SGOTM 16 - The Shawshank Redemption

Pre-Play Plan
- Set Research to Mining
- Move Warrior 1NE PFor
- Stop play and upload a screenshot
- Get consensus from the team as to whether or not we can make a good enough Fish City out of what is revealed

The next Pre-Play Plan, after consensus is achieved
i. If No, it doesn't look like we can make a good Fish City out of settling NE + N of the Warrior's initial location, then we'll move the Settler 1W
ii. If Yes, it does look like we can make a good Fish City out of settling NE + N of the Warrior's initial location, we'll need to decide if we want to move 1W anyway for other reasons (more centralized capital, better inland fog-busting, slightly easier for neighbours to meet us, etc) or if we'll choose to settle in place

A) If we move the Settler, we'll need to have another Warrior movement planned out, which you I execute, take another screenshot, and then pause play again to confirm that we're happy settling; optionally move our units (including the Settler) even more or else decide to settle 1W; if we settle 1W, then continue with the actions below, otherwise continue to make screenshots, pause play, and solicit feedback on where to move our units until we have finally settled somewhere, then continue with the actions below
B) If we settle in place, then continue on with the actions below

- Regardless of when we settle, be sure to take a Demographics screenshot after settling, in case that tells us anything
- Take screenshots of anything and everything that seems remotely useful
- If we meet an AI, going into the Espionage screen (Ctrl + e) and assign an Espionage Weight of 1 to that AI; that way, if we meet another AI later, we'll be able to choose how many Espionage Points per Turn to assign to each AI, rather than letting the game decide for us
- Build a Worker first
- Leave the City Governor on for now, although we'll almost be certainly working the Flood Plains square until the Worker has been completed and then likely will still be working the Flood Plains square, but that should fall into the next player's (Jastrow's) turnset, as I would like to end my turnset when our Worker has been completed (or even sooner), so that we can stop to run some more thorough test games, given our additional knowledge of the surrounding area at that time
- Strongly consider switching tech to Animal Husbandry (instead of Mining) if an Animal Husbandry Resource is revealed in our capital's big fat cross; since we already know Agriculture, that should be the only other realistic tech choice besides Mining
- Perform exploration with the Warrior as per team consensus; try and provide screenshots and get some sort of agreement as to which direction to send the Warrior; recall that for movements up to and including Turn 5's movements, we cannot move next to a Barb Animal, since they can't exist until the start of our Turn 6, and they can't spawn within 2 squares of where our unit ends its turn at the end of Turn 5


Kindly let me know if you disagree with anything in the plan. If you do, we can discuss the issue until we have consensus or else can wait to vote before playing if we can't achieve consensus.

Also, kindly let me know if you think that I forgot to add anything into the plan.

If you agree with the plan, or at least if you agree with most of it except for a couple of minor comments/changes, please also take the time to post that fact.
 
I agree with the PPP (first 4 points).

As for fogbusting, the only 2 tiles I am unsure about are: 2W1N (grassland), 2W2S (plains). The tile 2W2S could also contain a hill, I did not test that in WB.

Thought a little about the possible AIs. If I was the scenario bullder I'd choose AIs that have negative base diplo modifiers towards Louis, to make diplo (and a diplo victory for objective #9) a bit harder. I do not know how these modifiers are in relation to Loius and have not played him as a leader often TBH. Do any of you have an idea which AIs hate Louis?
(I have looked at DanF's XML variables file (iBaseAttitude) but could not really make any out of it.)
 
Your PPP looks fine to me, Dhoom.

We can use the green bar above our warrior to determine what unit Humbaba is. You'll notice in Dhoom's test game shots, the green bar is long while in the real save, the green bar is much smaller. I don't think we have to spend too much time on it since Humbaba is way down the road. It can normally be useful to determine if Mansa Musa is in the game with his Skirmishers being 4:strength: instead of the normal 3:strength:, but there is no way to tell in this game due to Humbaba being in it.

