SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

AlanH

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Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 16 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the
Maintenance Thread
for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck, and have fun. Remember, it's just a GAME! :mischief:
 
Welcome back everyone! The rules of play are just copied from our last sgotm together. But you might want to skim through them again as a refresher.

If you want to suggest any changes please let me know.

The Rules of Play

1. All standard GOTM rules apply. Mainly, we get 1 shot, no replays, period!
2. No viewing other team threads, period!
3. Have FUN, compete fairly, argue your points until your fingers bleed, or you convince a majority that your plan is superior!

The following rules have been stolen from Murky Waters and editted, all credit given to Erkon.

The following rules apply to all players in the Kakumeika SGOTM 16 team.

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread)* and follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 16 Maintenance Thread

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 24 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. These rules replaces guideline 6 and 7 in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 24 hours.

After posting the "got it" please put up a roughdraft of a the Grand Strategy and a Goal Oriented Pre-Play-Plan (PPP) within 24 hours of the "got it". If you can't for whatever reason put up a roughdraft of your PPP within 24 hours of the got it please request to postpone or pass your turn to the next player.

To facilitate the group consensus style of play we had in the last game and to make it easier for active player and the team to be involved I suggest a 3 part planning process for turns starting with the grand strategy.

The grand strategy is the strategy that we currently are pursuing to win the game. It was suggested that we keep the grand strategy on the first page. I'm happy to reserve a space and do that, however I think it is should also be copied and posted again before each turn set by the active player so that it is fresh in that player's mind and we don't miss some opportunity to change the plan for the better.

So I suggest the active player copy, review, and suggest changes to the grand strategy before they plan the goals and details of their turn set. The grand strategy would include the victory condition and the stages or phases of the game we need to achieve that victory condition.

For example the Ducks grand strategy in the last game was something like (*just for example purposes--not sure this is exactly right*)
-Goal Fastest Conquest
-expand and set up bulb of mathematics and chop out key city improvements
-build the Oracle and get Code of Laws
-settle and grow 6-8 cities
-generate enough great scientists to bulb to astronomy
-switch to war effort and kill everything including the wizard

An individual turn set would probably only happen in one of the phases that I laid out in the example above, but it is important for us to review the grand strategy before we make the specific plans for our turn sets.

Our grand strategy will obviously develop as we learn more about the game through exploration, testing and discussion and could completely change depending on how things develop.

Once the grand strategy is reviewed by the active player and the current turn is put into that context, the active player can develop a more specific plan for their turn set but still goal orientated rather than planned out with micro.

The player can post a goal oriented Pre-Play-Plan (PPP)
The goal oriented PPP would include:
research (& research trades)
city builds (not tile use)
worker goals (not turn by turn movements)
diplo actions (including resource trades, war declarations, begs, etc)
civic changes planned
espionage
general war plans if applicable, i.e. take this city first or form stack here
stopping points
contingency plans

The purpose of posting a goal oriented PPP first is to save the active player some work. The other players would be asked to suggest changes to the goal oriented PPP before the micro details (turn by turn city builds, tile use, worker movements, whips, chops, war movements) are planned out.

Once the specific goals are agreed upon, then the active player can develop a micro plan which includes the micro details the team thinks this is necessary. (Or the active player can request help with an aspect of the micro from someone else on the team)

Once the micro PPP is produced (same as the goal oriented PPP just with micro details), another round of feedback can start if necessary.

Of course in the course of working out the specific goals, or the micro new opportunities might arise, so it might not be a linear process.

After the goal oriented PPP is posted give the team at least 24 hours to respond. Do you best to respond quickly to any feedback by editting your PPP or by posting why you disagree. We hope to keep this response time to maximum of 48 hours, however if there is still a lot of disargeement after 48 hours, I'll extend this discussion period.

After the 24 hours (minimum) discussion time, post a detailed PPP with all necessary micro and allow another 24 hours for players to comment. If possible after that post a time 12-24 hours in advance of when you intend to play to allow others to either follow by online chat or just to be online for posts.

