SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I did, but I did not see you writing how you got Archery.

Well played btw. Now it is time for unclethrill to warmonger.

I opened with a round of trades: sell our WM to both our neighbours for 40g each (Brennus had 70. so i think that was its value), then asked for Archery and Brennus was pleased to help. I noticed Ram has 2 gpt, so i offered Deers and he happily accepted.
Lastly, changed an excess clams for spices.
Note that this is last turn of forced peace.

About the war, we must start from 3 points:
- Rheims moving S to the city just S of it
- Rheims moving SW in direction of Tolosa
- Uzbek moving E to Gergovia

We need also to be careful about possible troops teleported in the wrong place and keep some backup unit here and there.

 

[ZPV]

About the war, we must start from 3 points:
- Rheims moving S to the city just S of it
- Rheims moving SW in direction of Tolosa
- Uzbek moving E to Gergovia

Why?
What timeframe will we capture Bibracte on, if we do this? I worry that it will take us longer to build stacks for three cities than one larger stack to run through several.

We need also to be careful about possible troops teleported in the wrong place and keep some backup unit here and there.

Brennus has no units in our land. We can send one musket to cover if a unit does decide to go exploring.

 

[BLubmuz]

Why?
What timeframe will we capture Bibracte on, if we do this? I worry that it will take us longer to build stacks for three cities than one larger stack to run through several.

Brennus has no units in our land. We can send one musket to cover if a unit does decide to go exploring.

If you look at the map, you can see that we can move from the direction i indicated and converge to Tolosa. Then we have a single stack for Bibracte.
While we can take care of the small cities later and after Bibracte move to (IIRC) Vienne, we need to not let any flank uncovered. IMO this is the way to be effective and fast.
Also, don't forget that our fast moving Muskets are slowed until Tolosa, but can unleash their potential S of it.

If you have looked at the save you can see that now Brennus has a lot of workers near his borders, so probably i can be wrong on the fact we can be slowed.

 

[ZPV]

It's the uncovered flank thing I don't understand. Flanks don't cause us problems - only units do.

 

[BLubmuz]

It's the uncovered flank thing I don't understand. Flanks don't cause us problems - only units do.

Not actually flank, it's in the center of our attack. But before i proceed, i need an answer from you:
Are we agreed to start both from Rheims and from Uzbek?

If so, there's an uncoverd area in the middle, which i call flank. It's actually the center of our attack, but we don't have troops there. If we move a couple muskets SE from Rheims we avoid any problem. Those units will then join the 2 stacks in Tolosa. Then the stack becomes one.

We need to take another decision: do we upgrade to mace our 2 High XP swords?
Do we upgrade to axe the Wood2 warrior? In case, this has to be done immediately, or he will be a Mace, too expensive.

 

[ZPV]

Not actually flank, it's in the center of our attack. But before i proceed, i need an answer from you:
Are we agreed to start both from Rheims and from Uzbek?

No - well, not two full stacks. I favour just the one stack, right down the middle, moving from city to city.
Each stack needs the number of units we expect we'll need to capture the cities, plus some "insurance units" in case of bad combat luck.
With just one stack, we just need one set of insurance units.

Here is the difference in what we suggest (as far as I can tell):

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Sending a couple of the red units via the blue route makes no real difference to the march to Bibracte. It's a complication which I don't really think we need unless there are a lot of units in Tolosa, but so long as most of the units travel via Gergovia I have no real problem with it.

The Green+Black route is a different matter. That just increases the number of units we need before we declare war, for very little gain or elimination of risk. Brennus has no offensive units over there because Verlamion is such an undeveloped city.

If so, there's an uncoverd area in the middle, which i call flank. It's actually the center of our attack, but we don't have troops there. If we move a couple muskets SE from Rheims we avoid any problem. Those units will then join the 2 stacks in Tolosa. Then the stack becomes one.

We need to take another decision: do we upgrade to mace our 2 High XP swords?
Do we upgrade to axe the Wood2 warrior? In case, this has to be done immediately, or he will be a Mace, too expensive.

I wouldn't bother with the upgrades. 145 gold is too much for sword->mace.