Dhoom, not that it's a big deal, but how did you calculate Mansa's starting soldiers (the only one I checked) to be 22K? I calculate it to be:

Two starting archers = 2 * 3K = 6K
The Wheel = 4K
Mining = 2K
Hunting = 2K
Archery = 6K
Total = 20K

What am I missing?

Looking back at your list, I also think Hammurabi should be 18K, not 20K. The other few I checked seem to be correct.
 
Dhoom, not that it's a big deal, but how did you calculate Mansa's starting soldiers (the only one I checked) to be 22K?
It was a big deal to me since I launched a Dual Map game for every single Leader just to check their values, haha.

:newyear: (that icon = the closest that I have to "new info," to call attention to new info edited into a message) EDIT: Interestingly, the leader selection list isn't sorted alphabetically, because Ramesses II appears before Ragnar in the list of Leaders.

I first wrote down the data in order and then whipped together a quick perl program to sort the data first by value and then alphabetically.

Actually, on that note, if anyone has a text-based list of Leaders and their Traits, then I could programatically add that data to my list, which will make the list far more valuable (i.e. you could see how many Industrious Leaders exist in a particular Soldiers category, for example, and after we meet an AI or two, we'll hopefully be able to eliminate a category of similar Solder values or at least reduce the total count of other possible Leaders from the same category).


It can normally be useful to determine if Mansa Musa is in the game with his Skirmishers being 4:strength: instead of the normal 3:strength:
...
Two starting archers = 2 * 3K = 6K
...
What am I missing?
I added the bolding.


Looking back at your list, I also think Hammurabi should be 18K, not 20K. The other few I checked seem to be correct.
Hammurabi has Bowmen.


I'm not sure where to look it up, but I imagine that both Skirmishers and Bowmen have Soldier values of 4000 instead of the 3000 for regular Archers.
 
I'm not sure where to look it up, but I imagine that both Skirmishers and Bowmen have Soldier values of 4000 instead of the 3000 for regular Archers.

You nailed it. :goodjob: The best post I've found regarding how to understand the demo data is here.

One thing to note is that Creative leaders borders will pop sooner than non-Creative leaders. If we check the Land figures each turn in the first few turns, we can a) guesstimate how many AI are coastal and b) figure out how many Creative leaders are in our game.
 
I have done a serious run on test save A.

Settled W of start position and settled second city N of warrior. Tech path went:
Mining - BW - fishing - pottery - writing - mysticism - meditation - pottery - hunting - archery - sailing - masonry.

Built library once I finished writing, and ran 2 scientist in capital.
Built oracle on turn 63, and picked Metal Casting.
Built TGLH on turn 79.
Got a great scientist which I used for academy on turn 71.
Have forge + library in both cities. No granaries.
Have 6 warriors, 3 workers, and one exploration work boat, but could have had 1-2 archers instead of forge in capital.

Had open borders with traderoutes for some turns.
Capital have one flood plain and one riverside green hill.
Have chopped all forests in both bfc.

I didn't have any luxuries or resources except the corn and fish on the screenshot.

Nice test run. It's hard to get a lot done when all you give yourself are the visible resources in the test game. Hopefully KCD was a bit nicer than that and we've got some good stuff in the fog.

Having only two cities on T79 is a bit slow, I think. Again, it's hard when you don't have any resources and you're building libraries and running two early scientists to get an early academy. However, I'd be inclined to go for another city at the expense of a later academy/library/forge. The sooner we settle those early cities, the sooner they can start contributing to our empire.

I hate to research Hunting or Archery unless I absolutely have to. Let's pray that we can skip them here. In the last BOTM (which I made it to 0 AD but did not finish), the game was at Immortal level and we were isolated so barbs were a bear (no pun intended) and I survived without archers or copper. We did have horses so I did get the help of chariots. I'd be more inclined to research AH than Hunting/Archery even though it is a gamble. It will be less of a gamble if there is a pasture resource that we want early on.

The Oracle is quite cheap. Like Dhoom said, it would be nice if we could build it in our third city so as to avoid any GPro GPP in our capital. However, collecting wonders in 2 or 3 cities will be nice when it comes to getting two (or three) legendary cities.

EDIT: Did you actually have to research Pottery twice? :D I assume that the second one was Priesthood.