We are also encouraging players to chat online if possible during their turnsets so an availiable team member can be consulted for significant unexpected events or just to be included for exciting developments as you play. This may not be possible for everyone and we will exchange contact info for those interested by pm.

We also encourage you to stop playing a turnset and upload if something unexpected and/or unplanned for happens.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets if they announce the swap in time. Since the captain has a memory capacity of a demented gold fish, I urge you to make it clear when you intend to skip a turn. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unnecessary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humor, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language. The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond.

We hope we can come to a consensus on most issues, but if we can not it should be decided by the active player after the team has debated the issue. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city. Don't be afraid to admit a mistake or off-plan move as well. We all will make some especially with difficulty of tracking so many details.

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you.

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to pollute the great person pool. Please respect the micro management plans.

Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves.

If you PM the team, please ensure every one receives a copy.

Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one else's, and is therefore valuable.

The goals for Kakumeika are
1) to get the GOLD!
2) learn something through exhaustive debate about the grand strategy, the goals for each turn set, the inner-workings of the code, and best micro plans.
3) have fun ('cause learning is fun )

Ensure that your autosave config is set to save every turn. Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 0. This will reduce future confusion.

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn you get the report. ****This is a change from the last game**** So if the research for polytheism shows it will be completed at the end of T12 then when T13 starts we get the report of our completion of polytheism. Please report that polytheism finished on T13. Or if we build an axeman and it will finish at the end of T25, report that it finished on T26 (the first turn that we can actually move the axeman).

When we have uploaded the final save, and this has been reported by the active player, you are free to read other team threads. When their game is over, you are free to post in their threads as well.
 
Turn Order (mostly random except for mabraham and STW)

1. mabraham
2. Tachywaxon
3. bcool
4. WastinTime
5. Walter_Wolf
6. Kaitzilla
7. Sun Tzu Wu
8. shulec

Grand Strategy tentative

Goal domination and religious victory
respond to what we find from scouting
Use large corporation-empowered, near-domination-size empire to power through research to FT1
Worker stealing is so important I think we have to plan for it even perhaps if we have only 1 AI on our continent (we can steal techs from the them too even if we can't trade)
Use Oracle for Code of Laws and help set up the 2 legendary culture cities
Ideally build Pyramids with stone to help with great engineer and our research (and to help handle an early expansion and still maintain a decent tech rate)
Ideally build the Great Light House since we have found lots of good coastal sites.
build early AP and early Univ of S to help with research while expanding rapidly via REX and early conquest
build sistine chapel and early temple and early monastery in our 2 planned legendary cities. Early temple and early monastery to get some synergy with AP and Univ of S. and get their culture doubled (with sistine chapel an old temple and old monastery go a long ways to getting legendary culture)
build most of our wonders in 2 planned legendary cities
Early astronomy for tech trading and trade routes? Plus might want to conquer an AI over on the other continent early to set up for domination win.
Early biology and early sushi to help recover from lots of Organized religion whipping of temples and monasteries plus sushi for the culture.
 

Attachments

  • Shulec BC-0475 - Test Game T96.CivBeyondSwordSave
    169.4 KB · Views: 52
Hi all, welcome back. Time to finally get that gold!

This does look like being a very long game, so we probably should focus on getting some decent turn progress early. Refining detailed micro plans are probably not worth the cost in real world time, except maybe the first 50 turns or for a critical wonder.

I've got a thesis to submit October 9, a holiday to take, a move to Stockholm and starting a job there, so I won't be available for play at all in October. I'd like to take the first set, or maybe second if someone else has a pressing need also.

On strategy, the most critical thing this game will be maintaining tech pace, which is best done from the right combination of empire management, tech path, tech trades and espionage. If we have a continent of useless warmongers, then probably hitting someone fast with axes, then cleaning up the rest with fast musketmen will be a good way to prepare for the late game. However, if we have a good techer on our continent, then setting up to gift them a chain of cities in the early mid-game leading to our capital could well be extremely effective. As always, scouting will be key
 
On strategy, the most critical thing this game will be maintaining tech pace, which is best done from the right combination of empire management, war, tech path, war, tech trades, war and espionage.

fixed.
In this game, we have no excuse to delay warfare. We want gold, then war is a must to propel ourselves.

