SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Grifftavian]

If we continue to chop, 1 forest into the worker, it reduces build time to 4 turns, and follow with another settler with 1 worker chopping while the other farms the floodplain, we can have settler number 2 walking on T49. Without knowing exactly where that settler would go, we can estimate that we would get 3 cities up by about T51 - T53.

Considering that we wandered around for 2 turns before settling, getting our 3rd city down by T51 - T53 sounds pretty good.

Have we made a determination about where to found City #2? NW Coast at the mouth of the river, claiming the Fish, Incense & Sheep?

 

[Ronnie1]

I think city 2 is on the plains hill claiming the wheat and flood plains.

 

[timmy827]

I think city 2 is on the plains hill claiming the wheat and flood plains.

What's the rationale? The sheep/fish/incense city looks clearly better to me. Sheep is marginally better than dry wheat, the wheat city has no 2nd food bonus like the fish tile; both sites have some hills and floodplains. I think those factors outweigh the +1 hammer from city on a PH.

Also which PH did you mean, the bare one 3S2W of Paris?

 

[Ronnie1]

What's the rationale? The sheep/fish/incense city looks clearly better to me. Sheep is marginally better than dry wheat, the wheat city has no 2nd food bonus like the fish tile; both sites have some hills and floodplains. I think those factors outweigh the +1 hammer from city on a PH.

Also which PH did you mean, the bare one 3S2W of Paris?

Yes on the plains hill 3S2W.

The problem with the fish city short term is we don't know fishing and it sounded like the short term research goal was AH then Priesthood then writing so we could take CoL from the Oracle.

The plains hill being closer also has reduced maintenance, immediate trade routes because it is connected by the river inside borders, and doesn't need a warrior escort for animals.

 

[adrianj]

I like the nearby plains hill city first because with the wheat and settled on PH it is a reasonably strong city almost immediately, and can quickly contribute to our expansion.

Up by the fish, sheep and incense requires the fish to be netted, implying first build is WB. It could be 10+ turns before it is building the workers/warriors we want for early expansion. Sheep is slightly better than dry wheat (+1), but don't forget the plains hill also gives +1.

Regarding the 3 build options for Paris - I like whichever gets the settler built first. 2x chop sounds great to me, as a second worker shortly after is also nice.

 

[Ozbenno]

New PPP for the three turns

Research AH
Worker mine hill
Juggle tiles so warrior completes when size 3
Fortify warrior and then woodsman promote.

If OK I can play tonight....

 

[timmy827]

sounds fine to me. Thanks for your patience Oz as we yammer back and forth

 

[Ronnie1]

Good by me OZ!

sounds fine to me. Thanks for your patience Oz as we yammer back and forth

Yammering is why the results in Xotm competitions is almost always better than individual play.

 

[timmy827]

Yammering is why the results in Xotm competitions is almost always better than individual play.

Of course. Was just trying to be a bit lighthearted; sorry if taken the wrong way. I do want to remind that we need to get to T100 by Nov. 14th though. Discussion is great but want to make sure we dont fall behind and have to rush turns 70-100.

 

[Ozbenno]

Speaking of which, I'll be done in next few hours for three turns.

 

[Ozbenno]

OK, so I changed research to Animal Husbandry, moved the worker to the plains hill and fortified the warrior in anticipation of the glorious promotion to Woodman I. The lion had other ideas and attacked this fellow instead.

Assume he came from due south of where the warrior was so continued in that direction unpromoted.

Alternated tiles from the silk to floodplain for 3 turns and...

We have a second deer and a pig. Useful for later cities but doesn't change to my mind where we put our second.

I uploaded the save for thoughts, will post another PPP in 12 hours or so until completion of AH at which point I'll vacate the seat.

 

[Sleepless]

Just had a quick look at the save. Now we are going AH the sheep site as our next city makes sense. Should still get the immediate trade route now we have the border pop and probably won't need an escort. Just have to be very careful.

Espionage points. Would change all points to Brennus if we want to steal IW somewhere along the way.

One question?? cottages or farms?? I think this should decide our tech path. Whether we go for pottery first then - priesthood - writing. Or just head for priest - writing.

Settler at size 3 speed up by chops sounds good as well.

 

[Ronnie1]

Of course. Was just trying to be a bit lighthearted; sorry if taken the wrong way. I do want to remind that we need to get to T100 by Nov. 14th though. Discussion is great but want to make sure we dont fall behind and have to rush turns 70-100.

No worries Timmy! I just do not know how familiar you are with succession games.

Great to see more food.

@sleepless, why do you think Sheep city is better than Wheat city? We still can't get a WB out for the Fish and the extra hammer from the city square of the Wheat sort of cancels the benefit of the extra coin from the Sheep.

I would also like to see a bit more discussion about The Oracle and what we think we can get there. I like CoL so we can get a religion and work towards CS.

However, I think a beeline towards OPTICS > ASTRO for meeting overseas trade partners might prove to be valuable as this game progresses. That makes Metal Casting a reasonable choice also.