 

[BLubmuz]

You understood correctly what i meant.

But Rheims is guarded by a warrior and there's an archer+axe in Verlamion. We can probably spare the green stack (i thought to 2 units) but we surely need a small stack for Verlamion, so Rheims can continue to be guarded by a warrior.

There's another problem, that with Camulo there is not easy to march North to Verlamion, so we need to take Camulo, then march N to Verlamion, then go back South and continue our conquest.

Highly inefficient, IMO. There's just a hill between our lands and Verlamion, that's why i roaded the gems there.
4 Muskets and a archer can do an easy job (the archer for MP in Verlamion).

I also suggest to include some chariot in the stacks, i've seen many axes and you know they have a big advantage attacking them. One of them will be attached to our first GG for the Medic 3. If it can arrive to 6 XP, we can also give it Mobility, which is great.

Usually i fight my wars very efficiently and pretty safe.

edit
the red line in your map is perfect, but we need the black too.
then, please note that Bibracte is fully covered by rivers, better cross them. I think we must arrive 2 W of it, then use our 2 moves to attack. If the AI does not see a stack in the tile close to its city, it usually does not whip defenders. The penalty for crossing a river is high and the cultural defenses too. We must avoid at least one of them.

Then, since Gergovia is lightly defended, i don't see problems in the blue stack. We can expect resistance in Bibracte, probably also Tolosa is lightly defended. We can try to use the spies to kill the governor in Bibracte, that would give us a big advantage.

 

[ZPV]

The axe and archer are frozen by the need to keep city defenders there. In the event that he somehow sends units towards Rheims we can just send a musketeer or two from Orleans to take care of them (or just whip one).

Of course I wouldn't send the stack north again. It would focus on the big, important cities - caumulodunum, vienne to the south, etc. What we do after that doesn't matter so much. Musketeers move so quickly that they can mop up the remainder very quickly.

We can get 4 spare musketeers (or 1-2 plus the swords) later in the war more easily than we can for the very start of the war (we'll keep building units of course) - the start of the war is determined by when we can get sufficient units, so there aren't 4 spare ones unless we delay it.

 

[BLubmuz]

The axe and archer are frozen by the need to keep city defenders there. In the event that he somehow sends units towards Rheims we can just send a musketeer or two from Orleans to take care of them (or just whip one).

Of course I wouldn't send the stack north again. It would focus on the big, important cities - caumulodunum, vienne to the south, etc. What we do after that doesn't matter so much. Musketeers move so quickly that they can mop up the remainder very quickly.

We can get 4 spare musketeers (or 1-2 plus the swords) later in the war more easily than we can for the very start of the war (we'll keep building units of course) - the start of the war is determined by when we can get sufficient units, so there aren't 4 spare ones unless we delay it.

I can't see why you consider "spare" the 4 units for Verlamion. If they win they will join the main stack, which does need to not be much bigger to take only Gergovia. Our problem is to keep defenders in the cities and to take quickly Tolosa and Bibracte. Splitting the stack before Tolosa changes nothing.

 

[ZPV]

It's true, not all 4 of them should be considered spare.
However, capturing the extra city puts at least 2 of them at risk of death or serious damage. That diminishes our chances to capture Bibracte on turn 5 of the war (or turn 6 if we cross the river) with the same number of units - those numbers on the map are turn numbers, with no stopping for healing (since we're on a tight schedule before Feudalism).
If there were time for the swords to get over there, then swords+2 muskets could do the job without that risk/cost.
If it costs us even one turn to Bibracte (40gpt from the shrines alone), it's not worth it.

 

[Shaandore]

Interesting war strategy discussion.

I can't really take sides now:
I like Blubmuz's idea, since clever stack splits can really make conquering easier, and I have had trouble with going for the "important" city in the middle before. Those stupid defenders will come out in no time, and those cities are tougher to get, and if they have something to attack with, they will throw all those at our healing units, who are sitting ducks in Bibracte.

On the other hand, I like ZPV's method too, since we don't have much time until lbs start showing up, and that is the fastest way of getting Bibracte for sure.

