Ronnie1
Deity
I noticed this also, and you are correct, little things matter early on.
Why not settler immediately at size 3?
SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Why not settler immediately at size 3?
Grifftavian
Emperor
Yep, my mistake. I was going to have the Warrior just build the Road for 1T as aj suggested, but I got distracted when all those Lions decided to try and have Warrior 0 for lunch. Sorry. Minor Consolation: we'll be able to hook up the Corn for the Health bonus one turn sooner once we get to the point when we need it.
Happy to do this.
PPP for three turns...
- Research Animal Husbandry for horses and Writing
- Keep building warrior, aim for it to be built when we are size 3 and then settler
- Fortify warrior and woodsman promote next turn
Will do the three turns in 24 hours and hopefully a few more 24 after that with new PPP.
adrianj
Deity
I think get city 2 built ASAP. Anyone have time to sim/calculate which path builds settler fastest:
1) Start at size 3 with chops.
2) Start at size 4, revolt to slavery, whip to completion.
I like the PPP. AH next tech sounds great to hopefully reveal horses.
1) Start at size 3 with chops.
2) Start at size 4, revolt to slavery, whip to completion.
I like the PPP. AH next tech sounds great to hopefully reveal horses.
Ronnie1
Deity
I do not right now Adrian, but it is a great point. Oz should wait until we are clear which way is better. My gut says starting @ 3, but that is a total guess.
Grifftavian
Emperor
Currently, it is 3 turns for Paris' borders to expand, 4 turns until Paris grows to size 3, and 8 turns to complete the Warrior. I think it is safe for Oz to play the 3 turns per his plan when he is ready. That still gives us some time to decide on how to build the Settler, and see what the border expansion reveals.
Conquistador 63
Deity
Hi guys,
Not home yet but was able to get some internet access on my way back.
Just read the thread, and it's nice to see we're doing progress. Please allow me to share some thoughts about our short and long term objectives.
First things first - the short term.
Agree on going for Oracle, but without gold, gems or silver around I think CoL is a better and easier (read safer) goal than MC or Theo. I understood from last comments we're going AH/Writing to speed research, and look for horses for barb defense - and I agree with this part. But those early (even if cheap) libraries will slow our expansion. I suggest we go AH/Myst/Med/PH, then Writing while building the Oracle.
We still get a religion, and with Oracle's GPP (and also with a temple to run a prophet) we can farm a GProphet to easily bulb Theo later. Also, we get access to courthouses which will help us steal IW and help with city maintenance, and will be on track to CS.
On the longer term:
Our starting land may not be brilliant, but I think we at least will have room to get our 6 decent cities required for an early OxU. Lack of early contacts is intriguing, but I bet we will find at least 1 neighbor soon, given the mapscript. Still on the mapscript, I think we should be getting fishing for exploring WB's as soon as we can fit it, for exploring and getting contacts and trade routes.
Longer term
My first thoughts when I read the game objectives was that we should target space+dom, after all when I get some good space finishes I often struggle to not cross the Dom land threshold.
But as timmy and adrian have mentioned, Dom+Diplo must be faster, even having to tech to FT1. Even in that case, the route to victory should be similar to a space race game - balance tech and expansion, only we don't actually need to build the parts. However, Sushi and Mining will help a lot, not only with the corp objectives, but with speeding up research and culture in those 2 future legendary cities.
Longest post in a while, blame it on my 2-week abstinence on the forums!
Not home yet but was able to get some internet access on my way back.
Just read the thread, and it's nice to see we're doing progress. Please allow me to share some thoughts about our short and long term objectives.
First things first - the short term.
Agree on going for Oracle, but without gold, gems or silver around I think CoL is a better and easier (read safer) goal than MC or Theo. I understood from last comments we're going AH/Writing to speed research, and look for horses for barb defense - and I agree with this part. But those early (even if cheap) libraries will slow our expansion. I suggest we go AH/Myst/Med/PH, then Writing while building the Oracle.
We still get a religion, and with Oracle's GPP (and also with a temple to run a prophet) we can farm a GProphet to easily bulb Theo later. Also, we get access to courthouses which will help us steal IW and help with city maintenance, and will be on track to CS.
On the longer term:
Our starting land may not be brilliant, but I think we at least will have room to get our 6 decent cities required for an early OxU. Lack of early contacts is intriguing, but I bet we will find at least 1 neighbor soon, given the mapscript. Still on the mapscript, I think we should be getting fishing for exploring WB's as soon as we can fit it, for exploring and getting contacts and trade routes.
Longer term
My first thoughts when I read the game objectives was that we should target space+dom, after all when I get some good space finishes I often struggle to not cross the Dom land threshold.
But as timmy and adrian have mentioned, Dom+Diplo must be faster, even having to tech to FT1. Even in that case, the route to victory should be similar to a space race game - balance tech and expansion, only we don't actually need to build the parts. However, Sushi and Mining will help a lot, not only with the corp objectives, but with speeding up research and culture in those 2 future legendary cities.
Longest post in a while, blame it on my 2-week abstinence on the forums!
Ronnie1
Deity
The reason to NOT do this now is to figure out if building settler at size 3 is better than size 4.