I expect our testing to pick up in earnest once Dhoom has scouted the surrounding area... and not having our warrior sitting on his butt in a forest somewhere. :mischief:
 
OK, there are three approvals for Dhoom's PPP (assuming he approves it too ;)). I suggest that he can start playing when a) two more people approve it and there are no dissenting comments or b) 24 hours after posting his PPP, whichever comes first.
 
I agree with ppp plan too. I can give details on my game later. I built two workers before the settler. Built oracle on two turns with chops. Built forge before lighthouse
 
I pieced together the hidden diplo modifier. For the player vs AI it is pretty straightforward actually. Though the AI attitude (vs player or vs AI) is determined by 25 factors, there are only 3 factors that determine the hidden diplo modifier vs player("A first impression is a lasting one", short AFIIALO).

Formula AFIIALO vs player (1):
AI Leader iBaseAttitude + player Leader iBaseAttitude + difficulty level modifier + aggresive AI option (add -2, not appicable)

Louis iBaseAttitude == 0
EMP difficulty level == -1 (to be complete -1 on Noble and above)

The table below shows the AFIIALO versus Louis on EMP level:
AFIIALO|Leaders
-2|BRENNUS, DE_GAULLE, GENGHIS_KHAN, ISABELLA, MEHMED, MONTEZUMA, NAPOLEON, RAGNAR, SHAKA, STALIN, TOKUGAWA
-1|ALEXANDER, AUGUSTUS, BOUDICA, CHARLEMAGNE, CHURCHILL, GILGAMESH, HAMMURABI, HANNIBAL, HUAYNA_CAPAC, JOAO,
-1|JULIUS_CAESAR, KUBLAI_KHAN, LOUIS_XIV, MAO_ZEDONG, PETER, SALADIN, SITTING_BULL, SULEIMAN, SURYAVARMAN, VICTORIA,
-1|WANGKON, WASHINGTON, WILLEM_VAN_ORANJE
0|ASOKA, BISMARCK, CATHERINE, CYRUS, DARIUS, ELIZABETH, FRANKLIN_ROOSEVELT, FREDERICK, HATSHEPSUT, JUSTINIAN,
0|LINCOLN, MANSA_MUSA, PACAL, PERICLES, QIN_SHI_HUANG
+1|GANDHI, ZARA_YAQOB

Tested this on some games and seems to be accurate so far.
NOTE: my Buffy DOES NOT SHOW these modifiers, BUG 4.4 does though

For AI vs AI hidden diplo the formula becomes much more complex. Also the values can be much more extreme (range -6 to +6, maybe even more) compared to vs player (range -2 to 1). I did not go into detail, once we meet other AI we can simply knock-up a simple EMP small pangaea map to determine these.

Edit:
Double checked demographics screen
Dhoom wrote:
Since the Average value is 16333, we know that the sum of the remaining 4 AIs' values must be 66000. If anyone can explain the math of how I figured that out, it would be great.

Is that a trick question? :lol:

6 * 16333 = 97988, which becomes 98000 total soldiers rounded up. Since there is at least one AI with 14k soldiers and at least one with 18k solders this means: 98k - (18k +14k) = 66k soldiers to be divided by 4 "other" AI.

I also checked the possible soldier combinations (14k / 16k / 18k) and come to the same conclusion that there are only 2 possible, the same Dhoom already found:
18000 = 2 AIs
16000 = 3 AIs
14000 = 1 AI
OR
18000 = 3 AIs
16000 = 1 AI
14000 = 2 AIs
 
Can't sleep. I forgot something.

Strongly consider switching tech to Animal Husbandry (instead of Mining) if an Animal Husbandry Resource is revealed in our capital's big fat cross; since we already know Agriculture, that should be the only other realistic tech choice besides Mining
You don't have to decide on a tech till after turn 5 i think. Just unchoose the current tech every turn. If you do it wrongly some tech is chosen by default, so don't do it unless you are 100 % certain that you understand how it works. I'm on my phone so can't check it myself.
 