I will let you guys (and unclethrill of course) decide this. I'm very sorry, but I won't be able to open the save until Friday, despite the fact that I love war preparation. I will try to take part in the discussion though, those sreenshots really help a lot!

BTW It would be good to see both scenarios play out. Sadly we won't be able to do that for a while...

 

[unclethrill]

Give me 12 to 18 hours to look at the situation and run a few scenarios.

 

[BLubmuz]

It's true, not all 4 of them should be considered spare.
However, capturing the extra city puts at least 2 of them at risk of death or serious damage. That diminishes our chances to capture Bibracte on turn 5 of the war (or turn 6 if we cross the river) with the same number of units - those numbers on the map are turn numbers, with no stopping for healing (since we're on a tight schedule before Feudalism).
If there were time for the swords to get over there, then swords+2 muskets could do the job without that risk/cost.
If it costs us even one turn to Bibracte (40gpt from the shrines alone), it's not worth it.

Good, let's involve the 2 swords and the other few troops i prepared. The cat can be well used in Verlamion, then a musket will attack if archer defends or a chariot if axe defend. Chariots are so cheap we can afford to use them like catapults without collateral, but are very effective against axes, which are a lot.
The swords are ready for Gergovia. And i built an axe, a spear and a couple archers already. Since Gergovia is lightly defended and the blue (you call it green but i see it blue) path will guarantee safety, i don't see problems in moving the units through that path, which is also closer to our main production cities.

In other words, we need more turns to have the units start for the red path than for the blue/green. The black is longer than both. Use workers to build roads, even in Celtic territory to ensure fast move without the need to make tours around something.
- 3-4 muskets will move from Uzbek along with the Classical era units.
- 3-4 muskets + cat + archer + chariot for Verlamion
- the blue/green path will see all tha units we can and will be the preferred path to new units, being the shortest one coming from North.

Believe me, the wars are mostly a matter of logistics and usually my plans work.

The worker turns spent on roads are the best investment we can make.

 

[Shaandore]

Good, let's involve the 2 swords and the other few troops i prepared. The cat can be well used in Verlamion, then a musket will attack if archer defends or a chariot if axe defend. Chariots are so cheap we can afford to use them like catapults without collateral, but are very effective against axes, which are a lot.
The swords are ready for Gergovia. And i built an axe, a spear and a couple archers already. Since Gergovia is lightly defended and the blue (you call it green but i see it blue) path will guarantee safety, i don't see problems in moving the units through that path, which is also closer to our main production cities.

In other words, we need more turns to have the units start for the red path than for the blue/green. The black is longer than both. Use workers to build roads, even in Celtic territory to ensure fast move without the need to make tours around something.
- 3-4 muskets will move from Uzbek along with the Classical era units.
- 3-4 muskets + cat + archer + chariot for Verlamion
- the blue/green path will see all tha units we can and will be the preferred path to new units, being the shortest one coming from North.

Believe me, the wars are mostly a matter of logistics and usually my plans work.

The worker turns spent on roads are the best investment we can make.

I don't really like this: we need to make haste to get Bibracte. Starting a march with slow units, and splitting our first 6-8 muskets is a ~5 turn delay, and Brennus would also have more time from the DOW until we get to Bibracte, thus he is more likely to research/trade Feudalism until then.

We want to strike ASAP, and we also want to minimize the time interval between the DOW and arriving at Bibracte.

I propose that we start marching on the blue path as soon as we have enough units for Tolosa and Bibracte (something between 10 and 15, and only Musketeers for the speed). Our next 4-8 Musketeers could go into those small stacks that you wrote above. We would conquer Verlamion and Gergovia 1-2 turns after Bibracte. In the meantime, our main stack heals, and starts marching to Camulo.

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't really like this: we need to make haste to get Bibracte. Starting a march with slow units, and splitting our first 6-8 muskets is a ~5 turn delay, and Brennus would also have more time from the DOW until we get to Bibracte, thus he is more likely to research/trade Feudalism until then.

We want to strike ASAP, and we also want to minimize the time interval between the DOW and arriving at Bibracte.

