While that by itself is true, I rather not generate a GSpy if not really necessary. We'll have to generate an awful lot of great people without being PHI, so I'd rather reserve the first slot for a GS/academy and keep our pool clean from spy points.
SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
While that by itself is true, I rather not generate a GSpy if not really necessary. We'll have to generate an awful lot of great people without being PHI, so I'd rather reserve the first slot for a GS/academy and keep our pool clean from spy points.
Fine by me. GS is always useful. If not for the academy (though I really hope we'll find a nice science city) then definitely for bulbing Philo.
One thing I would also like to see us do is to build the Mausoleum of Mausollos. I tend to neglect building this wonder even though it's extremely strong, especially in a long game. My estimation is that we are going to run at least 4 Golden ages (Taj+1+2+3GPs), which means MoM will give us a total of 16 extra turns of GA!!!
One thing I would also like to see us do is to build the Mausoleum of Mausollos. I tend to neglect building this wonder even though it's extremely strong, especially in a long game. My estimation is that we are going to run at least 4 Golden ages (Taj+1+2+3GPs), which means MoM will give us a total of 16 extra turns of GA!!!
I'm against building the GW as well. We don't need that many Espionage Points to grab IW.
Just focus our EP-spending on the closest AI the moment we meet him, make sure we have a trade route to that city and get a spy to 50% discount and we should be able to grab IW for ~150EP (if IW is 200beakers, which I'm not sure of, but the online civilopedia says it is. I'm not sure whether the value is for normal speed/standard map). Even with only Palace EP, that's less then 40t. That shouldn't be too much of a problem. If we really want to grab it faster we can Oracle CoL get a CH up and run a spy.
Just focus our EP-spending on the closest AI the moment we meet him, make sure we have a trade route to that city and get a spy to 50% discount and we should be able to grab IW for ~150EP (if IW is 200beakers, which I'm not sure of, but the online civilopedia says it is. I'm not sure whether the value is for normal speed/standard map). Even with only Palace EP, that's less then 40t. That shouldn't be too much of a problem. If we really want to grab it faster we can Oracle CoL get a CH up and run a spy.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
I want to get the starting moves clear so I can do them as soon as the live-save is posted on the 21st.
So I propose for the opening of my turnset:
So this leaves to fill in the options for warrior and settler. What do we need to reveal to make us change our mind re settler moves? Going warrior 1N or 1NE will most likely not make us settle on the corn or further. That leaves warrior 1SW as the move that will reveal thing that might change our mind on the settler move...
- SIP is not stellar, but could be the best we get. Mapmakers rarely make a blind gamble pay off, so teams that settle in place will not be penalised too much
- We can afford to loose 1 (maybe 2 turns) to scout given its going to be a long game on normal speed
So I propose for the opening of my turnset:
- 1 scouting move with warrior: 1NE, or 1N, or 1SW: posting screenshot & save afterwards, giving 1 day for discussion, then
- 1 scouting move with settler, 1NW, or 1W, giving us the option to settle in the new spot (keeping the rivers) on turn1, or go back to SIP(starting location) and still settle on turn 1. A move 2N(via 1NE) will definitely loose us 2 turns unless the gamble pays off. Posting screenshot & save afterwards, discussing again
So this leaves to fill in the options for warrior and settler. What do we need to reveal to make us change our mind re settler moves? Going warrior 1N or 1NE will most likely not make us settle on the corn or further. That leaves warrior 1SW as the move that will reveal thing that might change our mind on the settler move...
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
I sound paradoxical, but the best way to generate great Persons is to use some to run a Golden Age. GPP are doubled during a golden age, allowing you to time multiple in your empire in multiple cities (needs careful planning through, but we've pulled it off in one of our previous SGOTM's)
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
SH(we already are creative, and it would make the AI be quicker to Oracle)GW(we do not want the GSpy points dilution)- Oracle (which tech?)
- Pyramids (only if we have stone? Rep is powerful!)
- GLH (depending on amount of coast? Hemisphere usually has enough, but do we have the early hammers to spare in a coastal city?)
- MoM (for longer Golden Ages)
- Sistine Chapel (a must for legendary cities)
- Taj Mahal (for Golden Age)
- ...
More to come, please add/comment as time goes on
I had a shot at a test map, find attached below.
I basically wanted to do a simple run to steal IW. I simply put EP on the first AI I met, went straight alpha and could easily steal it at T89. At this point I had 316 EPs against Roos, which was more than enough. Obviously the discounts are important, but waiting for stationary and getting a TR shouldn't be too complicated. In an actual game the city we steal from may be further, but still it shouldn't pose much of a problem.
I basically wanted to do a simple run to steal IW. I simply put EP on the first AI I met, went straight alpha and could easily steal it at T89. At this point I had 316 EPs against Roos, which was more than enough. Obviously the discounts are important, but waiting for stationary and getting a TR shouldn't be too complicated. In an actual game the city we steal from may be further, but still it shouldn't pose much of a problem.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
Good news. Do we want to have a back-up spy present in case the mission fails, or do we wait and see, and invest those hammers only after the missions has failed. This has the downside of waiting a couple of more turns (building spy, walking there, being stationary)
I actually sent two spies and the first one got caught the turn after it entered american territory, so yeah, a backup spy is a good idea. If none gets caught we can always try to steal a second small tech like masonry, myst or sailing or whatever.
