SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

Looking at the barb city it seems that it is a 1-tile island.

If it is, then we should just nuke Humbaba, it's by far the easiest way. Or we build a fort/city on that forest plains tile and bring some transports loaded with gunships.
 
Looking at the barb city it seems that it is a 1-tile island.

If it is, then we should just nuke Humbaba, it's by far the easiest way. Or we build a fort/city on that forest plains tile and bring some transports loaded with gunships.

Guided missiles are much cheaper.
 
I thought about that, I just wasn't sure that they work like siege (so can not kill any unit just weaken it) or they are actually able to kill things. They are much cheaper indeed, so we should use them instead.

I never really used them in my games. (Or it was a long time ago)
 
I thought about that, I just wasn't sure that they work like siege (so can not kill any unit just weaken it) or they are actually able to kill things. They are much cheaper indeed, so we should use them instead.

I never really used them in my games. (Or it was a long time ago)

Yes, they can kill, and cost 60 hammers each.
 
4 plot range, if I recall... can you base them in fort?
 
Makes sense. I'll cancel and trade sheep as soon as I can.
good
I'm in Oregon, not Washington or Colorado! :smoke:
The target is in this side of the Ocean. Not your Ocean.

Got it! I didn't know it would be on us that fast. And, are we going for any other corps? Mining Inc.?

dammit we did anything to have a sure GE for it in the bronze age.
And, I think a GP is going to pop before we get anything. :thumbsdown:
GP. but it can be of any kind. that city is just crazy.
 
Looking at the barb city it seems that it is a 1-tile island.

If it is, then we should just nuke Humbaba, it's by far the easiest way. Or we build a fort/city on that forest plains tile and bring some transports loaded with gunships.
Forts work only inside cultural borders. Not even if you got OB you can use a fort. We need a city there, i think. Well, with sushi and MI any crappy city is good, provided it have a CH.

And with a nuke you aren't 100% sure you kill him. Not mentioning the cost of build the MP and of the nukes. 2 subs fully loaded with missiles and a transport loaded of marines. Or 2 if that's the case. Also some bomber.
 
A fort 3N of Rouen is sufficient. That will be in our cultural borders.
 
We don't need direct combat with transports, a couple stelath bombers and guided missiles can take care of everything. I don't think that there will be anything stronger than 4 modern armors in there.

What do you guys think about my SoL post?
 
@Shan - I think it's well said. It's a big detour...
 
SoL is an interesting question.

Democracy costs us 4368 beakers. Gives us 1 specialist in every city. There are 32 cities on our continent, but let's say we settle two more, that makes 34. So 34 specialists, they generate 6*34=204 raw beakers while we run Rep. We may assume that we have a science multiplier of 50% on these beakers, so roughly 250 bpt comes from this.

So getting back the beakers spent on Deomcracy takes 18 turns.

We didn't calculate the hammer cost (which is quite high even with this many modifiers: >500 raw hammers I'm not mistaken, which is produced in 17 turns in our best production city ATM).

And don't forget that it takes us 5 turns (in golden age) to research it, which postpones the economic powerhouse that are called corporations.

I think that we shouldn't do a detour.
The problem with this sort of analysis is that long-term benefits are usually overvalued, and the short-term cost is underestimated.
i.e.
In 40 turns, when it's paid for the cost of the tech, 300bpt should be a couple of cities' worth.
Also, 4368 beakers doesn't really tell us how much the delay to other stuff (corporations, biology, etc) costs.
 
ZPV, I think we all know that.

If you read more closly you will see that Shaandore present this as an argument against getting democracy.
 
GP. but it can be of any kind. that city is just crazy.

There is a GP (Great Prophet) coming out in 14 turns or something. I don't have the save, Paris maybe? Guess we can save him for a GAge... You think Thebes will put out a GP in less that that?! :eek:

And... "dammit we did anything to have a sure GE for it in the bronze age." I know we have one, but really, I was trying to pay attention in the bronze age, but it was a rough time.
 
There is a GP (Great Prophet) coming out in 14 turns or something. I don't have the save, Paris maybe? Guess we can save him for a GAge... You think Thebes will put out a GP in less that that?! :eek:

Certainly. 7 turns, maximum. Sooner if it runs specialists.
 
