SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Folket]

I just posted the last post as I wanted people to see what I was thinking.

I guess we should ask two questions.

How many sid sushi resources do we have? Which turn is our goal?

From there we can see how much culture we will be able to produce in a four cathedral city without further help.

 

[Folket]

btw,
I want us to get corporations after steal.

 

[BLubmuz]

Yes, well played. 2 muskets per city was the price? good.
Unfortunately, both cities lost almost all their buildings. I think that a LH has to be the first build in both. Then a granary in Ele and after those CHs.

The ideal peace deal would be obtain Pi-Ramesses and Giza. Otherwise the war risks to go too long. We can have his techs at any time trading now obsolete techs to the other continent.
Cannon wars are long. Unfortunately we can't test the peace deals. You have to try, then if he accepts it's done.

We can probably trade for Astro once it will be researched by another AI, but the price is high. Much depends by when it will be avaiable.

GAge with the Econ Merchant. Yes or no? in case, when? Then we need Caste to pop another GM for Sushi. Thebes has 25 GPPoints from wonders and 9 more from free specs from Wonders. it's 34 GPP doing nothing. Next GP requires 500 GPP, roughly 15 turns. I don't think we want wait 15 turns before to change civics using a random GP from Thebes. So, if we use the GM for the GAge to start immediately, we need another one for Sushi. We can use Gergovia which is not polluted, but we need Caste+Pacifism in the first turn of the GAge. Gergovia can run 5 specs+1 if we revolt to Merc (which makes Astro less important) so 6*3=18*3(GAGe+Pacif)=54. But Thebes will go out of revolt in 4 turns and its 34+3 GPP will get 37*3=111. We can do something with the NE, but it pollutes the GM pool. We can also do something starving it, but i think Thebes will still win the first GP.

 

[Folket]

I would say yes to the golden age.

It will take us some time before we get medecin. We need steel now, then corporations and we will probably get railroad to get mining inc first. After that we need sci meth and biology as well.

So we start a GM in Gergovia and let thebes generate one great person. Gergovia can get a GM as next great person at 600 GPP. It will not be many turns delayed. (3?) If we get all those techs very fast we can also get physics and/or communism for extra great people.

 

[ZPV]

Yes to the golden age, and immediately.

Yes we'll need caste to pop another GM. We can do that during our second golden age. Gergovia is currently unpolluted and should stay that way so it can do so.

@Shaandore: we will probably run 4 golden ages. That still leaves quite a lot of room for great artists to pop. Hermitage definitely should go to the city where it actually has an effect (i.e. the one with the high culture rate)

 

[BLubmuz]

btw,
I want us to get corporations after steal.

First we need Constitution, to open it. But i think that Democracy for the SoL is stronger. We can build it in no time, being industrious and with copper. Orleans, Thebes or Bibracte can be the choices.

It will greatly help in researching the techs needed for the Corps. BTW, i think that i prefer the Railroad path first, so we can benefit more from our Wonders.

I started this post over an hour ago.

 

[BLubmuz]

Yes to the golden age, and immediately.

Yes we'll need caste to pop another GM. We can do that during our second golden age. Gergovia is currently unpolluted and should stay that way so it can do so.

@Shaandore: we will probably run 4 golden ages. That still leaves quite a lot of room for great artists to pop. Hermitage definitely should go to the city where it actually has an effect (i.e. the one with the high culture rate)

Another GAge using 2 GPs will move the target to 700 and Thebes will still have its free GPPs. We need to start soon with merchants in Gergovia. But we can run 4 if we got market+grocer there, caste or not.

 

[ZPV]

Another GAge using 2 GPs will move the target to 700 and Thebes will still have its free GPPs. We need to start soon with merchants in Gergovia. But we can run 4 if we got market+grocer there, caste or not.

Honestly, growing+starving is better. The market is a good foil for our free specialist(s) but the grocer is not needed.
We'll use Pacifism as well.
16+15+14+13+12 merchants will give us 630GPP.

If we need to grow a couple of sizes larger and push to 900GPP, we could even do that.

 

[ZPV]

First we need Constitution, to open it. But i think that Democracy for the SoL is stronger. We can build it in no time, being industrious and with copper. Orleans, Thebes or Bibracte can be the choices.

