SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

Kaitzilla · Dec 1, 2012

Sabotage Production ~~Building Values~~:
T117/T118 etc.

Bibracte: -/405/-/140/-/85
Vienne: -/109/-/-/141/161
Tolosa: 193/-/208/363/-/92
Durocortorum(Starts T121): -/6
Isca(Starts T122): 95
====================
Thebes: 1725/1897/2070/2173/2277/2511
Memphis: 261/297/332/35/84/162
Heliopolis: 199/228/257/35/64/157
Elephantine: 84/89/104/-/24/64
Alexandria: 255/310/-/82/131/200
Pi-Ramesses: 37/52/68/15/30/75

Brennus(Calendar): 51T/25T/48T/24T/20T/19T

T116 - Gifted Ramesses Theology and got to +4 trade relations
Traded Priesthood+Theology to Brennus for 40g and got +2 trade relations
T117 - Ramesses is now the Worst Enemy of Brennus. He teched Fishing instead of Music

He has 40g and is pleased with us.

Shall I beg him for 40 gold? I don't dare trade him anything and anger Brennus right now. OK, no beg for now. Not sure of a good amount to beg for.

Eve has found a barb city 4E4S of Pi-Ramesses. Will start exploring eastwards inside Ramesses borders to find 7th city. South into the wilderness is risky for warrior.
T118 - Confuscianism spread to TrojanHorse. The scout found fish 2N of each artic island in the top right, but no city can reach more than 1 seafood including that southern clam. So 2 new fish discovered.
T119 - Traded Code of Laws to Brennus for 10g and are now at +3 trade relations. Should be able to sign open borders T121 when shared civic ticks again.
T120 - Nothing eventful. Another northern arctic fish discovered, so all northern arctic islands have 1 fish each.
T121 - Great Spy born in Thebes for Ramesses. Signed Open Borders with Brennus. Will trade fish for gems next turn to stretch the 10 turns we will have them better. Brennus settled an 11th city in a distant land Nemetocenna, so the gpt needed to be gifted to him T124 probably jumped from 6gpt to more like 12gpt.

Adam scouted Durocortorum in the far west. Defended by 1 chariot. No workers or settlers spotted so far.
We are +10 relations with Ramesses now and Cautious with Brennus at +0.

Ramesses teched Sailing. Brennus is willing to DoW Ramesses for the right bribe.
T122 - Ramesses started a golden age. Hanging Gardens is ours

.
Adam found Isca 2S of corn with a garrison CombatI Axe and and CGI Archer. There are 2 workers on the corn. Doh!
A Ramesses catapult stepped out of Ramesses borders onto a hill in front of Eve and was immediately destroyed by a barb ~~archer~~Axe :eek:

Game uploaded T122!

Turnset Log: Gah, I accidently closed the window for it before I could copy/paste >_<. Is there some way I could see it again somewhere?

Buffy Log:

Spoiler :

Manco Capac · Dec 1, 2012

@Kaitzilla

If ever Ramesses asks a gift like in:

A demand from Ramesses will be awkward, especially if he asks for something after he becomes Brennus' worst enemy and we don't have open borders/gems yet.

Report it so I can dig up the code and see the impact of such gift.

EDIT: Unless there is something I don't know on how proceed LC to see city builds, you also need "city investigation values" and "AI espionage amounts on you" to fully make use of those sabotage values.

bcool · Dec 1, 2012

If you want feedback Kaitzilla, edits are probably not the best way to ask for it.

I personally wouldn't beg for 40 gold unless you think there is a risk of him attacking us.

Are we screwed now because they are worst enemies? Since we can't gift Brennus more techs and get OB?

Kaitzilla · Dec 1, 2012

bcool said:
If you want feedback Kaitzilla, edits are probably not the best way to ask for it.

I personally wouldn't beg for 40 gold unless you think there is a risk of him attacking us.

Are we screwed now because they are worst enemies? Since we can't gift Brennus more techs and get OB?

Na, Ramesses is pleased with us. He cannot plot war against us at pleased. Brennus is the same way, but we'll never get him to pleased without converting him totally to our religion.

Ramesses is Cautious with Brennus, so no WE worries there trading with Brennus. Ramesses only gets to -2 for different religions and shared civic should keep Ramesses at Cautious with Brennus.

I'll make new posts when asking a question thanks!