Regarding first moves.
If our prime fog-gazers with the real save determine with reasonable certainty that the tile 2N of the settler is a PH indeed, I wouldn't move the warrior 1N, but 1NE (rather than 1SW for reasons discussed earlier). If we're not sure about the PH I'd be prepared to move 1N to determine that.
After that we'll discuss of course, but if indeed it's a PH on a river settler could move there too...
If our prime fog-gazers with the real save determine with reasonable certainty that the tile 2N of the settler is a PH indeed, I wouldn't move the warrior 1N, but 1NE (rather than 1SW for reasons discussed earlier). If we're not sure about the PH I'd be prepared to move 1N to determine that.
After that we'll discuss of course, but if indeed it's a PH on a river settler could move there too...
Regarding wonders.
Indeed no to SH and GW. Mids and Oracle would be first priorities. Not sure what to take from Oracle yet, will really depend on how the game evolves. CoL is an option as always, but MC might be better for IND forges. But maybe currency too (if we go for early-ish alpha for spies definitely a reasonable option).
GLH is map dependent, maybe, maybe not.
Besides the other wonders mentioned, definitely the parthenon and GLib. Parthenon will be pretty important I think. At least my thinking right now would be to have two cities that build wonders, likely Paris and another production city. These are candidates obviously to become legendary. Then ideally we have a GPFarm as well. So basically we'll have 3 cities that produce great people. The GPFarm (from a certain point onward) could produce mainly artists for bombing a 3rd city to legendary (presumably the GPFarm itself), while the other 2 cities produce all other types of great people we need. We need those for the regular stuff like academies, bulbs and GAs, but of course also for the corps we'll have to found. By the way, I guess this game we should concentrate a bit extra on those techs that give great people (music, economics, physics), anything we can get for free will be critically important.
Of the not very obvious wonders I'd like to mention Angkor Wat. It gives 3 priest slots and we might want to produce a GPr for a shrine (confu/tao) at some point.
If we have stone, probably Hanging Gardens is also worth it.
Indeed no to SH and GW. Mids and Oracle would be first priorities. Not sure what to take from Oracle yet, will really depend on how the game evolves. CoL is an option as always, but MC might be better for IND forges. But maybe currency too (if we go for early-ish alpha for spies definitely a reasonable option).
GLH is map dependent, maybe, maybe not.
Besides the other wonders mentioned, definitely the parthenon and GLib. Parthenon will be pretty important I think. At least my thinking right now would be to have two cities that build wonders, likely Paris and another production city. These are candidates obviously to become legendary. Then ideally we have a GPFarm as well. So basically we'll have 3 cities that produce great people. The GPFarm (from a certain point onward) could produce mainly artists for bombing a 3rd city to legendary (presumably the GPFarm itself), while the other 2 cities produce all other types of great people we need. We need those for the regular stuff like academies, bulbs and GAs, but of course also for the corps we'll have to found. By the way, I guess this game we should concentrate a bit extra on those techs that give great people (music, economics, physics), anything we can get for free will be critically important.
Of the not very obvious wonders I'd like to mention Angkor Wat. It gives 3 priest slots and we might want to produce a GPr for a shrine (confu/tao) at some point.
If we have stone, probably Hanging Gardens is also worth it.
Yes, but if you're going to burn 3 GP's for a GA, you'll be hard pressed to come out ahead, MoM or not. 2 is pretty hard, considering that the cost for the ones after the GA will be that much higher as well.
So, I'll agree that burning 1 GP, to get some extra GP's out of a GA can be worth is, but more that that will be dicey at best.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
Let's also not forget the national wonders. This is a long game, so Oxford University is a must, and maybe also Iron Works, Maoi, Heroic & National Epic etc. With a max of 2 per city we need to plan.
I actually sent two spies and the first one got caught the turn after it entered american territory, so yeah, a backup spy is a good idea. If none gets caught we can always try to steal a second small tech like masonry, myst or sailing or whatever.
I agree, and they can go scouting as well if we're out of EP.
I also doubt whether we'll run a GA from burning 3 GPs, but it might come about late game if we pop a GPr we don't need anymore and have the GSpy from communism at hand for instance. Or we have a set of great people, but really want a GE for Mining Inc and try to get one from our IW city... Don't know, it'll depend, but in general terms I do think MoM is indeed quite worth it, which I think was Ororo's main message. (even with only 2 GAs; it's like having 3 then (24 turns instead of 16), so basically MoM is already worth one GA, for less hammers than Taj
).We already climbed to 2nd place on the spam count ladder, behind the unreachable (in that regard) Phoenixes! Keep up the good work people!Already falling behind in spam count as usual. So let's make something about it.
Seriously, I'm quite happy to see this initial enthusiasm.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
We already climbed to 2nd place on the spam count ladder, behind the unreachable (in that regard) Phoenixes! Keep up the good work people!
Seriously, I'm quite happy to see this initial enthusiasm.
Yep, back to work now... I've been procrastinating too long