=======================

Checking in.
Rather busy too.
But around early October, I have plenty of time for 2 weeks.

========================

Spoiler :


For some reason, I'm tempted to move that warrior 1N rather than 1SW on that GH for a particular reason: that unforested hill north; a plain one that might contain gold.
 
I agree that researching to future tech #1 seems to be the most limiting aspect of the 10 conditions, so we definitely want to maximize research.

From what we can see of the initial land, I'm not confident at all of getting a good Oracle slingshot. I think we might want to go for the great lighthouse instead of aggressively trying for an Oracle slingshot. We can still go for the Oracle perhaps if it makes sense, but I doubt we can get Civil Service or Education with it without some nice gold or gems very close to us.

I'm okay with moving the warrior 1N.

Currently my best guess at settling would be settler 1NW (and settle) and 2nd city where the warrior is now to share the corn and build the great lighthouse for us. I like settling in towards the river so we can have a strong bureaucratic capital with lots of river cottages.

I made test game, but I haven't played with it. My fog gazing suggests that there might be floodplains on the tiles next to the southern part of the river. Anyone else have an opinion on that?
 

Attachments

  • sgotm16 testing.CivBeyondSwordSave
    43.1 KB · Views: 63
I agree that researching to future tech #1 seems to be the most limiting aspect of the 10 conditions, so we definitely want to maximize research.

From what we can see of the initial land, I'm not confident at all of getting a good Oracle slingshot. I think we might want to go for the great lighthouse instead of aggressively trying for an Oracle slingshot. We can still go for the Oracle perhaps if it makes sense, but I doubt we can get Civil Service or Education with it without some nice gold or gems very close to us.

I made test game, but I haven't played with it.

I've played a few test games, will see if I have any 4000 saves lying around still. Sometimes we had lots of land for REX, rarely did we have a close neighbour (but never trust a mapmaker), sometimes GLH looked good, access to Sushi resources varied a bit. AI Oracle timings were often in the T65-75 range. We'll have to see about resources, land and neighbours before we consider which, if any, wonders make sense. bc noted in IM chat that early wonders do synergize with our Industrious trait and the need for 2+ Legendary cities.
 
I'm okay with moving the warrior 1N.

Currently my best guess at settling would be settler 1NW (and settle) and 2nd city where the warrior is now to share the corn and build the great lighthouse for us. I like settling in towards the river so we can have a strong bureaucratic capital with lots of river cottages.

My usual approach is to consider what the default settling locations might be and to scout with the warrior to uncover things that might change our mind.

If retaining corn is required, and keeping river access (trade routes, fresh water and levee) and maximizing BFC grassland river tiles are desirable, then only SIP and settler 1NW seem have merit. If so, warrior 1SW to the GH makes sense because only that play is likely to uncover tiles that might change our mind. Warrior 1N to uncover the plains hill currently 2N of settler won't help us decide between SIP and settler 1NW, even if it finds gold.
 
Checking in.

I agree with bcool that we need a strong Commerce tile to oracle something big like Civil Service or Education. Oracling Code of Laws might make sense for early Caste System. A better Great Wonder for researching/bulbing deeply into the Technology Tree is The Great Library plus we should get National Epic early too.

The Great Lighthouse is always a good Great Wonder to get as well.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Here's another test game - no attempt to mimic the terrain, but it's at least plausible
 

Attachments

  • mabraham test game 1.CivBeyondSwordSave
    59.3 KB · Views: 62
My fog gazing suggests that there might be floodplains on the tiles next to the southern part of the river. Anyone else have an opinion on that?

Plausible, but I've found that kind of thing misleading before. Not sure how the river graphic and the FP graphic combine. Things will be clearer with the real save in a week, of course.
 