Manco Capac · Dec 1, 2012

bcool said:
I personally wouldn't beg for 40 gold unless you think there is a risk of him attacking us.

Is it because we potentially have better chance to get bigger since that begging is the first (is it?)?

Kaitzilla · Dec 1, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
Is it because we potentially have better chance to get bigger since that begging is the first (is it?)?

I have no idea what to beg for on normal speed knowing the AI for 100 turns. I'll leave the beg for later.

Manco Capac · Dec 1, 2012

*snip*

Kaitzilla · Dec 1, 2012

I uploaded the game on T122 so we can decide if we wish to go forward with the Jungle Pigs bait city idea or call it off and send the spies on through. Everything has gone to plan so far except Brennus settling an 11th city making his economy even more terrible. Probably 12-15gpt needs to be gifted to him before he will take Jungle Pigs. Maybe sell him Currency? That would be like +11gpt for him I think or more if he builds wealth. But those longbows later...

Still need to do the fish for gems deal if we want gems from Brennus.

We also need to decide what to trade Ramesses for Construction and Aesthetics. He should be done with that wonder someday. He just got some gpt finally on T122 also.

T122 Screenshots:

Spoiler :

bcool · Dec 1, 2012

excellent news on the Hanging Gardens!

I don't know what to do about Ramesses trade and Brennus... will look at the save.

But excellent work so far Kaitzilla :goodjob:

I think we should
1) settle pigs/clams anyways (and get an immediate pop from hanging gardens) and keep it for ourselves (can whip it owns workboat with the Hanging gardens extra pop perhaps)
2) send the missionary and spy down to Brennus gems city, send back up spy there too.
3) attempt steal IW from Brennus gems city
4) backup spy jumps in if 1st spy fails
because
a)The cost of getting Brennus out of financial trouble seems to high
b) cancelling the gold trades by DoW ruins our trade with him which is quite good (11 trade routes isn't too shabby)
c) we can survive it seems without ironworking without significant threat
d) cost of espionage in gems city seems low enoughespecially if we spread confu to him
e) (spreading confu to him means we also have AP protection from a war declaration by him) (although the possibilities for holy war are reduced--still can grab the confu city from him and declare holy war after)
f) keeping the gems trade is nice too
g) brennus isn't ramesses worst enemy so we won't get demands from ramesses to cancel trade with him (and will avoid the problems of denying that request)

re: ramesses trades
trading currency and metal casting for construction and aesthetics seems best to me. We want to try and keep the path to liberalism a bit slowed so we can use liberalism ourselves for something juicy later on.

Kaitzilla · Dec 2, 2012

Mmm. Pretty tired. I'll play the rest tomorrow if all goes well. No rush.

Wish I had video of the Ramesses Catapult. I was thinking as it left Egypt's borders and it rolled onto that hill "maybe I can follow it" and then WHAM!

Kaitzilla · Dec 2, 2012

Hmm, not sure we can keep gems. LTC pointed out earlier somewhere that if we go back to "Annoyed" with Brennus the deal will expire after 10 turns.

Once we start trading with Ramesses on T123 (Friendly

), "worst enemy" penalties will start stacking up with Brennus because Brennus hates Ramesses and we will be back at "Annoyed" with Brennus pretty quickly.

I really do like the open borders though. Those stay forever until a war breaks out according to LTC.

I can see the point about expenses though. Save 150 espionage by spending 150 gold? And gamble a city? Could just wait 7 more turns for Iron Working and build catapults. Hmm

LowtherCastle · Dec 2, 2012

T122 Analysis

1. Brennus settled Nemetocenna at Bibracte-3W1S. (Or at -3W but that's on the silk. Brennus' land tiles stayed at 152, meaning he settled Neme entirely inside his existing culture. Only these two tiles are possible.)
2. Giza and Bagacum are not connected yet, which is why we don't have 3c TRs with them in Lyons (I assume, haven't tested this). Giza is at Alexandria-3E2S. Bagacum is either inland tight to Brennus culture (only gained 5 land tiles when settled) or on the coast but blocked by a barb city.
3. I counted about 105 unowned tiles on our landmass, including fogged land tiles. The barb city's 3 garrisons count against the quota of spawning barb units. So if there are still 3 garrison alive, plus that barb axe, there are a lleast 140 unowned tiles or that axe spawned before the city. Unless there is a whole lot of land to the south, there won't be too many barbs roaming around.