The problem with this sort of analysis is that long-term benefits are usually overvalued, and the short-term cost is underestimated.
i.e.
In 40 turns, when it's paid for the cost of the tech, 300bpt should be a couple of cities' worth.
Also, 4368 beakers doesn't really tell us how much the delay to other stuff (corporations, biology, etc) costs.
Let's keep 32 cities, but only the ones in the mainland, beacause SoL has effect only on the continent where it's built. Assuming to use only sci specialist, it's 6*32=192*1.5 on average, it's 288. But i.e. for Paris it's 6*3.25=19.5 and the average will easily be 1.75 soon, since i think we want those salons in every city. Let alone the laboratories, which come very late. So the detour pays for itself in (4368/300) in 15 turns, assuming we don't build more research buildings.

But we can also run more free artists in our GA farm.
Last but not least we deny it to our opponents and maybe we delay their research of the tech, wich is dangerous if they adopt Emancipation too soon.
 
Certainly. 7 turns, maximum. Sooner if it runs specialists.

Sooooo... do we want to run some merchant specialist to try and weight it?
 
Let's keep 32 cities, but only the ones in the mainland, beacause SoL has effect only on the continent where it's built. Assuming to use only sci specialist, it's 6*32=192*1.5 on average, it's 288. But i.e. for Paris it's 6*3.25=19.5 and the average will easily be 1.75 soon, since i think we want those salons in every city. Let alone the laboratories, which come very late. So the detour pays for itself in (4368/300) in 15 turns, assuming we don't build more research buildings.

But we can also run more free artists in our GA farm.
Last but not least we deny it to our opponents and maybe we delay their research of the tech, wich is dangerous if they adopt Emancipation too soon.
Will we build it if we can trade for Democracy? Certainly.

Even supposing 15 turns instead of 18 to accrue 4368 beakers from the free specialists, if we pretend we have Constitution and start researching Democracy right now, we would complete SoL in 22 turns or so.
You can't remove those 22 turns from your estimate of "how soon does Demo-SoL make a profit?". 37 turns are too long when you delay other economic techs (which we would).

edit: even so, for it to be worth it after X turns, we need to make up 5 turns of research at turn X rates, not at our current rates which would give 4368.
Sooooo... do we want to run some merchant specialist to try and weight it?

That's an interesting idea. It would pretty much just be the first turn running more than one or two merchants, since after that borders will have popped and we don't want to starve the city for what's essentially a long shot.

The plan for generating an almost-sure GM is to grow a city (intended Gergovia) large - size 15 would be enough, but the larger the better, and then in the next golden age run all merchants, in Caste+Pacifism.

If we give ourselves a (slightly larger) chance of getting one from Thebes, then we might not have to do that.
 
Let's keep 32 cities, but only the ones in the mainland, beacause SoL has effect only on the continent where it's built. Assuming to use only sci specialist, it's 6*32=192*1.5 on average, it's 288. But i.e. for Paris it's 6*3.25=19.5 and the average will easily be 1.75 soon, since i think we want those salons in every city. Let alone the laboratories, which come very late. So the detour pays for itself in (4368/300) in 15 turns, assuming we don't build more research buildings.

But we can also run more free artists in our GA farm.
Last but not least we deny it to our opponents and maybe we delay their research of the tech, wich is dangerous if they adopt Emancipation too soon.

I don't think we have that good multipliers on average. We have 12 libraries, 7 unis, 1 oxford, 6 monasteries and 1 academy. Half of our cities doesn't even have a library built. Note that building a library and building a salon gives the same amount of bonus beakers from the SoL specialist. Assuming we have our current buildings, all cities on the continent that are currently built (32) and library built in every city. (Or 20 more library or salon built anywhere)

We get 6*32= 192 raw beakers.

32 library/salon, each gives 1.5 beakers -> 48 beakers

1 oxford, gives 6 beaker from this specialst

1 academy, gives 3 beakers

7 unis, each gives 1.5 beaker: 10.5 beakers

6 monasteries, each gives 0.6 beaker -> 3.6 beakers

sum= 192+48+6+3+10.5+3.6= 263.1 beakers

Note that I assumed 12 unbuilt buildings. It takes 19 turns to get back the beakers invested in Democracy.

We all agree that we need corps ASAP. Why would we postpone it 5 turns? I believe that getting mining inc 5 turns earlier easily cuts 3-4 turns on our finish date.

EDIT: it turns out that my estimation in the previous post was quite accurate :D
 
Two Items the team hasn't decided on, so while people are still here:

IRONWORKS - Where do we want it to go? Someone mentioned we need to start it now.

LEGENDARY CITIES - We should pick them and put a theater and Hindu temple in each, no?

I'll put together my mini-set list.
 
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