Re @bcool

About wonders I'm not entirely bought on constructing GLH and the only factor that pushes me on that option is the industrious trait. Only that.
True, we are on a hemisphere map which allows very good trade routes once Astro is teched and reached contact with the other hemisphere, but by that time, we'll get almost near Corps. Unless we target an early invasion of the other hemi (which is dubious for the early tech rate and uses of GPeople), astro will come around the time of Economics (which we want dearly for easy free GMerchant and future Sid's Sushi founder), which means next to Corp tech, which annihilates the power of GLH along oversea boosted trade routes.

As regards early game boost and self-sustained cities, that is a problem because we don't even know yet how many good cities can be squeezed by coast and forcibly settling a coast city mid quality for the wonder sake while other good settlements are waiting is a weak move to me.

GLH is a wonder which we'll ponder once the surroundings are uncovered.
Nonetheless, given the wonder interval of life for building it before losing it is erratic, then we might go for it once cities and early REX is done. Good and fast developments (and more improved tiles worked) are to me stronger than a wonder which will slow down the empire development. GLH is strong on islands maps and archipelago not only because of 100% modifer, but because the high number of water tiles limit the empire development and possibility to compete the AI with a large margin...which forces the human to take external to tile bonuses like GLH.

Anyways, not bought with GLH.

About Oracle, who said big techs has to be option. MC is a fine choice (industrious) and overcome the cost into religious techs and cheaper oracle. I do understand the choice of CS and Education for a tech boost, but sometimes some mid-techs have bonuses that cannot be put into calculus. Like CoL and Caste System allows easy border pop to a non-creative civ (of course non applied here with Louis).
 
I'm still not sure why the 1NW preference except for those two reasons:
*Preserve that grass tile 1W
*Gamble half of uncovered plain tiles in original SIP BFC (2N or warrior or 2N1W)

In fact, going 1W means more riverside tiles than 1NW.
The only risk is to see along that additional plain forest a FPH and another so-so cottage tile.

Oh, true I forgot 1NW means a larger gamble on grabbing additional high output resource than 1W.

=======================

bc noted in IM chat that early wonders do synergize with our Industrious trait and the need for 2+ Legendary cities.

True, true. I forgot that aspect of forming two LC's. Still the city that may welcome GLH could be a city with few means to produce more wonders.
RULE #1 for that game in rising LCs: Culture slider is never and never touch. Science or gold.

I'm really wondering about Oracle:
Going for a fast writing (creative) after religious path and it synergizes with CoL for more GScientists. Given the low cost of libraries, all high food city should get its own library.

But the wonder we need at all cost! is the Mids along HG and forges. Don't forget we have to ensure ourselve that GEngineer fast. No gambling at 40-60% where the RNG screws the whole game. Sushi doesn't survive well (at least in a technological leap sense) without its alter ego mining.

Once LC will be likely the city that welcomes Mids+HG and perhaps Hagia Sophia.
 
Having looked at the image more closely, there is definitely a floodplain 2W1S of the settler - the dark green on the western side of the river looks definitive to me.

Also note the change in forest type just south of our settler. Unless it's been edited, that might indicate that we are in a northern latitude, and so perhaps want to bias towards settling further south.

I'm still not sure why the 1NW preference except for those two reasons:
*Preserve that grass tile 1W
*Gamble half of uncovered plain tiles in original SIP BFC (2N or warrior or 2N1W)

In fact, going 1W means more riverside tiles than 1NW.
The only risk is to see along that additional plain forest a FPH and another so-so cottage tile.

Oh, true I forgot 1NW means a larger gamble on grabbing additional high output resource than 1W.

Hmmm there's a lot of competing effects here. If our capital doesn't have another food resource, then dry corn + FPfarm (perhaps with the corn shared a bit with the fish city) is pretty underwhelming. If so, we probably will do little whipping in the capital and will beeline cottages, using plains cottages to throttle growth at the happiness limit. Early on, our happiness cap might be 5, so in the capital that's FP farm and four river plains cottages, producing 5:hammers: and 10:commerce: per turn from tiles, before they grow to hamlets. As the happiness limit grows, we add in more grassland cottages easily. Not wanting to whip saves needing to get a granary in the short term, too. We give the corn and fish to some coastal city, who can do a good job of whip-based REX, or REX plus some wonder(s) of our choice from the overflow. This sets up for a good bureaucratic capital (academy from scientists from the third city).

