SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks

[Sengir]

I want to get the starting moves clear so I can do them as soon as the live-save is posted on the 21st.

• SIP is not stellar, but could be the best we get. Mapmakers rarely make a blind gamble pay off, so teams that settle in place will not be penalised too much
• We can afford to loose 1 (maybe 2 turns) to scout given its going to be a long game on normal speed

So I propose for the opening of my turnset:

• 1 scouting move with warrior: 1NE, or 1N, or 1SW: posting screenshot & save afterwards, giving 1 day for discussion, then
• 1 scouting move with settler, 1NW, or 1W, giving us the option to settle in the new spot (keeping the rivers) on turn1, or go back to SIP(starting location) and still settle on turn 1. A move 2N(via 1NE) will definitely loose us 2 turns unless the gamble pays off. Posting screenshot & save afterwards, discussing again

So this leaves to fill in the options for warrior and settler. What do we need to reveal to make us change our mind re settler moves? Going warrior 1N or 1NE will most likely not make us settle on the corn or further. That leaves warrior 1SW as the move that will reveal thing that might change our mind on the settler move...

Missed this post:
I'm in favor of moving the warrior 1NE. I don't think there is a lot in the South that might us change our mind, but in the north there are several options that wouldn't delay settling more then 1 turn. 1N might be worth it to determine whether there is gold on that hill...

The Settler: that's something we can decide only when we have moved the warrior IMHO

 

[Ororo]

EDIT: X-post with Sengir

Let's also not forget the national wonders. This is a long game, so Oxford University is a must, and maybe also Iron Works, Maoi, Heroic & National Epic etc. With a max of 2 per city we need to plan.

+ Globe Theater. We get cheap theatres and IND bonus for wonders, which makes Louis by far the best leader to build the Globe Theater

I also doubt whether we'll run a GA from burning 3 GPs, but it might come about late game if we pop a GPr we don't need anymore and have the GSpy from communism at hand for instance. Or we have a set of great people, but really want a GE for Mining Inc and try to get one from our IW city... Don't know, it'll depend, but in general terms I do think MoM is indeed quite worth it, which I think was Ororo's main message. (even with only 2 GAs; it's like having 3 then (24 turns instead of 16), so basically MoM is already worth one GA, for less hammers than Taj ).

I still think we should go for the 2GPs golden age as well. Don't tell me we can't farm 2GPs in 12 turns of GA! All you have to do is starve your high pop cities a little bit. Plus, late in the game, when we have 3 corps, 3 shrines and scientists can only bulb like 1/3 or 1/4 of the tech what are we going to use our GPs for? We might as well launch the last golden age...
You're worried about the Culture? 7 cathedrals in our legendaries, hermitage, late game culture wonders, broadcast towers from Eiffel Tower, the OP Sid's Sushi and culture slider (which we'll need to raise for Domination as well) should take care of that.

We already climbed to 2nd place on the spam count ladder, behind the unreachable (in that regard) Phoenixes! Keep up the good work people!

Seriously, I'm quite happy to see this initial enthusiasm.

I'm really glad too Silver for spam would be just as good as silver for the actual game

 

[Sengir]

I still think we should go for the 2GPs golden age as well. Don't tell me we can't farm 2GPs in 12 turns of GA! All you have to do is starve your high pop cities a little bit. Plus, late in the game, when we have 3 corps, 3 shrines and scientists can only bulb like 1/3 or 1/4 of the tech what are we going to use our GPs for? We might as well launch the last golden age...
You're worried about the Culture? 7 cathedrals in our legendaries, hermitage, late game culture wonders, broadcast towers from Eiffel Tower, the OP Sid's Sushi and culture slider (which we'll need to raise for Domination as well) should take care of that.

It's not that we can't farm them in the timeframe, it's just that it'll delay the GP's after it more. Still, with MoM, a 2GP-GA is likely to come out at least equal, meaning that if we can switch 2 unwanted GP's for 2 wanted GP's, I'm in favor (and that's discounting all the other benefits of a GA). Heck, if it comes down to it, in the endgame I'll probably by more then happy to burn any number of GP's to get a GA to finish the game faster

 

[Ororo]

Missed this post:
I'm in favor of moving the warrior 1NE. I don't think there is a lot in the South that might us change our mind, but in the north there are several options that wouldn't delay settling more then 1 turn. 1N might be worth it to determine whether there is gold on that hill...

The Settler: that's something we can decide only when we have moved the warrior IMHO

It's a really tough choice between 1NE and 1N, isn't it?

Maybe sending warrior 1NE....and if he finds any hidden resources/surroundings of the fish+corn spot look good, sending settler 1NE to check whether we are moving away from gold or something...

 

[nocho]

I think we quite agree Ororo, a 2GP GA is likely, a 3GP one a bit less, but still possible. And no, I'm not really worried about culture (7 cathedrals may be a long shot though...). At most I'm worried about producing the right GPs for the corps, but indeed, if we pop a lot of wrong ones a 3GP GA is all the more likely. I was only saying that with even only 2 GAs MoM is already worth it.

 

[Sengir]

It's a really tough choice between 1NE and 1N, isn't it?