 

[adrianj]

Some random, unsorted thoughts:

I notice that Brennus is Buddhist. If we plan to be friendly with him, the easiest method is certainly to share his religion. If we were to found a religion (eg, Confu) would we even switch to it?

If we don't plan to switch to Confu, is there any rush to found it? If there's no rush, do we still want to take CoL using the Oracle?

If we meet more AIs, then Metal Casting from Oracle becomes more valuable for trade.

If we meet more AIs, then an Optics beeline isn't so necessary, reducing the importance of Metal Casting

Our warrior due to be built soon (warrior 1) should explore around the pigs some more. Sounds obvious, just thought I'd write it down.

Warrior 0 I have no strong opinion about. One choice is to come back around anti-clockwise to explore the starting area more. Another choice is to continue as far as it can in a straight line to find other AIs. I guess I'm leaning slightly toward the latter.

I'd also ask this:

@sleepless, why do you think Sheep city is better than Wheat city? We still can't get a WB out for the Fish and the extra hammer from the city square of the Wheat sort of cancels the benefit of the extra coin from the Sheep.

In any case, warrior 1 might show us that an even better city #2 can be founded to claim fish + pigs? Though not immediately connected for trade.

Do we want to settle more in the direction of Brennus to block him out of our lands?

Do we want to make a play for The Great Lighthouse?

 

[Grifftavian]

It's 2 or 3 turns to finish the Warrior, then about 12 turns minus chops for the Settler. We'll learn Animal Husbandry in 9 turns. We may not get the Settler out before we finished AH, but if we do IMO we should hold off founding City #2 until AH has been learned, and see if any Horses show up. I think that may have a big influence on where we put City #2, especially since there is no Copper visible on the map so far.

 

[Ronnie1]

Warrior and growth occur IBT T28-T29.

Settler is ready to walk T37.

AH will be learned IBT T35-T36

We will know all there is to know by T36. For that reason, I favor sending warrior 1 SE to explore horse potential that direction.

The ONLY tile that could work both Fish and the Pigs is where the Lion is right now. i'm not sure that is good enough WITHOUT Horses for it to be city #2. Even with horses, it may not be better if the horses are workable by Paris also.

I would keep warrior 0 moving south through the jungle to find Brennus.

@ AJ, Why would we play nice with him? If we are alone with him he won't trade. If we are NOT alone, he is most likely closest meaning best first target.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Agree with Griff, 2nd city should hook horses if at all possible. Just not sure of which completes first, the settler build or the tech. Or maybe our maker was so evil to deny us both copper and horses, forcing us to tech IW, instead of stealing it?

OTOH, if there are horses available, is a chariot rush a viable stategy? Even the chariots lack the firepower to capture his capitol, IMO we could still benefit from harrassing him. In my latest games at this difficulty level, the closest neighbor is almost always my prime supplier of workforce. I would even continue exploring towards south as Oz has done, and try our luck at capturing unsuspecting workers.

Which turn are we at? As adrianj says, it's advisable to disable BUFFY's clock option which shows the useless % of completed turns.

Also, could someone post a zoomed-out map of the explored lands?


EDIT: crosspost with Ronnie1, agreed on all accounts

 

[Sleepless]

Bit late for me so will try and post more tomorrow..

From the espionage points it looks like Brennus already knows someone else so unlikely to be isolated as such.

@Ronnie1. If we cottage the flood plains the sheep site has more available (we'd have to irrigate one for the wheat site). If we settle on the plains tile we can start the pasture straight away. Tbh though pretty easy atm. More exploring might find something better as well.

 

[Grifftavian]

...
Also, could someone post a zoomed-out map of the explored lands?...

Zoomed out screen shot attached. It is currently turn 27/500.

 

[adrianj]

We can hold off making the final decision for settling until the settler is actually ready to move. Ron points out that we will have knowledge of AH by that time, so we should have all the information we need.

@Sleepless - good catch with espionage points.

Some XML info on Brennus

iTechTradeKnownPercent = 40. This tells us how many other AIs he knows must know a tech before he will be willing to trade it. It's pretty much average.
NoWarProbs = 20/70/100/100. At Cautious he still has a 70% to NOT declare war on us. At Pleased or better he won't even think about it.
OB at Cautious (or better).
Tech Trade at Cautious
Can be bribed into war at Cautious, provided he is Cautious or worse with target (this could be useful)
Can be bribed into other Civic at Pleased, other Religion at Friendly (ie, difficult)
Favourite Civic = Organised Religion. Up to max of 4. An easy, early civic to share.
iSameReligionLimit = 6, ie, since he is the Buddhist founder, we could get up to +8 from shared religion (limit + 1 + 1)
iBaseAttitude = -1. We already start with a hidden -1 modifier.


Summary
I think Brennus can be a useful AI to have as a friend. He should be easy to please fairly early in the game if we adopt his religion or share his favourite civic. He could be a useful attack dog, since we can bribe him into wars with targets he is Cautious with. Once Pleased he is pretty much guaranteed to not back stab us.