer. We need that guy ASAP. That blocks off the whole western side of our land. One more from Paris will make the north safe enough - there's a convenient forest hill to plant an emergency warrior on if we need it. Paris doesn't need MP until size 5.
Orleans has the production to build us warriors to take care of the south - two built fogbusters plus our initial warrior should allow us to keep our immediate surroundings spawn-free, depending on the land - it looks like Gems-SW might be a good spot, plus Orleans 3S2W if there's no other safe spot, and one further west.

Yes, I considered the discount, but having an early library with scientists is far more powerful, techwise. You should almost always beeline the things you need most, then use the spoils of the beeline to backfill more quickly.
-----------
@Folket:
I'd guess the gems-spot is where you should send our initial warrior, after it's uncovered the oasis area, because we really don't want a barbarian city spawning there. I don't think going SW to look for Brennus is quite as time-critical.

 

[Folket]

I see. Perhaps someone can post a screen with suggested spawn bust locations that we then can talk around.

I have not tried any double chops around Paris, So many variants, when is this turnset going to get played.

I'm not fully recovered but I'm back to work so I do not have great amount of time to run variants. But I will try a double chop tonight.

 

[Shaandore]

I'm sorry guys for my passivity lately. I'm very busy in RL. Perhaps this weekend I will have a couple spare hours to run a test (I will actually have a 4-day holiday due to national holiday on 23rd october). Based on your test results, I prefer the maximal safety route, because we will encounter many barbs unless we spawnbust efficiently. So if worker whip brings in more warriors earlier, then that is the way to go IMO.

 

[BSPollux]

just a reminder:
"Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. **"

 

[unclethrill]

just a reminder:
"Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. **"

That gives us until 11/21 so we should be good. Things should start to roll along soon

 

[Folket]

I think so to. We have until turn 60 pretty much mapped out. We are just ironing the details right now.

 

[Folket]

By not finishing the mine and immidiate start choping forest around Paris and revolting I was able to get Orleans in turn 32 and get more warriors out earlier to spawnbust.

 

[BLubmuz]

By not finishing the mine and immidiate start choping forest around Paris and revolting I was able to get Orleans in turn 32 and get more warriors out earlier to spawnbust.

Sounds interesting. Some more detail, please.

Pollux is right in remainding we're slow. I planned to post a "1 month is gone" today, but he beaten me. In any case, 1 month is gone and we've played only the first TS. Time to move on.

 

[BSPollux]

If we run into problems somewhen we will need a time-buffer we dont have yet. like if someone DOWs us. I'd say we should aim for 11/11 so that we have 10 days for 'whatif'.

So that is 21 days from now on. so like 20+ every week from now on.

get going

Edit:
Sidenote: Im going to play Civ5 now and I am at 996h played. So I will play my 1000th hour today, hurray!

 

[Folket]

I will post some more details of the "chop a lot" strat when I get home tonight.

 

[unclethrill]

I will post some more details of the "chop a lot" strat when I get home tonight.

Can't wait to see it!