SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I didn't see anyone saying to build it in Calleva (maybe I missed something) Chopping into it is important though. We would get failgold BTW, but it is irrelevant.

This is the attention my suggestions deserve.

We change to Representation+Mercantilism for sure. We will want to change to caste and pacifism some time for GP generation, but I'm not sure that it should be done now, maybe only 5 (?) turns later if we need some urgent whips now.

I think that we need the whip for the Egyprian cities coming out of revolt to avoid starvation. So we don't actually lose pop. Now i can't open the save, but i remember that Thebes should have 4 more turns of revolt, deep dark for Memphis and Ele.
If we wait 1 turn to launch, we can have those cities closer to finish the revolt, so we can use the whip. Then we can revolt to Pacif+Caste until 1 turn to finish the GAge, when we'll take our civics of choice. Next GAge we move to Caste, trying to finish the game with it. Unless we think that we can better use slavery now and move to Caste in final turns of the GAge. Remember that after few cities have Corps, we surely need FM or the maintenance will kill us. And this is a good reason to build the SoL.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Ram says no to:

Heircon
Theology
Music
100g

Remove a tech or the last city? I'll try a different city, anything but Venta...

EDIT: Nope, he won't give a city with the techs.

 

[ZPV]

Ram says no to:

Heircon
Theology
Music
100g

Remove a tech or the last city? I'll try a different city, anything but Venta...

EDIT: Nope, he won't give a city with the techs.

The city is worth more than the techs, but that city is the most useful of any of them. We can always trade liberalism to hammy for music.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

He won't give up the city, or any of the others mentioned. I can't see any reason to take Venta... go for the techs & gold?

 

[ZPV]

On civics:
Merc+Rep are no brainers.
We'll want to keep Buro+OrgRel

I think we can afford a 5-turn burst of Caste-System productionwise - just make sure to do any whipping you want to this turn, before the revolt - and benefit from having our undeveloped cities being able to run better specialists for a few turns.

We can let Thebes starve for one turn before whipping - we'll make that cost up because we won't have to whip something from scratch.

i.e. Rep+Merc+Caste

 

[ZPV]

He won't give up the city, or any of the others mentioned. I can't see any reason to take Venta... go for the techs & gold?

Yeah. Venta won't pay for itself.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

On civics:
Merc+Rep are no brainers.
We'll want to keep Buro+OrgRel

I think we can afford a 5-turn burst of Caste-System productionwise - just make sure to do any whipping you want to this turn, before the revolt - and benefit from having our undeveloped cities being able to run better specialists for a few turns.

We can let Thebes starve for one turn before whipping - we'll make that cost up because we won't have to whip something from scratch.

i.e. Rep+Merc+Caste

Well, we have 2 in Rheims, but that's 5 pop whip for the bank.

And don't you have to wait 10 turns to swap civics again?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Wow. He won't give Theo OR music + 100g for peace!

EDIT: Ended up with only 100g and 4gpt.

 

[ZPV]

Well, we have 2 in Rheims, but that's 5 pop whip for the bank.

And don't you have to wait 10 turns to swap civics again?

Only 5 turns.
The will disappear with the representation happiness (and the silver).

Wow. He won't give Theo OR music + 100g for peace!

It's not that surprising. We haven't exactly beaten him to a pulp.
Just take what you can get - WM + 100 gold or similar.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Okay, so start the GAge right now, swap to Rep+Merc+Caste.

Really don't see anything to whip. I'll probably take wealth over the banks to tech to steel.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Oh, Hammu wants Lib and 320g for Music, so no way.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Okay, did my usual 3 turns before I have a team question... but first the turns:

188
Started GAge w/ GM
Civics to Rep/Caste/Merc

189
Hammu offers Theo for Lib+140g which I decline
Forge done in Duro go back to wealth
Hindu Missionary done, back to wealth
Moved all muskets (except one per other cities) to Thebes
Finished a Lib in Georgovia and started the NE (If the team wants it elsewhere we can use the failgold)

190
Get Chem and start Steel
Finish Forb Palace and start granary
AP vote... I vote for us of course, we win it on 191
Rouen gets Hinduism
Ram moves 2 knights to Venta
Traded paper to Qin and SB for 130g and WM+60g respectively
Moai is done, started CH

191
Ram asks us to stop trading w/ Salad. I decline and he goes to cautious.
Hammu has rice to trade... hmmmm. I make a deal for clams.

But, that's the item. Both Salad and Hammu are willing to trade Astro. I think Salad is the best deal, he'll give us Astro and Theo for Nat and Edu. (Can't get it for just one of them without lots of gold) It'd take Gunpowder to get it from Hammu. Plus, we can turn around and trade Edu to Ram for Music+30g. He's working on Con, but it's 18 turns away.