You don't have to decide on a tech till after turn 5 i think. Just unchoose the current tech every turn. If you do it wrongly some tech is chosen by default, so don't do it unless you are 100 % certain that you understand how it works. I'm on my phone so can't check it myself.
I remember reading that you might miss out on the free Flask if you don't pick a tech, but this claim seems to not be true for the latest BtS with BUFFY... maybe it's true for older versions (like Vanilla?).

Anyway, what you said seems to be true... the free Flask plus any Flasks that you have accumulated will stay in a "temporal bucket" until Turn 5... but, if on Turn 5 you DO NOT select a tech, all of those accumulated Flasks DISAPPEAR INTO THIN AIR!

Since we want to settle on Turn 0 or Turn 1 and sine we don't get a free flask until after we've settled our City, I don't think that this tactic will help us this game, but it sure is interesting to know. The next time that I am playing on Quick Speed and am contemplating beelining a Religion, I might be able to use this tactic to my advantage.
 
Okay, I moved the Warrior 1NE to the PFor. Unfortunately, no Resources were revealed and it looks like there aren't any Forests available to the north, either. So, I think that we're clearly going to have to move the Settler if we want to guarantee The Great Lighthouse for our Civ.

Given that we have the Hills square SW + S of the Settler, moving 1W with the Settler is the only move that will keep that Hills square. Also, now that we have committed our Warrior to the east, it doesn't make sense to go wandering, as we won't have the Warrior to support exploration.

Anyway, here are the images:
Spoiler :
3145f00a89.jpg

e885f99181.jpg

18072fec94.jpg
 
Note that I DID select Mining (as per the PPP) and then unselected it, both because of ingentingg's feedback and because it's a reversible move, such that I can always reselect it before the end of the turn if anyone insists, but it does seem like keeping it unselected has the potential to work in our favour, or more likely, will have no effect at all, since we'll settle on Turn 1, thus negating this trick's effects.


Now, the question is: after moving 1W, shall we just settle or do you guys want to see some screenshots and delay another 24 hours before settling? Let's say that if anyone wants to see screenshots before we simply settle at 1W, then they can say "I approve of the PPP's Option A." If anyone goes for Option A, then Option A it will be. Otherwise, you can approve Option B, where Option B will be to have me immediately settle. Your third choice, as is always an option, is to object on something in the PPP and we'll wait to play until either that issue is resolved or else after we've put the issue to a period of discussion followed by a vote.

Pre-Play Plan
Turn 0, 4000 BC (continued)
- Put a couple of "REAL SAVE" signs on the map, to help differentiate this game from the test games (note that in the World Builder, the top left icon lets you add Barbarian-coloured signs to the map which say TEST GAME. Since you can't make that colour of sign in the real game, it's a good way to confirm that you have a test game in front of you. To remove a Barbarian-coloured sign, select the top left icon in the World Builder and right-click on said sign)
- Move the Settler 1W
- Take some screenshots of the area revealed
- End the turn

Turn 1, 3960 BC
- Select Mining when prompted to select a tech
- Unselect Mining
- Take screenshots of anything and everything that seems remotely useful (like Demographic data)
- Move the Warrior 1NW P (even if we do want to explore the Coast, the Coast so far looks like it goes straight in a northerly direction, meaning that we could move NW, NW, NE, NE and explore just as much Coast as heading 4 squares N but would get less inland visibility that way. Seeing as how our Cultural Borders will explore a lot of the non-Coast in the area, it may make sense to do just that... NW, NW, NE, NE, and then NW and loop around outside of the area that will be exposed by our 2nd Cultural Border expansion. Seeing as how we'll get The Great Lighthouse, it'll be nice to know if another Seafood Resource will be nearby or if a nearby island can be spotted from our brief foray to the Coast.)
- Take a screenshot of the area that the Warrior revealed
OPTION A:
- Pause the game, save the game, and stop play

OPTION B:
- Settle on the square 1W
- Start building a Worker
- Take some more screenshots
- Pause the game, save the game, and stop play (by stopping play here, we can decide on what tech to select, confirm that we want to build a Worker first, etc)
 
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