If we want to research Literature, as Kaitzilla discussed, then we'll want a 10XP unit for the Heroic Epic, probably in Drunk~~enSoldiers~~Pigs. We might want to send Boudica down there asap to farm XP while it's still possible. From the safety of Ramesses' safe land would be an excellent place to do that.

mabraham · Dec 2, 2012

bcool said:
excellent news on the Hanging Gardens!

I don't know what to do about Ramesses trade and Brennus... will look at the save.

But excellent work so far Kaitzilla

I think we should
1) settle pigs/clams anyways (and get an immediate pop from hanging gardens) and keep it for ourselves (can whip it owns workboat with the Hanging gardens extra pop perhaps)
2) send the missionary and spy down to Brennus gems city, send back up spy there too.
3) attempt steal IW from Brennus gems city
4) backup spy jumps in if 1st spy fails
because
a)The cost of getting Brennus out of financial trouble seems to high
b) cancelling the gold trades by DoW ruins our trade with him which is quite good (11 trade routes isn't too shabby)
c) we can survive it seems without ironworking without significant threat
d) cost of espionage in gems city seems low enoughespecially if we spread confu to him
e) (spreading confu to him means we also have AP protection from a war declaration by him) (although the possibilities for holy war are reduced--still can grab the confu city from him and declare holy war after)
f) keeping the gems trade is nice too
g) brennus isn't ramesses worst enemy so we won't get demands from ramesses to cancel trade with him (and will avoid the problems of denying that request)

re: ramesses trades
trading currency and metal casting for construction and aesthetics seems best to me. We want to try and keep the path to liberalism a bit slowed so we can use liberalism ourselves for something juicy later on.

Agree completely with all. Brennus may have cost us another 50 :gold:

for the gift plan with his 11th city? And if nothing else, the complexity of planning for gifts and resolutions and steals and diplo takes us a lot of RL time, whereas someone like Kaitzilla should appreciate the simplicity of keeping a decent city, stealing at decent cost and odds, and having an excuse to begin preparing an army. :lol:

mabraham · Dec 2, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
T122 Analysis

1. Brennus settled Nemetocenna at Bibracte-3W1S. (Or at -3W but that's on the silk. Brennus' land tiles stayed at 152, meaning he settled Neme entirely inside his existing culture. Only these two tiles are possible.)
2. Giza and Bagacum are not connected yet, which is why we don't have 3c TRs with them in Lyons (I assume, haven't tested this). Giza is at Alexandria-3E2S. Bagacum is either inland tight to Brennus culture (only gained 5 land tiles when settled) or on the coast but blocked by a barb city.
3. I counted about 105 unowned tiles on our landmass, including fogged land tiles. The barb city's 3 garrisons count against the quota of spawning barb units. So if there are still 3 garrison alive, plus that barb axe, there are a lleast 140 unowned tiles or that axe spawned before the city. Unless there is a whole lot of land to the south, there won't be too many barbs roaming around.

If we want to research Literature, as Kaitzilla discussed, then we'll want a 10XP unit for the Heroic Epic, probably in Drunk~~enSoldiers~~Pigs. We might want to send Boudica down there asap to farm XP while it's still possible. From the safety of Ramesses' safe land would be an excellent place to do that.

Happy to send Boudica down on the chance, but it seems a slim chance with Brennus's settling rate. Would rather secure the sugar-clams site first.

But shouldn't we rely on Ramesses to get Literature for us and to trade it from him? We're in no hurry for Lit - don't really want access to any of the three wonders - the hurry is in getting Music after someone gets Lit. I'd much rather pursue Machinery for access to decent military units (crossbows & maces, assuming IW+iron) and the option to get Optics and get some trans-continental trade (HBR, Mona, Philo,. If somehow we can assess Brennus is not coming for us (or that we're safe as AP resident) then Education is another option.

mabraham · Dec 2, 2012

Bump: There's land SW of Pi-Ramesses that I mentioned at the end of last turn set (500 posts ago). If Eve is not doing anything useful and we can judge it's safe, scouting the western coast might tell us something.

mabraham · Dec 2, 2012

Also, now that we have Currency, if we meet another AI

lol

then we want to have a plan for giving them a gift the turn we meet them (or right after) because the "fair trade" value is very high early on.

