SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Grifftavian · Sep 26, 2012

Ronnie1 said:
...What do we want to try and take from the Oracle, or would we rather just REX ASAP?

That is a good question! I think there is a pretty good chance that all the AI Capitols may have been founded already in the starting save by our evil mapmaker friend. And since we wandered around for two turns before founding Paris, there is a good chance we are already behind in the race to get The Oracle. With no Marble in site so far, should we go Bronze Working > beeline Priesthood? If we had a few pre-chopped forests waiting, that would improve our odds of getting The Oracle without access to Marble.

As for what we want to try and take from The Oracle, there are the usual suspects: Code of Laws or Civil Service. But since we have a Decathlon Goal of being AP Resident or UN SecGen, maybe we should consider trying for Theology from The Oracle. That would mean we would need to pick up Masonry & Monotheism while we are building The Oracle, and also means our beeline to Priesthood should take the long road via Polytheism. That's a lot to research without any Libraries, so maybe we need to plug in Pottery & Writing as well.

:aargh:

Brain overload!

File all that under future planning. The questions remains what do we research next, now that we have Mining?

adrianj · Sep 26, 2012

I quite like Timmy's idea to put an early cottage on the floodplain. If we explore this a bit further:

1) Are we willing to give up 1 :food:

for the cottage?
Best production tiles around our capital are the hills/mines. There are 3 plains hills and 1 grass hill for a total cost of 7 :food:

to work them all. Corn + city tile + floodplain cottage only produce a surplus of 6 :food:

. So in this scenario, the floodplain cottage costs us the opportunity to sustainably work all of our mines.
(Note, the food situation gets worse if we want to work the silk forest, which isn't such a bad early tile)

2) Couldn't we just add a grassland farm later on (happiness allowing) to work the grass mine that way?
Sure, but if we're cottaging the floodplain only to farm a grass tile, there's not really any difference.

3) Assuming we do choose to cottage the FP - do we need Pottery before BW in order to do that most efficiently?
This depends on our worker priorities. The first thing worker does is farm the corn (part build a road along the way). Does a farm build take 5 turns? The earliest the worker might be ready to improve the FP is T25 (now T10+7 to build worker + 1 move/part road + 5 farm + 1 move/part road + 1 move). So if improving the FP is to happen this early, the Pottery/BW decision is relevant.

4) Do we want a commerce tile this early on?
This early in the game, I'd be more interested in improving :food:

and

tiles rather than :commerce:

. The reason being that food and production seem so much more useful during the expansion phase and they kind of accelerate everything else.
So, if we HAD gone Pottery first I'd suggest we build mines and not the FP cottage straight away anyway... which therefore suggests to me that maybe we shouldn't have gone Pottery first...

To summarise: My opinion is that food and production are more important in the early game. I think a farm on the floodplain is more valuable than a cottage as it allows us to sustainably work all of our mines.
It follows that my preference for next tech is BW.

adrianj · Sep 26, 2012

Oracle:

As you point out Griff, we are starting two turns behind the AI. We also don't have great :commerce:

in our capital. So shooting too high for the Oracle might be a mistake. I would rule out Civil Service.

I think Metal Casting could be a good choice for us. We are industrious, so we can build forges for cheap. If we find gold, gems or silver nearby this would be even more valuable. If we meet some AI it becomes even better as it is a high value tech to trade out. On the other hand, if we are isolated it boosts us on the path toward Optics. It's also super easy to get, requiring only Myst -> Medi (or Poly) -> PH -> Pottery.

My next choice would be Code of Laws. Founding a religion is nice, and helps us toward one of the victory conditions. (less reliant on AI building 4 shrines for us). Tech cost is only slightly more than MC, requiring Writing, which should be a high priority for us anyway since we can build cheap libraries.

Oracle decision might be important this early if it influences our worker priorities, eg, we want more commerce and do in fact want to cottage the floodplain for example. My opinion is to not try to tech too far and make do with a low commerce opening.

Ozbenno · Sep 26, 2012

If we are shooting for Oracle, I like the idea of Theology rather that Code of Laws or Metal Casing, gets us a religion and the AP, plenty of Priest points for a shrine and culture, culture, culture...

Ronnie1 · Sep 27, 2012

If I were to combine what has been summarized so far.....

Aj believes food and hammers rule early on and I do not disagree, so BW next makes sense.

I too like Theology from Oracle for the reasons stated by Oz. So Myst > Poly > Priest > Mono are required to take Theology IIRC.

Pre-chopping will probably be needed, our Industrious trait does give us a bonus on Wonder hammers so that is great also.

What have I missed?

Ozbenno · Sep 27, 2012

Ronnie1 said:
I too like Theology from Oracle for the reasons stated by Oz. So Myst > Poly > Priest > Mono are required to take Theology IIRC.

Add Writing and maybe replace Polytheism with Meditation (unless we want to head straight towards Great Library and/or Partnenon)...

timmy827 · Sep 27, 2012

adrianj - Nice post. Yes I agree that most of the time food and hammers over commerce. However I have a few counter points:

1. In the very early game, we may not be able to work all 4 mines anyways due to happy cap (need size 6 to do corn, farmed FP, and the 4 mines). Maybe we find an early happy resource, maybe we don't, but something to keep in mind.