From this point of view, an initial settler move 1W is superior to 1NW because it makes more river tiles available in the long term, losing only the chance that the deep tiles accessed by 1NW are good ones.

Frankly, the Hemispheres maps I've seen so far have been quite food poor, so slavery might just not be very good. That turn of revolt takes a turn off the victory, more or less... However, organizing this coastal city that *does* have two food resources might be just the thing we want to drive our REX.

=======================



True, true. I forgot that aspect of forming two LC's. Still the city that may welcome GLH could be a city with few means to produce more wonders.
RULE #1 for that game in rising LCs: Culture slider is never and never touch. Science or gold.

I'm really wondering about Oracle:
Going for a fast writing (creative) after religious path and it synergizes with CoL for more GScientists. Given the low cost of libraries, all high food city should get its own library.

I'm quite skeptical about having enough food for this kind of conventional approach to the game. On a food-poor map, I think cottages win out over both specialists and whipping.

But the wonder we need at all cost! is the Mids along HG and forges. Don't forget we have to ensure ourselve that GEngineer fast. No gambling at 40-60% where the RNG screws the whole game. Sushi doesn't survive well (at least in a technological leap sense) without its alter ego mining.

Once LC will be likely the city that welcomes Mids+HG and perhaps Hagia Sophia.

Meh. If we go for a strategy that will pop lots of great people, then yes, we have to work hard at our GEng (and probably beeline Economics for its GM). However, if we're not pushing hard for GPeople for bulbing, then our capital can build a forge and run an engineer and that will probably pop in time (but we should crunch the numbers when we're at this kind of decision point - how many GSci will a NE+GLib pop before a single engineer will pop a GEng? Probably too many). If we're not building GLib, then there's no need to build other wonders just to get the GEng at 500AD 80 turns early...

If we do look at GLib, then chopping Pyramids in our capital becomes more attractive - for Rep (mostly for happiness), for the GEng, for the option of Police State, and for the option to use early Universal Suffrage. Building a decent wonder without the resource is probably better than settling poor land or waging an early war against an AI capital 20+ tiles away... Seriously - there's lots of room on these Hemisphere maps.
 
I have played a few test games and have attached one of the test saves that I worldbuilt to match our start.

I made the following observations:
  • There will probably be a vast amount of land between the AI and our capitol.
  • There may only be two AIs on our hemisphere.
  • The AI tech rate is fairly slow.
  • It will be easy crash the economy!

The decathlon requirements can be prioritized by the stage of the game. I will separate them into "high" and "low" priority for the early, middle and late game.

Early Game Decathlon

High priority:
  • Steal tech. It has to be IW. This will be much easier that stealing Astro or physics as the AI will naturally tech it before us and it won't cost much to steal.
  • Own two legendary cities. As bcool pointed out, early wonders help tremendously with LC culture.

Low priority:
  • Own three Holy Shrines. Hopefully, we will only have to build one of these, but may need to build two. We need to have a GP come at some time, but we should have plenty of time. We want to delay killing our neighbors until they have had time to build a shrine.
  • Three corporate headquarters. It is never to soon to plan for that GE. The others will come easily.
  • Blazing We made 100 turns in about 2 1/2 months, and we expected a short game on SGOTM 15. Should not be a problem.

Mid-Game Decathlon:

High Priority:
  • Eliminate one AI. This is a borderline Early-Mid game need. I think the map will dictate that this will not be an early game goal. We want to make sure we have a trading partner so we don't create a semi-isolation situation by killing of somebody with axes or HAs. Let's not stop at one AI and take our whole continent.
  • Three Holy Shrines Make sure enough religions are founded on our continent. We definitely don't want to have to research Divine Right!