It will greatly help in researching the techs needed for the Corps. BTW, i think that i prefer the Railroad path first, so we can benefit more from our Wonders.

I started this post over an hour ago.

First, of course we need steel so we can finish of Ramesses.

I presume you mean Railroad before Medicine, rather than Railroad before Corporation.
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Corporation should come before democracy - it is cheap (2400 beakers, compared with 4300), and its effect is immediate - no need to wait for us to accumulate 500 base hammers.

 

[BLubmuz]

Honestly, growing+starving is better. The market is a good foil for our free specialist(s) but the grocer is not needed.
We'll use Pacifism as well.
16+15+14+13+12 merchants will give us 630GPP.

If we need to grow a couple of sizes larger and push to 900GPP, we could even do that.

Gergovia is one of our biggest cities and it's size 10. So, brutally starving it can use 9-10 specs. From where you take 16?

First, of course we need steel so we can finish of Ramesses.
ça va sans dire
I presume you mean Railroad before Medicine, rather than Railroad before Corporation.

Sure
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Corporation should come before democracy - it is cheap (2400 beakers, compared with 4300), and its effect is immediate - no need to wait for us to accumulate 500 base hammers.

But it's a poor effect running Merc and without Astro. 2 cpt in any city, compared to 6 base beakers in any city, assuming to run sci in any. Beakers which will run even @0 science.

 

[ZPV]

Gergovia is one of our biggest cities and it's size 10. So, brutally starving it can use 9-10 specs. From where you take 16?

But it's a poor effect running Merc and without Astro. 2 cpt in any city, compared to 6 base beakers in any city, assuming to run sci in any. Beakers which will run even @0 science.

Well, Gergovia will grow between now and then. We will make sure it does. That's what planning is for. (Really, we should make coherent plans for each city, and build some more workers very soon.)

Yeah, it's not as large an effect, but it will take 20 turns to build SoL. 1500 hammers take time to accumulate, copper+industrious or not. We don't have 20 turns to sit around and wait for a tech to have an effect.

 

[ZPV]

Comments on the save:

Good job capturing Memphis and Elephantine. We'll need to move most of the units back into Thebes so it doesn't revolt.
Ramesses has an island city, Heiraconopolis. We should take it in a peace deal, if possible. That will save time when we need to attack again.

Nitpicks:
Some of those banks have no business being built. They should be whipped at the last minute, and the hammers in the meantime spent on wealth or better.
Isca needs to chop the third forest into Moai immediately. Like, move two workers onto the forest next turn, cancelling their other tasks.
Paris needs to work the grassland town 1E of the city centre.
Some cities are leaving improved tiles unworked. Durocortorum and Vienne are two examples which come to mind. The city governor is very good at picking up that sort of thing, but you do then have to check it's doing what you want.

 

[BLubmuz]

Ramesses has an island city, Heiraconopolis. We should take it in a peace deal, if possible. That will save time when we need to attack again.

Now i see what those yellow borders on the island are. Sure.

Our first peace proposal can be:
Hieran
Pi-Ramesses
Byblos
Music
Theo
WM
all his gold
in this order. Then if he doesn't accept we remove one item from the bottom (but the gold last). He's even willing to capitulate, so we can squeeze a lot from him. His techs are not monopoly, so he does not value them much.

Once we start the war again, i think we must raze both Harappan and Akhe and build a city 1SW of the iron hill.

Moai can be better in Calleva since we can't raze it?

Yeah, it's not as large an effect, but it will take 20 turns to build SoL. 1500 hammers take time to accumulate, copper+industrious or not. We don't have 20 turns to sit around and wait for a tech to have an effect.

Unless Thebes pops a GE

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I'm home today, so I can look at the save and adjust things, and play anytime. (I do have a headache, tho.)

On the golden age, is there some way to decide which great people to use? And if so, which ones?

Now, I got a clear message we needed the banks for Wall Street, and what cities to build them in. It seemed imperative at the time.

I haven't done all the city management yet, it was late and I was tired, but keep the comments coming. (Sometimes an explanation why I'm doing it is cool, too.)

"ça va sans dire" Heh. I'm one of the few Americans who speaks (poorly) another language!