2. There has been discussion of going the traditional cottage-Bureau capital route. That generally means not working all the mines at breakeven food, but prioritizing grassland cottages and continuing to grow...obviously that depends on how fast we can happiness down the line.

Just wanted to throw those out. I'm fine with the alternative (research BW and have the worker farm FP and mine).

Oracle:
First a specific point to hammer that others have made - Theology in particular takes a fair bit of research to Oracle and we have a low commerce start, especially if we only farm/mine the capital early. We might still make it but I'd worry a lot about the risk.

Ozbenno said:
Add Writing and maybe replace Polytheism with Meditation (unless we want to head straight towards Great Library and/or Partnenon)...

Not quite. Mono requires Poly. So the list to Oracle Theology is
Bronze working (not strictly needed but we are leaning towards it)
Mysticism
Polytheism
Masonry
Monotheism
Preisthood
Writing

Second, I question the view on getting Theology because of the Decathlon goal (AP resident OR UN Secretary General). I personally think that Domination is likely to be one of the win conditions (note we have goals to conquer a neighbor and own 3 holy shrines, I think the shrines will be easier to through conquering than self-founding and getting 3 great prophets). And if we Dominate we will presumably have the population to vote us AP or UN head without having to build the AP ourselves.
So I'm dubious on the value of Oracle-Theology. Would feel more on board with Metal Casting or CoL but is still early to decide, and I may well want to settle cities first instead of wonders. (depending on how map turns out, I'd like to consider idea of Great Lighthouse at the western city instead of Oracle also).

Finally a note on cities - we'll decide later but I think 1S of Griff's white dot would be a fine Great Person farm. I like 1S because the deer isn't that great (4F, moving 1S picks up 2 more FP which can be 4F1C), and it picks up the hill-of-white-dot as well as plains hill shared with the capital.

Grifftavian · Sep 27, 2012

Looks like we have no major objections to proceeding with Bronze Working as the research, so I'll resume my turn set soon and post the results later this afternoon.

Grifftavian · Sep 27, 2012

I've played up through the completion of Bronze Working. Game uploaded to P&R page, or get it here...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Misfit_Gypsy_Nuts_SG016_BC3040_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Hinduism was founded somewhere. Our Worker has completed the Corn Farm.

Warrior 0 has been exploring to the South & Southwest, which is apparently Lion Country. He survived one Lion attack, and has been running for his life ever since. In addition to the 2 Lions you can see, there is a 3rd Lion the moved off into the NW fog. I think somebody jinxed him by mentioning something about the Warrior getting eaten.

Warrior 0 has uncovered another River and a Wine resource, but nothing interesting south of the Wheat. Sadly, no Copper has been revealed with the knowledge of BW. I have put Pottery in for the next Tech to research, but zero :science:

invested.

I did not revolt to the Slavery civic, but that option is available to us now.

News Update: Humbaba is still alive

Here is your Session Turn Log from 3600 BC to 3040 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn Set Autolog, Part 2...

Spoiler :

Grifftavian · Sep 27, 2012

The turn set roster order is....

1) Grifftavian Just Played
2) Ozbenno Up Now
3) timmy827 On Deck
4) Ronnie1
5) Conquistador63
6) Sleepless
7) McArine

Turn Set Player Emeritus & Team Advisor
adrainj

Ronnie1 · Sep 27, 2012

Theology and AP offer more than just the obvious Decathlon goal.

The bonus hammers and the ability to cause havoc through resolution should not be underestimated.

Timmy makes a few great points. The risk of trying for too much. I forgot about Masonry, and Writing, so that is quite a haul in reality. The happy cap issue should be noted also. Without finding anything new, we will be limited to size 5 until we get Monarchy or the Mids.

Sleepless · Sep 27, 2012

Well managed a quick look at the save and my thoughts...

Tech... BW or pottery. Not being a fan of cottages I'd be happier to farm the flood plain but our likely new sites with there flood plains could be cottaged? Negative side of farming flood plains is the added time (7 turns I think?) to farm them where as cottages are only 5. As Paris won't be a big bureau capital (at least till windmills/bio) I would favour BW and chop out our first couple of settlers/workers.

Priesthood/Oracle. I fancy going for the Oracle but probably taking MC. I don't think we are in that much of a hurry this being Emperor so anything pre 1500BC should be very safe. We could always chop into it and gain extra hammers that way?

City Sites. As Timmy927 mentioned white spot looks better 1S. Picks up more flood plains at the cost of tundra deer. Hopefully there is something further North that can use the deer.

red dot. I would place 1SE on the plains hill with creative borders would pop in 5 turns for the wheat so very quickly till its in our borders plus the benefit of instant trade routes with the capital and the extra hammer for the plains hill in the city square. I would probably settle this second and very early.

