SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

I don't think we have a chance of getting physics first. I'll try to look into the save tomorrow. (actually todday, but now I'm going to for at least 7 hours)

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

So, do a couple more turns?

EDIT: Did we all agree on Corp next? (I caught that myself on that one.)

EDIT #2: Since we're at a lull. Do we want 150g for Theo from Qin? Normally, I'd do it. He's way behind in techs and 150g is a full turn of science and then some.

 

[Folket]

I agree to a trade to Qin. Money for nothing.

Corp next.

 

[Folket]

Grocer is better then market in Gergovia since we plan to have a globe theatre there. I think we do?

Well played so far. To bad Saladin will get physics and communism.

 

[ZPV]

Corporation should be next - we need to make a start on Wall St.
However, the availability of Scientific Method in trade (Saladin will go to Cautious in a couple of turns when +1 Open Borders kicks in) does open up an interesting possibility:
We could go for Sushi before Mining Inc.

The Kremlin is what makes that a viable strategy - 45 base hammers per citizen allow us to produce without having to whip all our citizens away.

----------------
Regardless, as soon as we have enough units to deal with Ramesses, we need to start spreading like the plague.
Representation + 3 offshore trade routes + the city tile and one more are enough to pay for any new city's maintenance, and we need to start getting all the available seafood.

 

[BLubmuz]

Grocer is better then market in Gergovia since we plan to have a globe theatre there. I think we do?

I think it needs both until we run Caste again. Or Sushi will be a dream.

Well played so far. To bad Saladin will get physics and communism.

To get communism he needs Lib, which is a monopoly ATM.

 

[BLubmuz]

Corporation should be next - we need to make a start on Wall St.
However, the availability of Scientific Method in trade (Saladin will go to Cautious in a couple of turns when +1 Open Borders kicks in) does open up an interesting possibility:
We could go for Sushi before Mining Inc.

The Kremlin is what makes that a viable strategy - 45 base hammers per citizen allow us to produce without having to whip all our citizens away.

Do you mean that we have to research it? What use can we have of the Kremlin with MI? Is the free GSpy so important to deserve a detour on a dead end tech?

Regardless, as soon as we have enough units to deal with Ramesses, we need to start spreading like the plague.
Representation + 3 offshore trade routes + the city tile and one more are enough to pay for any new city's maintenance, and we need to start getting all the available seafood.

I was thinking to raze both Ram's southernmost cities and plant one 1SW of the iron hill. This obviously is in contrast with your ICS strategy.

BTW, speaking of Sushi, i think i've found a good solution for Humbaba: We need a city there and it can be in the northernmost tile of the island to get 2 seafood in BFC. We need a fort in the "open" tile to have it connected and to move ships across.

 

[ZPV]

I think it needs both until we run Caste again. Or Sushi will be a dream.To get communism he needs Lib, which is a monopoly ATM.

Not really. Golden age starvation if needed, remember. 20-30 GPP/turn between now and then are insignificant.

Do you mean that we have to research it? What use can we have of the Kremlin with MI? Is the free GSpy so important to deserve a detour on a dead end tech?I was thinking to raze both Ram's southernmost cities and plant one 1SW of the iron hill. This obviously is in contrast with your ICS strategy.

BTW, speaking of Sushi, i think i've found a good solution for Humbaba: We need a city there and it can be in the northernmost tile of the island to get 2 seafood in BFC. We need a fort in the "open" tile to have it connected and to move ships across.

You still need to whip, even with Mining Inc.
It's the old investment vs spending thing again. It's far better to whip the levees, factories and coal plants, and then build wealth, than spend 10+ turns building them in each city.

edit: It's not certain that it's worth researching communism, but if we're struggling for the 3rd or 4th different great person then it definitely will be.

Also, new cities need to whip their granaries, courthouses, lighthouses, etc. We shouldn't wait for mining inc to fill them out on its own.

Any city on the barb inlet will be vulnerable to attack - it looks like there are two attack longbows who will board the galley if given a chance - so it'll have to be properly garrisoned.
Interestingly, there's a bunker and bomb shelters in Humbaba's Haven.

 

[Shaandore]

mining vs sushi:

The thing that makes mining inc. good is that it has very good synergies with other important techs. We get steel for warring, and we research the Steam power prereq for the ULTIMATE PRODUCTION tech, Assembly Line. I think that these together are stronger than the sushi beeline.

To put it simply: earlier factories=faster corporation spreading and teching. Also keep in mind that without levees, factories and coal plants we wouldn't have much to whip. After all those are the buldings we need. (In the newly conquered Ram cities we will need more infra, but it is about the quarter of our empire. The others don't need much more infra other than levees + factories + coal plants.)

With Assembly line, we could also continue warring on the other continent. Take the city that build Versailles. By that time we will be at a point that every new city increases our economic power (due to corporations.)

BTW what will be the 3rd corp? We will need some GP for that too. We could use civ jewelers or creative con in our two legendaries. Or we can let the AI establish something and take it later. (Although I have a little doubt that they will be fast enough for that)

 

[ZPV]

I don't think it's quite so clear-cut as that.

Size 10 cities with factories and no growth aren't what we are looking for. It's very easy to stall after AL, putting everything into building factories and coal plants, and nothing into research. If we have Biology (or maybe Sushi) already, then that doesn't happen.

