SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

@Folket

We have agreed on Electricity->Radio and Galleon warfare. Green light from me until discovery of Radio, if you you do the modifications I suggested in posts #1584,#1587,#1588.

And please put in one last thing, switch EP to Saladin. We will have Babylon as vassal soon, no need to get more EP there.

Let me know if you disagree with any of these, or feel the need to discuss something. Since it seems that there is only the 3 of us right now, please move on as soon as Blub gives green light. I'm not sure we will get that extra 10 days, and 40 turns for 16 days=very bad.

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@Blubmuz

I think that our cities are set up for 2 legendaries, and they are well established in Gergovia and Orleans. On VCs we have 3 players who have said that UN+Dom is good for them (Folket, ZPV and myself). Since then Folket have mentioned AP, so his opinion might have changed, although he didn't really give an AP victory plan.
(Folket, a clarification here would be nice)

 

[Folket]

I agree with your posts.

I interpret your war prep comments as "We do not have time to wait for infantry. We need to strike as soon as possible with what we have." I will pump galleons and send them to Hammurabis land. the first galleons will unload and estimate how big army we need before we start the war. Once we have that army there we attack.

The attack will probably be the next player.

 

[Folket]

My AP victory plan is very simple.

We have option of wining AP in 31 turns or in 41 turns. Next after that is 61 turns.

AP is a good idea since we do not need to control our population. Since our vassal is not Buddhist he will not be up for vote so we do not need to control his population either.

All we have to do is keep down the spread of Buddhism in our empire and spread it to our vassal and one city in Arabian and Native American territory.

If we keep everyone at please we can probably get 100% of the votes since they will not be able to vote on anyone else.

 

[Folket]

If we want to win between turn 31 and 41 or after 41 we should get the UN.

 

[Folket]

PPP until we have radio.

Cities:
Sushi priority to
Gergovia
Giza
Bagacum
Uzbeck
Vienne
Rheims
Heliopolis
Tolosa
Orleans
Verlamion
These cities will slowbuild infrastructure to get as high pop as possible.
Thebes and Paris will also get early.

Other cities will build wealth til they are size 10, then whip factory and coal plant.
My estimate is that this is more effective then slowbuilding factories they are unable to whip. 1 turn of production into both factory and coal plant before whip.

Don't start building wealth in any new city unless it has basic infra. That includes Granary, Courthouse, Forge, Library. Even lighthouse if the city has sushi resource. Eg. Poitier can build a library in 1 turn, and run a scientists after that.

Build leeve in Heliopolis.

Optimize tiles in Orleans, i.e. change hammers to artists.

Get 4 theatres and get a globe theatre in Gergovia as soon as possible.

Build culture in Orleans and Gergovia when cathedrals and artist buildings are not available.

Build 5 Sushi people every turn until we need to ferry them.

War:
Build galleons and start transport immidiatly to Babylonian/Arabian land to wait for the war with Hammurabi. Can start a shuttle traffic now and then plan to have three full galleon outside Babylon. Build 3 spies to bring down defences. Babylon can be bombarded.

New cities:
No more settler.

Civics, GPP:
I think we should launch a golden age in three turn and change to cast system pacifism.

Diplo:
Sell replaceable parts to China.
Gift one resources to Sitting bull. (silk?) Accept any demand by sitting bull (not corp resources).
He is far behind and it will be easier for us to control the game if we can get him to pleased and keep him there.
We also want to keep all opponents at pleased as otherwise they could join our war with Hammurabi and Hammurabi would peace vassal to them.
Trades for resources.
Put all EP against Saladin.

Research:
Electricity->Radio->Combustion->Flight

workers:
Build farms around
Giza
Gergovia
Bagacum
Uzbeck
Vienne
Rheims
Heliopolis
Tolosa
Orleans
Verlamion

Don't forget.
workboat in Rouen.
produce Culture in Alexandria for one turn with a workboat somewhere.
artists in Orleans and Gergovia.

 

[ZPV]

We can't really predict AP elections quite so easily as counting from the date it was built, because when there are no resolutions available, entire voting cycles get reduced to one turn.

For a 2nd or 3rd UN resolution, add 6/12 turns to the final date. I don't remember whether there are 3 or 4 elections before a new secretary general is elected, but we shouldn't need more than 3 anyway.

I'd be disappointed by an average of 3000bpt from here on in. The shortness of the game probably means we'll only need one more golden age. That will affect GP priorities.

Gergovia+Orleans, definitely.
The whole point of building NE in Gergovia was because it would work the most artists.

Honestly, I don't see the deadline as a problem. I'm up next and can plan out and play 20 turns in 3 days fairly accurately.

 

[Folket]

One thing I did not agree with.

I do not think we need to run 100% research right now. I think the other priorities are higher.

War/executives/culture.

My research goals were
1500/1605/1717/1837/1966/2103
Which perhaps are a little slow to radio but aims for a 31 turn future tech.

 

[BLubmuz]

So, the team is goin' to aim for a Dom+UN victory? If so, i'd like to see a plan. I get lost on this.
Plan:
cities to take and keep before UN
who vassal and possible cities to liberate
pop to have
Dom: how? which cities? settlers ready? how many?

or something like that

in any case this will help me and ZPV, we are in charge of the 2 final TS since we speak of 41 turns. Also Folket's plan can be affected by a clear final plan.

How will be the GAge started? Which GPersons?

 

[Shaandore]

@ZPV: good news that you are available! It seemed that you have been much more busy lately.
3000bpt: yes, this was an understatement. In the same post I said that it would be better, and I calculated with 4000 average bpt, that would bring us Future tech 1 in ~35 turns.