One other interesting item. The big barb city is surrounded by ice, except for one little landing square, which is being guarded by a barb galley. I'm healing the caravel (2 turns) with the explorer, and the other will arrive at the same time to take out the galley. (screenshot)

Also, I'm working some cities for wealth, and building some important infra. The bank in Paris (4 turns) will give 57.5g when we run at 0%... we have plenty of gold to get through the GAge, and then some.

 

[BLubmuz]

Can we build some LB for defense? i'm start getting nervous. 2 AIs with Astro and coastal cities defended by warriors. Unacceptable.
Not to mention 2 empty cities.
LBs are needed also to protect the soon new Egyptian cities. They have to march with the stacks.

Then, an Engineer at work in Gergovia... to pollute the pool?

What happened in Lyons? it shows 6 unhappy for whips.

Probably Hammu was or is researching Lib, because he offers only his WM for it, but Theo+Music for Econ.

Astro+Theo for Edu+Nationalism is surely an half gift, but i think we must take it.
We can give then Edu to Ram for Music.

I prefer to keep the monopoly on GP.

Hammu has rice to trade... hmmmm. I make a deal for clams.

No, for sheep.

 

[Folket]

Why did we never go to the one square that would let us see the barbarian city? We could have seen it 30 turns ago. It is good that we will get to see it soon. Still, I think the caravel should go the the square that looks at the city after dropping the explorer.

We should not pollute the GP pool in Gergovia. Change that engineer to a merchant.

To bad Saladin does not have gold. Since Theocracy is a dead end. Since we have mercantilism the trade is not that urgent. I guess astronomy will speed up sci meth, but I prefer waiting a few turns and then get some gold as well.

I think things look good, well played.

Next tech corp and then railroad.

 

[unclethrill]

Why did we never go to the one square that would let us see the barbarian city? We could have seen it 30 turns ago. It is good that we will get to see it soon. Still, I think the caravel should go the the square that looks at the city after dropping the explorer.

I agree we should have focused more on that area but my guess is that we will need to do more than sail over there to see it

 

[Shaandore]

We need some more workers. Despite the Hagia sophia, our land is still a bit underdeveloped. Check out those newly conquered Ram lands! Full of juicy forests that need to be chopped and improved.

We also need to prepare for the war, we get steel in 2 turns. We need something to go with the cannons that doesn't get eaten by knights. I think a couple pikes + muskets will do the job just fine. We could start making pikes in our HE city now in that case.



Some city micro:

Paris: Next turn switch the Engineer for a scientists. (I believe it won't postpone the bank.) The new citizen should go on the town stolen back from Tours. (110+24+3*22=200 )

Orleans: Pike next for the war? Or theater for culture.

Lyons: it is sad to see this city struggling with unhappiness. Maybe build a temple or two? Or can we trade for some happy resource (maybe after astro trade)? (Rep won't help us here.)

Tours: working 4 unimproved tiles. Whip the bank now IMO. Or whip a worker.

Apache needs more farms, eg. the plains tile on the S of the city, and the neighbouring cottage will give some food. (the 2 riverside plains that have a river edge should be saved for watermills.) There is one more riverside plain to farm later, but that can wait.

Uzbek needs a bit more worker force. (One from gergo would be nice)

Avignon has a spy hired and needs a riverside mine to be built for that citizen.

Rouen needs courthouse immediately.

Verlamion is low on food. We either irrigate it from the northwest (E of pigs, S of pigs, 2N1W of Verlamion could be the chain). It would irrigate that corn shared with Tolosa, but int that case we must stop that workshop building worker. Other option is waiting for Sushi, but it is a long wait...

Bibracte should get a courthouse after the grocer is ready.

Isca needs more food. That grass tile 2N should be farmed instead of workshopped. This way we can grow onto the plains workshop tiles faster.

Camulo needs to grow, put somebody on the spice tile. (Maybe steal the other one from Bibracte)

Bagacum is still not working the oasis. I would switch the non-riverside silk tile for that. (1F > 2C especially in a low food city like this)

Vienne: put the ocean citizen onto the grass mine. And finish the courthouse (in 1 turn). Then build granary and forge (maybe in reverse order).

Nemetocenna & nearby area: it seems you forgot that we need farms here, that worker S of Duro will prevent us from irrigating the corn until we conquer Pi-Ramesses.

 

[unclethrill]

Can we build some LB for defense? i'm start getting nervous. 2 AIs with Astro and coastal cities defended by warriors. Unacceptable.