I am going to do some math and see if I can get close.
Can someone please build a test game platform that we can use for this kind of stuff, as I am real busy right now.
EDIT: Thanks for the input C63!
timmy827
King
One thought - growing to size 3 and chopping the settler doesn't sound good to me. Our worker needs 8 turns to farm the FP (1 to move, 7 to farm), and I think if we line up the warrior/size 3 growth that is 5 turns from now...so if the worker chops, then there is no time to improve a tile for citizen #3.
So if we want to chop settler, suggest swapping from FP to forested plains hill now, staying size 2; worker does something like mine the bare plains hill then chops. Not suggesting this is best, but think it makes more sense than chopping at size 3.
I dunno, a general preference of mine to grow more and value of more scouting early, not necessarily backed up by real analysis. Unfortunately I don't have time to lay out all the numbers either. Since most others seem to want Settler as fast as possible I'm ok with it.
So if we want to chop settler, suggest swapping from FP to forested plains hill now, staying size 2; worker does something like mine the bare plains hill then chops. Not suggesting this is best, but think it makes more sense than chopping at size 3.
I dunno, a general preference of mine to grow more and value of more scouting early, not necessarily backed up by real analysis. Unfortunately I don't have time to lay out all the numbers either. Since most others seem to want Settler as fast as possible I'm ok with it.
Will hold off....
Ronnie1
Deity
Built a VERY rudimentary test bed, that is attached.
Tested 2 options only.
1) Balancing warrior build and growth to size 3 so they happen at the same time and then settler immediately. Worker farms floodplain and chops 1 forest. RESULT = settler is walking T38 and Paris is still size 3.
2) Revolt to slavery immediately, grow ASAP to size 4, and switch to settler immediately upon growth to size 4. Worker farms floodplain, chops 1 forest, and whip city ASAP for 2 pop. RESULT = Settler is walking T37, BUT Paris is size 2.
Tested 2 options only.
1) Balancing warrior build and growth to size 3 so they happen at the same time and then settler immediately. Worker farms floodplain and chops 1 forest. RESULT = settler is walking T38 and Paris is still size 3.
2) Revolt to slavery immediately, grow ASAP to size 4, and switch to settler immediately upon growth to size 4. Worker farms floodplain, chops 1 forest, and whip city ASAP for 2 pop. RESULT = Settler is walking T37, BUT Paris is size 2.
Ronnie1
Deity
I am not sure which is the better option, and would be happy with either result. I think we should take a quick poll, unless someone wishes to argue the merits of these options or come up with other options. I am sure there are other ways that may be better, I'm just to tired to deal with it right now. Night all....
T38 size 3 seems better than T37 size 2 for mine
timmy827
King
I tried my way too.
Let's call Ronnie's tests
A = build at size 3 with a chop
B = grow to size 4, whip
C = stay size two, chop.
My result was two forests chopped and settler done at T37; the last chop was on last settler turn so there is a lot of overflow (34h), problably should do another worker at that point (especially since this has a PH mine instead of a FP farm, working best tiles is slow growth). Paris at size 2 (7/24).
I'd say A>B for for sure. After a test, I think I like C over A narrowly on assumption that after our settler, next build is a worker. (I will admit its a smaller difference than I thought). If we do C I suggest the worker actions are
a. mine the bare PH NW of corn
b. move 1S, chop
c. move 1SW, chop
(at this point the settler is done, worker can move 1W and farm the floodplain).
Grifftavian
Emperor
I like the T38/Size 3 option.
EDIT: x-post with t827
EDIT: x-post with t827
If A>B and C>D the A/D > B/C.
Ronnie1
Deity
I debated a bit with myself if mining was better than farming as the next worker action.
I think another test, grow to size 3 and chop twice, with a mine instead of a farm may yield even better results.
I am going to look at that now that I have a cup of coffee in me and my brain is engaged again.
I think another test, grow to size 3 and chop twice, with a mine instead of a farm may yield even better results.
I am going to look at that now that I have a cup of coffee in me and my brain is engaged again.
Ronnie1
Deity
The above test yields a settler walking T37 @ size 3 with no revolt to slavery obviously. 15
overflow into a worker which will be done in 5 turns if we do not chop again.
I mined the PH and then chopped 2 forests to get this result, which I like better than T38 size 3.
overflow into a worker which will be done in 5 turns if we do not chop again.I mined the PH and then chopped 2 forests to get this result, which I like better than T38 size 3.
Ronnie1
Deity
If we continue to chop, 1 forest into the worker, it reduces build time to 4 turns, and follow with another settler with 1 worker chopping while the other farms the floodplain, we can have settler number 2 walking on T49. Without knowing exactly where that settler would go, we can estimate that we would get 3 cities up by about T51 - T53.
Ronnie1
Deity
Just thinking, I would need to revise the 2nd worker and 2nd settler back 1T due to revolt to slavery while settler 1 is walking. This needs to be done then if we do not do it to whip that 1st settler.
Continuing this path, if we follow settler 2 with worker 3, then we should end up with 3 cities all with their own worker support before ~T60.
Continuing this path, if we follow settler 2 with worker 3, then we should end up with 3 cities all with their own worker support before ~T60.