Maybe sending warrior 1NE....and if he finds any hidden resources/surroundings of the fish+corn spot look good, sending settler 1NE to check whether we are moving away from gold or something...

And if the warrior finds nothing, send the settler 1NW, so that we can see what's on the hill anyway. I think that might get my vote (but given the fact that playing is still some days away, I won't garantee I won't change my vote beforehand

Anyway, gut feeling says that we should be weary of the hill

 

[pigswill]

Regardless of how long the game lasts a lost turn can't be replaced. Having said that if our fog-gazers are pretty confident that we have FPs to the west then settler IW and warrior NW>NW would be worth doing.

edit: are FPs floodplains or forested plains? If forested then save a turn and SIP.

 

[nocho]

Like Sengir I may well change my vote over the next few days but maybe I prefer warrior 1N after all. We can't trust the mapmaker, but supposedly it's not a highly altered map, so from what we deduce from the BFC there could or should well be at least some hidden resources. Something shiny on that hill 2N of settler could well be possible and if it were the case, pigswill has extra reason for SIP on T0. Note there's really a lot of forest and a FP (=floodplain, PF=plain forest) which likely are resourceless (but for a forested deer or fur), so that makes something on the hill more likely. I think it's important to know that asap. The warrior after 1N could go 1NE to get a good few of the sea. For general scouting purposes NE-N isn't really going to be much more useful than N-NE and the latter will tell us about the hill. First NE is only useful if there'd be a ton of seafood and we'd consider settling there, but I don't think that's very likely. And if it were the case that still would make a good GPFarm.

 

[Sengir]

Deer and Fur aren't likely, this close to FP/desert, making other resources all the more likely. Still there are more bare tiles, which could have strategic resources on them.

Just for a complete reference, what would the warrior reveal if moved 1NW?

 

[Ororo]

Plains hill and the tile 1W of Corn = inferior to moving 1N, which reveals an extra tile...

 

[Sengir]

Ok, thanks. @pigswill, I had forgotten about the FP, SIP might be worth it after all.

Lemme see:
Warrior 1NE > Why would we do that? Reveals more coastal tiles. Personally I'm not in favor of settling a coastal capital site unless starting with fishing, as it means a lot of tiles will be useless from the start.
Warrior 1N > Reveals PH. If it has a resource, SIP is promoted to good, if not, what then? Still SIP or move? Where?
Warrior 1SW > Again, reveals mostly coastal tiles, which I'm not too big a fan of.

So yeah, it didn't take me quite so long to change my mind. 1N might be better after all, but I'm not too sure about the follow-up from the settler.

Even if there's something on the hill, there's the possibility to move the settler and settle on turn 1 (might end up SIP anyway if we don't find anything). If we do that (move the settle that is), we should consider the possible second warrior moves as well, before deciding the first...

So my questions:
1) If the warrior finds something on the hill, what do we do with the settler?
2) If the warrior finds nothing on the hill, what do we do with the settler?

 

[Ororo]

You've been asking for it

 

[nocho]

1) If the warrior finds something on the hill, what do we do with the settler?
2) If the warrior finds nothing on the hill, what do we do with the settler?

1) Depends on what we find. Could be gold or silver, but even something like a PH sheep. Of course also depends whether warrior finds something on the tile 1E of corn. Likely nothing there, but you never know. In any case, supposing that 1E tile of corn yields nothing, a settler move 1NW wouldn't lose any of the interesting tiles (corn, 2N, FP) but maybe for the GH. It'd be a bit of a gamble that may pay off, but at worst would only lose us a turn. And maybe a hill. Speaking of which, where would the 3rd hill be if this is a standard start?

2) Either SIP or move onto that hill... (or NW ) I actually want to see that hill on T0 to at least warrant a move on that hill in case it's resourceless.

 

[Ororo]

Xpost with nocho

So my questions:
1) If the warrior finds something on the hill, what do we do with the settler?
2) If the warrior finds nothing on the hill, what do we do with the settler?

I would probably move regardless (1W/1NW still grabs the Corn and plains hill) and fogbust the rest of our potential BFC...

 

[Ororo]

Speaking of which, where would the 3rd hill be if this is a standard start?

I have no idea. Small possibility is a tile 2S1W of Settler but not too likely. The rest looks like a flatland.

 

[Sengir]

Yeah, that makes sense. The only thing we lose by moving west is something we can easily pick up with fish city.

Ok, I'm changing my vote to 1N for the warrior.

 

[Ororo]

OK. Coastal capital means we would have to move our palace to a cottage spot eventually, which too speaks in favour of warrior 1N.

Therefore I vote for 1N as well...

 

[Sengir]

Speaking of which, where would the 3rd hill be if this is a standard start?

I can't find it either, but I also can't find the post with all the information regarding start equalisation, so it might just be me

 

[Sengir]

In other news:
DwarfSleepy: Would you be so kind to post screenshots of the Demographic, Setting and Victory screens on turn 0; and another screenshot of the Demographic screen on turn 1?

 

[astre]

there si also an information that we don't have: do the game propose a settling place to the settler?
It usualy make decent settling places including some idden recources...

BTW, I'm alright for any move for the warior: NE, N or SW.
north seem better to move the settler anyway.