Not a huge problem but better safe than sorry


What happened in Lyons? it shows 6 unhappy for whips.



Blame me. I whipped the heck out of several cities. Bottom line we went from no military to dominating the continent in 10 turn.






Astro+Theo for Edu+Nationalism is surely an half gift, but i think we must take it.

Agreed


We can give then Edu to Ram for Music.

Again agreed

I prefer to keep the monopoly on GP.

No doubt. Hold it as long as possible.




Notice: on my tablet so options for differentiating my comments were limited

 

[BLubmuz]

Why did we never go to the one square that would let us see the barbarian city? We could have seen it 30 turns ago. It is good that we will get to see it soon. Still, I think the caravel should go the the square that looks at the city after dropping the explorer.
I agree with UT, we probably need to unload the explorer in the island to see the city, otherwise i should be visible. Need to kill the galley first.
We should not pollute the GP pool in Gergovia. Change that engineer to a merchant.
Sure, the GM from Gergovia is the reason why we switched to Caste. We also need a market there. My previous comment about the engineer was sarcastic.
To bad Saladin does not have gold. Since Theocracy is a dead end. Since we have mercantilism the trade is not that urgent. I guess astronomy will speed up sci meth, but I prefer waiting a few turns and then get some gold as well.
this is a good way to lost the trade. we can wait one turn, no more.
I think things look good, well played.

Next tech corp and then railroad.

One at a time, constitution is needed anyway. then we can decide if go for Corp or Demo. SoL needs many turns to be built and i wanna it.

We also need to prepare for the war, we get steel in 2 turns. We need something to go with the cannons that doesn't get eaten by knights. I think a couple pikes + muskets will do the job just fine. We could start making pikes in our HE city now in that case

Some city micro:

The usual good analisys.

I said we need LBs, but pikes too. Muskets are inferior to knights unless on a forest or hill and we don't want to see cannons defend. We need to start build troops now, starting with LBs and pikes. Then some muskets and cannons. Some mace can be of use too CR is always a great promo. And some knight. they are damn powerful if there are no pikes.

 

[ZPV]

Thoughts:
1) The point of revolting to Caste was so we wouldn't have to run engineers everywhere. D'oh! I'm afraid you'll just have to select scientists or merchants manually.
2) I disagree with Blubmuz about the need for a coastal defence. We will see any attack coming from a million miles away because AIs have to go into WHEOOHRN mode. Currently Sitting Bull is the only one planning an attack, and he doesn't have Astronomy. He doesn't even have Optics.
3) I don't see why we're building more banks. The point of cancelling a couple wasn't to slow-build them elsewhere.
4) Apache should start a Trebuchet now, to finish in 2 turns. It will autoupgrade to a Cannon.
5) We'll also need to start building a few other units - a couple of pikes and maybe a musket/mace or two - but we have most of the backup to cannons we need. Orleans and Uzbek are both good military production cities. Settle the GG in whichever one of those will have the most production, so it can build cannons too.
6) Yes, we need a ton of workers. I'd suggest building them immediately in Lyons, Rheims, Tolosa, Vienne.
7) Isca's next build should be a granary, not a courthouse.
8) Trade Economics to Hammy for Music+Theo. Then we can trade for Astro with Saladin next turn.

 

[Shaandore]

Thoughts:
1) The point of revolting to Caste was so we wouldn't have to run engineers everywhere. D'oh! I'm afraid you'll just have to select scientists or merchants manually.
2) I disagree with Blubmuz about the need for a coastal defence. We will see any attack coming from a million miles away because AIs have to go into WHEOOHRN mode. Currently Sitting Bull is the only one planning an attack, and he doesn't have Astronomy. He doesn't even have Optics.
3) I don't see why we're building more banks. The point of cancelling a couple wasn't to slow-build them elsewhere.
4) Apache should start a Trebuchet now, to finish in 2 turns. It will autoupgrade to a Cannon.
5) We'll also need to start building a few other units - a couple of pikes and maybe a musket/mace or two - but we have most of the backup to cannons we need. Orleans and Uzbek are both good military production cities. Settle the GG in whichever one of those will have the most production, so it can build cannons too.
6) Yes, we need a ton of workers. I'd suggest building them immediately in Lyons, Rheims, Tolosa, Vienne.
7) Isca's next build should be a granary, not a courthouse.
8) Trade Economics to Hammy for Music+Theo. Then we can trade for Astro with Saladin next turn.

Good points, I agree with all of them except maces. We don't need those, since muskets are good against anything except knights (yes, they are better than LBs too in open ground, and we don't need city defenders.) We need 2, maybe 3 pikes per stack, and maybe a couple more msukets to go with our cannons.