I propose that we start marching on the blue path as soon as we have enough units for Tolosa and Bibracte (something between 10 and 15, and only Musketeers for the speed). Our next 4-8 Musketeers could go into those small stacks that you wrote above. We would conquer Verlamion and Gergovia 1-2 turns after Bibracte. In the meantime, our main stack heals, and starts marching to Camulo.

We have a bunch of ancient units for Gergovia and as i said we can use the cat for Verlamion. 2 Muskets in each stack should be enough and won't delay much our march to Bibracte.
I assume that we don't use Muskets for the first attack, but less expensive units we can suicide. I think all the muskets in the red and black stacks will survive.

The main stack of only muskets will follow the blue/green path. I think 8 are enough for start, more will follow.

 

[ZPV]

Good, let's involve the 2 swords and the other few troops i prepared. The cat can be well used in Verlamion, then a musket will attack if archer defends or a chariot if axe defend. Chariots are so cheap we can afford to use them like catapults without collateral, but are very effective against axes, which are a lot.
The swords are ready for Gergovia. And i built an axe, a spear and a couple archers already. Since Gergovia is lightly defended and the blue (you call it green but i see it blue) path will guarantee safety, i don't see problems in moving the units through that path, which is also closer to our main production cities.

In other words, we need more turns to have the units start for the red path than for the blue/green. The black is longer than both. Use workers to build roads, even in Celtic territory to ensure fast move without the need to make tours around something.
- 3-4 muskets will move from Uzbek along with the Classical era units.
- 3-4 muskets + cat + archer + chariot for Verlamion
- the blue/green path will see all tha units we can and will be the preferred path to new units, being the shortest one coming from North.

Believe me, the wars are mostly a matter of logistics and usually my plans work.

The worker turns spent on roads are the best investment we can make.

Ok, using the 1-move units at the start does make sense, so that the muskets are just there as insurance/cleanup.

Of course, the swords need to be 2NW of Gergovia before the war starts, else we lose a turn.

Either the blue or the red path will work well for our supply lines - both need just one road to connect to the north. (Incidentally, I consider the red entrance from Orleans as closer to our production cities than the blue one from Rheims.)

My apologies about the green path confusion - the black path was originally green (see the colours of the numbers) but that didn't give enough contrast to the terrain.

I don't really like this: we need to make haste to get Bibracte. Starting a march with slow units, and splitting our first 6-8 muskets is a ~5 turn delay, and Brennus would also have more time from the DOW until we get to Bibracte, thus he is more likely to research/trade Feudalism until then.

We want to strike ASAP, and we also want to minimize the time interval between the DOW and arriving at Bibracte.

I propose that we start marching on the blue path as soon as we have enough units for Tolosa and Bibracte (something between 10 and 15, and only Musketeers for the speed). Our next 4-8 Musketeers could go into those small stacks that you wrote above. We would conquer Verlamion and Gergovia 1-2 turns after Bibracte. In the meantime, our main stack heals, and starts marching to Camulo.

I agree with the number needed, but if other units start to take the brunt of the inital cities then I have less of a problem going through more.

btw, the red path is just as fast as the blue one.

 

[BLubmuz]

btw, the red path is just as fast as the blue one.

Yes, we need only 1 or 2 roads, which we can build now.
We do not have problems in amassing a stack on the hill 2NW.

 

[Folket]

I prefer ZPVs plan of 10-15 muskets beelining to Bibrace.

 

[ZPV]

edit
the red line in your map is perfect, but we need the black too.
then, please note that Bibracte is fully covered by rivers, better cross them. I think we must arrive 2 W of it, then use our 2 moves to attack. If the AI does not see a stack in the tile close to its city, it usually does not whip defenders. The penalty for crossing a river is high and the cultural defenses too. We must avoid at least one of them.

Just a couple of issues with this:

1) If there are relatively few units in Bibracte we should attack across the river anyway. The extra turn is valuable to us and in preventing Brennus getting to Feudalism
2) 2 tiles away are close enough for a city to whip defenders anyway.
3) The forest and oasis (both cost 2 movement points to cross) prevent us from attacking from 2W, except across the river anyway.

 

[Folket]

The forest could be cut down. If we move to 1W of 4 we can decide from there on the next step. If Brennus does not have LBs I think we will be fine attacking over the river.