Been trying to write this for 5 hours and griff has played in the meantime so will try and give some input before I'm away for the weekend.

adrianj · Sep 27, 2012

Out of interest, has anyone loaded up the save with Unit Health Bars turned on? Apparently this can be a way to to estimate the power of the most powerful unit on the map, eg, Humbaba. This trick was used by some SGOTM teams in the Wizard of Oz game. I vaguely recall something about the length of our warrior's health bar.

A very minor thing: Does anyone actually get any use out of the %completed in place of the turn number? Griff's demographics screenshot shows we are 4.80% complete, but what I'd much rather know is the turn number.

I like the idea of getting city #2 out really fast (plains hill as suggested by Sleepless). After warrior build, straight into a settler, chopped? Instant trade route = no extra maintenance cost, and the it would have decent early food (wheat) and production (settled on PH) to really help pump out more workers/warriors/settlers.

Grifftavian · Sep 27, 2012

Loaded up my exit save and turned the Health bars on; see attached screenshots. :scan:

You gotta look real close to see the Health Bars above the units on the second screen shot.

The BUFFY Clock is set to alternate between turns played & percentage by default. Just happened to take the previous screenshots when the alternate clock was showing (if it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all). We are on turn 24 of 500 as shown in these screen shots.

adrianj · Sep 27, 2012

The alternating turn clock is an option in Buffy that can be turned off. Just sayin...

Those health bars sure are tiny! I think it's safe to say Humbaba is one tough cookie, which is pretty much what we were all thinking anyway, right?

Ozbenno · Sep 27, 2012

Got it, will look to play on the weekend. Will do a PPP tomorrow.

Initial thoughts are to mine the plains hill next and go for another warrior and settler after the current warrior. Second warrioir for settler escort and maybe to get us to size 4 for building settler.

Tech? What are we looking for in an Oracle?? If Theo, we should go Writing next (via Priesthood I assume), build a library before Oracle (run some scientists) to speed up the research and get us our Academy asap. If MC then I think we go Pottery next. We could go Pottery -> Writing next even if Theo is our goal as a quicker library means quicker research, would we gain the cost of researching Pottery by having a quicker library???

Ronnie1 · Sep 28, 2012

I would NOT build a 3rd warrior.

I would alternate between the Flood Plain and the Silk so the warrior is completed the same turn we grow to size 3 and then build/chop a settler immediately!

Sleepless · Sep 28, 2012

Obviously more exploring needed but doesn't seem the best of lands. There is a jungle belt so possibly some calender resources there as we already have silk and incense in view. Another possible city site on the wine depending on the area surrounding.

Our exploring warrior I would let the lion attack it and promote woody1 when it wins... Always optomistic but on a forest hill odds of losing are pretty remote.

Paris's borders are due to pop in 3 turns (I think) so we wouldn't need a warrior for escort duty if we settle the plains hill to the South.

Chopping Paris. Although waiting for math would boost the chops with a lack of 6hammer/food tiles chopping will speed up our first couple of settlers/workers so I think the gain now rather than waiting for later would be better. Also we can be a bit selective on what tiles to chop and hope for re-growth (optomisim again). I believe forest spread is calculated on adjacent tiles not on the diagonal?

Fog busting/barb defence. Once we have a better idea of the surrounding lands we can work out where best to place some fog busters etc. With the sheep to the West we can hope for some horses for chariots which would solve the barb problem. Just when to fit AH in?

techs we need:

For Oracle - Myst - poly/med (med is a couple of turns quicker) - priest.

Writing. Looking at the lands perhaps it would be better to run scientists for our early beakers. We can go via priest or pottery.

AH. Probably sooner rather than later. If we end up faming the flood plains not any need for pottery other than for MC from the Oracle.

Fish. Settle the fish sites and run scientists early there?

Personally I think I would prefer to go AH next to find horses and open up the sheep site as our second or third city site.

Back in a couple of days. Good luck Ozbenno on your turnset

Grifftavian · Sep 28, 2012

Sleepless said:
...Our exploring warrior I would let the lion attack it and promote woody1 when it wins... Always optomistic but on a forest hill odds of losing are pretty remote. ...

I like the idea of giving Warrior 0 the Woodsman I promotion if he survives. Note that he is just standing on that forested hill now, so he could be Fortified to help his survival odds.

timmy827 · Sep 28, 2012

Quick thoughts, will have more when Ozbenno posts a PPP:

I would do a 3rd warrior and grow to 4 before settler with no one close. Might look at the numbers with worker-action-variations later.

I forgot about Creative's cheap libraries, so with the low commerce I like the idea of heading to Writing next. Path depends on next city - if we settle west with the sheep I'd go AH->Writing, if settle somewhere else I'm not sure.

One comment: please be careful with worker actions. It appears that the worker started a road before farming (makes sense, the corn is 2 tiles away, so 1t can be put on a road without delay of the farm) but then the road was completed and the corn delayed one turn. This early, those 1t things do matter. Sorry to be nitpicky early (and please correct me if I'm wrong about what happened).

Ozbenno, might be worth a quick pause after 3 turns when our borders pop if they show anything interesting north or east.

EDIT: Agree with the warrior 'stand his ground' plan.

SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Fly Fly Away

King

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Deity

Emperor

King

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