 

[Shaandore]

There is some discussion about that in Duckweed's SSV guide thread here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=450456

Of course we need to apply things to this specific situation, but IMO our core cities have a nice farm base to grow steadily. And we don't have that many Sushi resorces.

It's hard to tell which is better, and impossible to calculate. That's why I'm inclined to follow the most experienced player's advice (that I know).

 

[ZPV]

We don't have many sushi resources yet - only 10. That will have to change quickly. There are two Egyptian ones we will conquer, and at least 13 we should settle very soon.

We also don't have a huge number of mining resources yet, either - currently 9 including imports, with 3 to capture. We'll want to settle the copper to the south of the old Celtic lands.

I think the real questions should be "how soon can we get 20-30 large well-developed cities?" and "which path to that point keeps our tech rate the highest?"

The biggest problem with Mining Inc is that it's slow to develop - we need a couple of expensive buildings in each city after the executive.
Sushi is faster because once you have the executive you're good to go - instead there's a time lag from taking a few turns to grow
Normally the right answer is to take the fast-developing thing first, unless the slower one completely overpowers it. I don't think we are close enough to having lots of large production cities for Mining Inc-->AL to do that.

It's the delays that make State Property competitive for a normal space victory.

 

[Shaandore]

If we can really get an easy Sci Meth trade, the tech costs are roughly equal. We can consider Ram dead by the time we can research either corps.

I think that the single best argument for mining first is that we can get AL much sooner. By the time we get AL, our prod cities will be ready to build/whip their factories. Whith smart mining inc. spreading we will give them a nice boost. The sushi first delays AL by a lot of turns. I look at AL as the equivalent of Oxford in the industrial era. Getting it sooner cuts down on our finish date.

Sushi is strong if we have a lot of small cities, because whipping is weaker in midsize and large cities (Otherwise food itself is not really useful at this stage: we don't have overimproved land to grow onto except in a very few cities. We want hammers/gold out of our corps.)

Mining gives roughly equal benefits for each city. The large ones can start their factories much sooner with a nice hammer boost (that goes through forges!), the small ones can start producing executives or wealth at an increased rate.

The way I see it: buy the time we get to AL, we will have mostly mid size cities with good or okay infrastructure that are waiting to build their factories.

Thus supposing the two corps give roughly equal benefits, Mining wins for making AL available sooner.

It would be good too hear the other's opinion on this matter though.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I'm awake! I can play through until Corp and report if you want... while you guys sort out what we do next. The Communism route does have some merit, Kremlin and a free GS for a GAge.

 

[BLubmuz]

Not really. Golden age starvation if needed, remember. 20-30 GPP/turn between now and then are insignificant.
When is "then"?

You still need to whip, even with Mining Inc.
It's the old investment vs spending thing again. It's far better to whip the levees, factories and coal plants, and then build wealth, than spend 10+ turns building them in each city.
10 turns? on normal speed you need 4 at most with MI and a decent amount of resources.

Also, new cities need to whip their granaries, courthouses, lighthouses, etc. We shouldn't wait for mining inc to fill them out on its own.
With MI - and an executive+missionary must walk with the settler - each of those buildings is built in 2, max 3 turns. What do you whip?
Any city on the barb inlet will be vulnerable to attack - it looks like there are two attack longbows who will board the galley if given a chance - so it'll have to be properly garrisoned.
Interestingly, there's a bunker and bomb shelters in Humbaba's Haven.

2 infantry or even just rifles are enough for defence. 2 more good units to protect the other 2 tiles and it's done. Let them attack amphibious. Or keep a frigate just outside the barb city, it's even cheaper. BTW we can already build frigates. I also suggest to invest 100 gold in the upgrade of the galley. As is it's of no use.

 

[BLubmuz]

If we can really get an easy Sci Meth trade, the tech costs are roughly equal. We can consider Ram dead by the time we can research either corps.
(...)
It would be good too hear the other's opinion on this matter though.

Since we have decided to not even tun the race for Physics, MI first is the way to go. Then, if we can even have SM in trade, good. At this point, the more we delay Sushi, the more we benefit from our shiny new wonders.

Executives must be built in 2 turns each, at most. There's a limit of 5. They need to travel, so a good tactic is to spread in the nearby cities, which in turn spread the next one and you can always have 5 in queue in different cities. There's 100% chance of spread. The second Corp needs some care, like missionaries in cities with already a religion.

The next corp can be SE. It gives a very good amount of raw beakers.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Just played one turn to 197. We got Con and Corp is 1 turn. However, Salad will trade SciMeth now. If he is going Physics, he can only have 1 turn into it. But, he really wants a lot for it. 3 of 4 of the following -- Con / Lib / Econ / Music

That's a LOT of tech.

EDIT: He will take 2 techs and 195g (not 140g)

 

[Shaandore]

If SciMeth is available now, it will be available next turn and later too, so we shouldn't trade for it since it obseletes many wonders. If we decide on sushi, we need to trade for it after corp though.

Folket, Unclethirll? Any input on mining vs sushi?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I didn't figure anyone would want to race him for Physics, but I wanted to let the team know the option existed...

EDIT: Well, Corp is one turn away, so we need to make the decision pretty quick. I'd say RR next. We have the GE to found it, and we don't know for certain about getting a when we get a GM.

 

[Folket]

I say we get mining inc first. Otherwise we will not have the GM when we need it.