LowtherCastle · Dec 2, 2012

mabraham said:
...the option to get Optics...

mabraham said:
Bump: There's land SW of Pi-Ramesses that I mentioned at the end of last turn set (500 posts ago). If Eve is not doing anything useful and we can judge it's safe, scouting the western coast might tell us something.

I agree that it would be nice to determine if that oversea tile is connected to our landmass or not, if Eve can safely do it, which I doubt right now. Optics is also nice for meeting others with caravels.

Just to change the topic slightly, I wanted to make sure we're all clear on the differences between

what a sentry on a galley sees and
what a galley with Optics sees.

Look at what happens when the sentry-promoted chariot is on the galley, with and without Optics. Notably, the pre-Optics sentry promotion gives +2 tiles of vision over water if the second tile is land.

.

LowtherCastle · Dec 2, 2012

bcool said:
I think we should
1) settle pigs/clams anyways (and get an immediate pop from hanging gardens) and keep it for ourselves (can whip it owns workboat with the Hanging gardens extra pop perhaps)
2) send the missionary and spy down to Brennus gems city, send back up spy there too.
3) attempt steal IW from Brennus gems city
4) backup spy jumps in if 1st spy fails

I agree.

bcool said:
re: ramesses trades
trading currency and metal casting for construction and aesthetics seems best to me. We want to try and keep the path to liberalism a bit slowed so we can use liberalism ourselves for something juicy later on.

I'm not sure about this yet. AIs evidently plan tech sequences 2 0r 3 techs deep sometimes, so Ramesses might be on a Fishing-Sailing-Calendar sequence. We definitely want Calendar asap. Furthermore, after we get Aesthetics, he'll have Drama available. We need to maximize our gains here. One other possibility is that he'll tech one of the techs we have and it will lose some trade value.

Kaitzilla · Dec 2, 2012

Ok, that's three people who want to settle Jungle Pigs but not give it away and just send the spies on through southwards. Looks like that's what I'll do then

Will whip the workboat right away since being Size 2 isn't any better than Size 1 in such a crappy city and get the whip timer going sooner.

Hopefully the Conf. Missionary doesn't fail spreading to Camulodunum, but with 88% odds it looks worth trying.

Fritz will complete the road to Jungle Pigs on T122-T123. It is too useful as a route south not to.

I'll have Paris complete the barracks and work on a forge next. Don't need a 3rd spy just yet. Working an Engineer specialist would give us 80% odds for a Great Engineer someday.

Horse City will be making another Confuscian Missionary T123ish to head down to the Drunk Pigs area to spread our religion to one of the cities down there.

I'm not really that thrilled about pursuing wonders past Colossus in Orleans. We need military next turnset. Paris can always whip a market to cull population when it looks like the gems deal might expire and we aren't ready for action yet. Market in Paris is like 14gpt when we do 0% science slider and will be needed if we don't get a Great Merchant.

Now for the main question left for the turnset. Trading with Ramesses. Once the gems deal is signed T122, I'm not really worried about the diplo situation anymore. Other than converting Brennus to our religion, there isn't more we can do to keep him Cautious with us.

Ramesses probably won't trade Aesthetics until he finishes whatever wonder he is working on in Thebes. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later thanks to his Golden Age.

We need Construction though. Think of the cheap Colloseums. :lol:

er, catapults! We might be able to trade Currency+20g for it according to the test game. We should find out T123 when Friendly hits thanks to our resource gifts. If he offers both Aesthetics and Construction, that is a good question. Metal Casting is more valuable than Aesthetics. And if he is researching Calendar, then Calendar is better than Aesthetics.

I'd say do the deal anyway. Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If he does do Calendar, then we can trade Civil Service for Calendar+Drama maybe and try a Machinery for Music trade later if Ramesses ever gets around to it.

As for the next tech we research, Horseback Riding hmmm. I'll be doing 0% science slider my last 3 turns, so I can safely punt that decision for the next person I think.

Is canceling the fish gift and rewewing it for 2gpt T122 acceptable? Ramesses got fishing 5 turns ago so he won't want is soon anymore because fish is inside Pi-Ramesses BFC.