@Folket: I don't see why we would need to keep a steady bpt growth. Just do it as it is natural. If other priorities are higher, then fine, we get Electricity in 4 turns. But don't generate more excess gold than what we immediately need. We will get some money here and there (trades, conquest) so no need to conserve money. We better move on with techs too.

 

[Folket]

There is no reason to be slow to get to radio.

I revise my beaker goals to
2000/2100/2205/2315/2431/2552

 

[ZPV]

One thing I did not agree with.

I do not think we need to run 100% research right now. I think the other priorities are higher.

War/executives/culture.

My research goals were
1500/1605/1717/1837/1966/2103
Which perhaps are a little slow to radio but aims for a 31 turn future tech.

If we have enough wealth to run 100% research, while still doing the other stuff we need, we should do it. We have better science multipliers than gold multipliers.

i.e. Just don't keep the slider artificially low to match those numbers.

edit: Xpost. No problem now.

 

[Folket]

I will not generate excess gold it is just a good measure to have. To see if you are on track and how much you plan to invest in something that will pay off later.

 

[Shaandore]

@Blub: those details should be in ZPV's and your PPP.

Here is a draft plan (based on mainly ZPV's posts):

The golden age will certainly be started in ZPV's turnset, because we still need to grow the megacities.

I think we agreed on Babylon as vassal. We take Dur-K. and Babylon, and possibly a couple more cities to vassal him. We don't liberate anything, that can wait until we see how we stand on Dom limit. Even with fully conquering Babylon, we can't reach domination, so it is safe.

Our next target could be china, they have a lot of land. We raze the cities, and send settlers in the area.

Around the time of the vote, we whip our cities so we are under 60% pop, but together with Babylon we are at more than 60%.

In the meantime we build the UN with the timetable that ZPV posted. If Saladin somehow gets to Mass Media sooner (we will se his research), then we build the UN sooner, and we will have a +-6 turn uncertainty on finish date.

After we win the vote, we settle cities in old Chinese land and reach Domination.

 

[Folket]

I use my goal as a guide line. If I'm above it I look for the best development opportunities and if I'm below it I look to cancel the worst developments.

If I'm just unable to reach them then I will have to accept that or if we have no more opportunities.

Only Shaandore is commenting on my red dots. No one else cares?

 

[ZPV]

Could you sketch your calculations for the filler cities, please?
I see that they could pay off in terms of research, but am not sure how much, or if they conflict with other priorities.

 

[Shaandore]

Let's say we settle a city this turn with 2 executives ready.

In 35 turns, they would neet to pay for 1 settler, 2 excutives (300 hammer), ~150 gold Corp spreading, plus (if not on mainland) busy galleons. They would need to bring in 13 gpt after paying maintenance (-24 gold for Bibracte)

hammer output-maintenance+24>13

Since maintenance is ~50 gold without courthouse, we would have to build a courthouse. We won't really have time to whip these, sicne most won't grow to size before we switch to caste.

Provided we build a courthouse as first build, we can get it in 6 turns (maybe 5, but growth is slow without Granary...). During that we bleed 6*(50-24)~150 more gold, meaning we have to get ~600 in the remaining 29 turns. This seems unlikely with 20 hpt, since we still need to subtract maintenance (~30-24>0).

 

[Folket]

First without sid sushi.
200 hammers for settler and 1 executives.
Maintainence between 23 and 29, depending on where it is.
12 gold from corporation.
12 gold from trade routes on an island. 8 on land.
This will increase to 13 gold on island in one turns, 14 in two. Will soon be 16 gold when we have 4+ cities above 18. When we have four 25 size cities the trade routes will give us 20 gold.
20 gold from hammers.
4 gold from citizen.
So return will be 20+ (10+%) if we have no infrastructure at all. It also opens opportunities for investments.

Courthouse 120 (/1.25) hammers for 15 gold. 15% (12%) return.
library 90 (/2.25) hammers for 10 gold (100% research). 25% (22%) return.
forge 120 (/2.25) hammer for 5 gold. 9% (8%) return.
In parenthesis we have return when not running OR.
This returns get better if we allow the city to grow.

As you can see island cities give very good returns while one square cities on the other side of the continent only gives 5% return, but still opens up opportunities.

Once we have cast system the cities will have even better returns. It is harder to calculate the return of Sid sushi.

 

[Folket]

I forgot the 75 gold cost for spreading the corp. That means the initial investment only have a return of 7+%. But it will still be 10% for island cities close to Paris.

 

[Folket]

Shaandore is probably right that Sid Sushi is not worth it.

What is the return for no corporation. Island city relatively close.

100 gold input.
16 gold from trade routes.
11 gold maintenance.
5 gold from hammers and citizen.
10% return.

It is fine but will slow new investments. MI seems worth it to build library fast.

 

[Shaandore]

You need to count the settler, the executive and the spreading cost as gold. That is ~270 gold input.

With MI only we get 12 gold in Bibracte.
We pay ~30 maintenance without courthouse.

Now take into account that we have better sites to settle in following 2-3 turns, so these won't be settled in next two turns.

Thus in ~25 turns (truns left after Courthouse is ready) we need to make up for 270 gold plus 6*(30-12) maintenance. It is barely worth it. We won't get more than 50 gold grand total out of these until game ends.

Conclusion: It's okay if we settle some inland red dots, but transporting to islands is not worth it. Even then, we might get better returns if we don't do it.

EDIT: I forgot trade routes. Okay, with MI only it is worth it. Our only build should be courthouse. Settle only when MI executive is in place, and the blue dots are settled. Only on our landmass, and only if we can settle during your turnset.