I'll post more later, but I'm going to get some food and rest a bit.

 

[Folket]

We only need one GP for this golden age. That should be the merchant.

 

[BLubmuz]

We only need one GP for this golden age. That should be the merchant.

Sure we don't wanna waste our GE carefully grown for the MI. So, we haven't many other choices. Merchants are far easier to "cultivate". And this is why we're discussing how we can have a sure one. BTW, is the Parthenon too in Thebes?
There're so many WW there that i just counted them. Crazy.

But i remember a good SG (for FE at least) where we lacked one, so we built the IW and put all the possible eng spec at work. Of course we manage it.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Okay, I'm kind of stuck here with so many ideas tossed back and forth.

- Start GAge now. (great merchant) Like before pushing the red button, right? And what's the best thing to do, run science at 100%? Chem is 2 turns, Steel is 7. Not sure we have enough gold unless I go back to running wealth in more cities.

- Do we want to stop the banks? If so, which ones... and what do we want to do, wealth during the GAge?

- I still like Moai in Isca, but Calleva does have more tiles. Do we get failgold if we stop it in Isca? What does the team think? If we are going to switch it, now is the time (GAge). I can chop 60 of the 200 and build a workshop, I suppose.

- Sue for peace. I'll use Blubmuz's plan if everyone agrees.

- Are we changing civics during the GAge? If so, let's decide exactly what we want. It's a big deal and I want to be very clear...

 

[ZPV]

Sure we don't wanna waste our GE carefully grown for the MI. So, we haven't many other choices. Merchants are far easier to "cultivate". And this is why we're discussing how we can have a sure one. BTW, is the Parthenon too in Thebes?
There're so many WW there that i just counted them. Crazy.

But i remember a good SG (for FE at least) where we lacked one, so we built the IW and put all the possible eng spec at work. Of course we manage it.

Yes, the Parthenon is in Thebes. The wonders and free specialists alone give us 51 GPP/turn.

Yeah, Ironworks+Forge+Factory for 6 engineers, or something. That's what we'd have had to do if we didn't get the GE early (in which case we'd have gone for communism first and then switched to corporations later). It's a pain if you have to do that though - running a bunch of engineers is a sucky use for your best production city.

@Mastiff: just select the great merchant and press the golden coin thingy.
It can get complicated for later ones, making sure we use the right great people. I'll look up the code and mock up a test closer to the time of our second golden age, so we don't accidentally destroy our GE.

 

[Shaandore]

Okay, I'm kind of stuck here with so many ideas tossed back and forth.

- Start GAge now. (great merchant) Like before pushing the red button, right? And what's the best thing to do, run science at 100%? Chem is 2 turns, Steel is 7. Not sure we have enough gold unless I go back to running wealth in more cities.

- Do we want to stop the banks? If so, which ones... and what do we want to do, wealth during the GAge?

We will see how much money we have when you start the golden age. You can pospone some banks. I'm sorry, contrary to my earier post I can't open the save now, but I will try to do so in 9 hours from now if that is not too late.

- I still like Moai in Isca, but Calleva does have more tiles. Do we get failgold if we stop it in Isca? What does the team think? If we are going to switch it, now is the time (GAge). I can chop 60 of the 200 and build a workshop, I suppose.

I didn't see anyone saying to build it in Calleva (maybe I missed something) Chopping into it is important though. We would get failgold BTW, but it is irrelevant.

- Sue for peace. I'll use Blubmuz's plan if everyone agrees.

Fine by me.

- Are we changing civics during the GAge? If so, let's decide exactly what we want. It's a big deal and I want to be very clear...

We change to Representation+Mercantilism for sure. We will want to change to caste and pacifism some time for GP generation, but I'm not sure that it should be done now, maybe only 5 (?) turns later if we need some urgent whips now.

answers in red

 

[ZPV]

Isca is definitely a better place to build Moai than Calleva.
Calleva doesn't have a third forest to finish it, and by the time it would be able to work more than 10 water tiles it'll be too late to matter.

edit:
The banks in Caumulo and Rheims are the obvious candidates to cancel.
You'll probably want to whip the one in Tours too, but that one can be as soon as we switch to a 0% phase of binary research.