With Boudica, we might do a unit swap using our galley heading back down from Orleans on T123. It drops off the clam/sugar settler T127ish, picks up Boudica, heads south to Egypt about T130, and then drops its passenger/GM off and picks up Eve and carries Eve north to garrison clams/sugar while Boudica heads south to hunt axemen one movement point at a time.

mabraham · Dec 2, 2012

Kaitzilla said:
Ok, that's three people who want to settle Jungle Pigs but not give it away and just send the spies on through southwards. Looks like that's what I'll do then

Will whip the workboat right away since being Size 2 isn't any better than Size 1 in such a crappy city and get the whip timer going sooner.

Hopefully the Conf. Missionary doesn't fail spreading to Camulodunum, but with 88% odds it looks worth trying.

Fritz will complete the road to Jungle Pigs on T122-T123. It is too useful as a route south not to.

I'll have Paris complete the barracks and work on a forge next. Don't need a 3rd spy just yet. Working an Engineer specialist would give us 80% odds for a Great Engineer someday.

I'm not really that thrilled about pursuing wonders past Colossus in Orleans. We need military next turnset. Paris can always whip a market to cull population when it looks like the gems deal might expire and we aren't ready for action yet. Market in Paris is like 14gpt when we do 0% science slider and will be needed if we don't get a Great Merchant.

Sure - but definitely growth in Paris if we get GMerchant. We can pick the growth target next set, but we want to maximize it for now.

Now for the main question left for the turnset. Trading with Ramesses. Once the gems deal is signed T122, I'm not really worried about the diplo situation anymore. Other than converting Brennus to our religion, there isn't more we can do to keep him Cautious with us.

Ramesses probably won't trade Aesthetics until he finishes whatever wonder he is working on in Thebes. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later thanks to his Golden Age.

We need Construction though. Think of the cheap Colloseums. er, catapults! We might be able to trade Currency+20g for it according to the test game. We should find out T123 when Friendly hits thanks to our resource gifts. If he offers both Aesthetics and Construction, that is a good question. Metal Casting is more valuable than Aesthetics. And if he is researching Calendar, then Calendar is better than Aesthetics.

I'd say do the deal anyway. Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If he does do Calendar, then we can trade Civil Service for Calendar+Drama maybe and try a Machinery for Music trade later if Ramesses ever gets around to it.

What's the rush to trade for Construction? We'll always have a tech to trade to Ramesses for Construction if Brennus comes to call. If Ramesses teched Currency next that would suck a bit, but his flavours don't suit Currency. It's not like we have bored cities - TH hasn't built Confu buildings, Paris and Orleans haven't built forges (and we'll want some missionaries out of somewhere soon) and the newer cities are all still doing basic infrastructure.

As for the next tech we research, Horseback Riding hmmm. I'll be doing 0% science slider my last 3 turns, so I can safely punt that decision for the next person I think.

In that case, minimize the overflow onto your random tech of choice.

I'm greatly unenthused by the thought of war against axes and gallic warriors with a axe/HA/cat composition (assuming iron, HBR and trading Construction). Here's a list of things I think relevant to that point of view
a) War has the upside of capturing some more decent land, but the stuff we'll get early has gems and jungle. We could stay at peace and get gems!
b) We've got the option of waiting ~12 more turns and going with mace/cat, which has the side benefit of crossbows, being closer to Eng or Optics, and not teching something whose benefit is doubtful.
c) Brennus has walls in his core cities, which will take ages to bombard with cats.
d) His tech is stagnated because of his over-expansion, and we don't have any sort of a military edge, so we're not on any kind of clock there.
e) He's not a strategic threat (assuming we get IW and iron, and we've got options even then), but he has some land we think may as well belong to us.
f) Leaving him some more time to clear his jungle has its upsides.
g) We have long-term city infrastructure to build, including Colossus, Sistine.
h) We have missionary spreading to do
i) We're settling two city sites this turn, have three more obvious sites (sugar-clams, island FP, double fish up north), possibilities to the NE, and one or two more marginal sites we'd settle if iron was there.
j) Our workers have plenty to do already

HBR does give us the option of stables+barracks for a sentry chariot for a galley, but in which of four directions would we send it?

Is canceling the fish gift and rewewing it for 2gpt T122 acceptable?

Sure - so long as he doesn't have fish himself.

With Boudica, we might do a unit swap using our galley heading back down from Orleans on T123. It drops off the clam/sugar settler T127ish, picks up Boudica, heads south to Egypt about T130, and then drops its passenger/GM off and picks up Eve and carries Eve north to garrison clams/sugar while Boudica heads south to hunt axemen one movement point at a time.

Sounds good.

SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

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