Low Priority:
  • 2 LCs. This should not take much of an active commitment. More wonders. Sistine??? Better to capture than build.
  • 3 Corporate Headquarters. Still working on the GE. Do we want to chance losing the Economics race? Possibly run a number of Merchant specialists.

Late-Game Decathlon:

High priority: (all of them obviously!)
Kill Humbaba
UN General Secretary
Future tech
Simultaneous VCs
Global Domination!!!
Third corporate HC
Two LCs
(or three for VC)

General Points

Here are some things I think we need to prioritize:
  • A high commerce bureaucracy capitol.
  • Very early Academy.
  • GLib/NE
  • Scouting. If we have the commerce in our capitol (Fur/Gold/Silver), we need early hunting and 2 scouts.
  • Find and acquire happy resources and stone/marble.
  • Fail gold.
  • Barb protection should be a priority. There will be a lot of fogged land that can spawn barbs.
  • Pyramids are highly desirable, but very costly. If a neighbor has stone, maybe we let him build it, then take the Pyramids and the stone.

I don't like TGL unless we get a snaky hemisphere. I have seen this on my test maps.
 

Attachments

  • Decathlon Test Game shulec BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    116.5 KB · Views: 52
Kaitzilla checking in!

Nice to see you all again :)
Hope the long wait for SGOTM16 didn't drive you too bonkers.



I agree that this looks to be mainly a tech race game. Lots of wild cards floating around to complicate things of course.



Cottages seem nice but all the tiles look brown. Bulb economy looks nice but we need lots of GP for shrines/corps/legendary cities etc.

Sea economy and trade routes is questionable since we are not Financial and most of our trading partners will be across the ocean. Hmmm.
 
Here's another test game with better land for matching the start.

I like shulec's thoughts and organization.

Kaitzilla makes a good point about Great People. We'll need three for our corps and maybe one or two for shrines, and some of those can be quite late and/or available from getting techs first. An early economy with a significant specialist component makes this more awkward. In any case, supporting (say) a pair of scientists early will require two tiles that produce 4 extra :food: between them. So far, my map experience suggests this might not happen too regularly.
 

Attachments

  • mabraham test game 2.CivBeyondSwordSave
    38 KB · Views: 59
I had a play with shulec's test game. Attached is a version that fixes some plains-vs-grassland issues, and makes the river more realistic.

Some lessons:
  • barbs started invading around T75, so the fog-busting screen or real defence needs to be up by about then, if appropriate.
  • capital pops its borders T5,T25 and T90-100 depending when you get library/academy.
  • only SH and TGW had gone by T77 when I stopped
 

Attachments

  • Decathlon Test Game shulec BC-4000 mabraham modified.CivBeyondSwordSave
    116.8 KB · Views: 68
I see this game as a corporate space race game. So I think a cottaged capital is in order, but I think we can get away with farms for the other cities. And then a race to get corporations (mining inc and sushi). This is how I've gotten my best space game dates.

An early AP and Univ of S. with temples and monasteries of a state religion goes a long way to maintaining tech pace even without a lot of cottages. And we have to build the AP likely anyways. At least I'd rather build the AP rather than the United Nations.

We can get biology by 1100 AD probably and then sushi maybe 1250AD (even if it isn't that great on the map) and then we can likely get all the specialists we need with a bit of planning. In the space race sgotm with the fallout we were able to get some late priests. It would be useful to get an early holy city so we can run a lot of priest specialists in a city.

Even if the GLH goes obsolete by 1250 AD (when we get corporations) I think in a long term game with intercontinental trade routes it is going to be well worth the cost.

I'll try to have a go at a full test game to get a sense of what mabraham has been suggesting about the hemisphere map type lacking a lot of food.
 
The Great Lighthouse provides two extra trade routes per coastal city. Even if the trade routes it adds are small, it may still be worthwhile, since it will take a long time to complete Corporation which itself provides an extra trade route mitigating the effects of TGL obsoleting.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
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