SGOTM 16 - The Shawshank Redemption

I'm sorry you see my arguments unconvincing that Galleon chaining is an exploit. I stand by the arguments I made. My intelligence or lack thereof does not invalidate the arguments I presented. Sorry, I found none of your arguments convincing. Perhaps you can come up with some reference in the gaming literature to support your premise that Galleon chaining is not an exploit. However, I seriously doubt it was ever news worthy enough to appear there.

What would you consider convincing evidence that Galleon chaining is an exploit? Perhaps, one of the actual developers, designers or quality control people could convince you?

Good luck with SGOTM-17!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
You weave an interesting fantasy where Galleon chaining is not an exploit, but that non-Euclidean world you conjured up doesn't exist. Therfore, I reject your fanciful logic that "proves" that Galleon chaining is not an exploit. In every player's world view, the cargo of a ship cannot move further than the ship that carties it and Galleon chaining breaks this axiom. Therefore, it is an exploit.
It seems that you missed my point. You are attempting to apply a real-world construct to a game and then say that because, according to your assumptions about certain other real-world constructs the game represents, the game does not match the real world, there must be a bug.

Why can a guy with a club be bigger than a metropolis? It's a game. Certain things have to be represented in a certain way.

But, what you failed to address was to actually pay attention to my proposed alternative perspective, and that is to take away your assumption that a Galleon requires the entire 20 years, 10 years, or 1 year, however long the turn is, to actually travel from point A to point B. As I said, if that's your assumption, you should also be arguing that a unit which moves into a City and boards a Galleon should force the Galleon to be unable to move, since that unit also would have taken the full 20 years, 10 years, or 1 year to move there and just "barely make it aboard" the Galleon by the end of the turn. But, that's not what happens and it's also not what you're arguing for.

What you failed to consider was my point that you could re-examine your assumption that "5 movement points = 20 years/10 years/1 year." Instead, consider thinking of movement points as a different representation. They could represent the maximum distance that a captain is willing to sail his ship until he learns about his new environment. That sailing could actually take as little as 1 or 2 days out of the 20 years/10 years/1 years that the game represents. He might sail back and forth 200 times or even in circles in that time frame. However, at 5 successive points during that turn, his eyeglass scout "looked around" at the nearby squares (aka the revealed squares on the map). For all that we know, for the rest of the 9.99 year, that eyeglass guy could have been running a night club and not even on the boat when it sailed back and forth 200 times. We also know that at the end of that turn, the captain has rebased his new base location to be where the Galleon ends its turn. Those are the only things that we know are represented by the game--the rest, as to what happens in between, is purely up to your imagination.


The game is modeled on parts of real life but it also doesn't necessarily accurately model everything as in real life.

But, what you are doing here is applying your own assumption that "the 5 movement points of the Galleon represents the entire 10 year period that it takes to send the Galleon from point A to point B." I claim that this assumption is your own and is not stated anywhere in the Civilopedia, the instruction book, the code, or anywhere else. As I said, other possibilities exist for explaining what "movement points" actually represent. As long as you hold to your own assertion, you will be unable to open your mind to other possible meanings of movement points. Just because your personal interpretation does not fit well with how the game is modeled does not mean that the code was not designed to work in the way that it works now.



Furthermore, whether or not something is an exploit and whether or not it should be banned must not be based on popular whim or certain players' skill or lack of skill to leverage the exploit.
Why not? I have played a lot of board games with people and those reasons are precisely some of the reasons why we have used "house rules" to alter how we play our games. We play to learn, we play to have fun, we play to release stress, and we play to compete. If some of those aspects are not being met well by a mechanic of a game, then why can't a group of people decide to introduce a house rule that increases the amount of learning, fun, stress-release, and/or competitive spirit? What makes you so uptight about such a possibility that you'd want to prevent it from being possible?


The other problem is this can lead to huge numbers of bans and rules of voluntary compliance; when the number of bans becomes huge, it can become difficult to keep everything straight, play optimally and still avoid all bans which require voluntary compliance (the game will not prevent or warn you that you may be doing something that is currently banned.)
Is that how you think of the rest of us? Unable to agree to a rule and follow it, be it an official rule or more of a "house rule"? Are we really that incapable in your eyes?

When an issue of non-compliance does arise, do you see people as being unable to make a judgment call as whether it was intentionally done? Do you really have so little faith in either the admins or your fellow community members who would likely inadvertently stumble across such non-compliance when reading each others' threads after the game?


If it were possible to patch the exploit away in a new game binary reliably. that would nullify the aversion to voluntary compliance, since the patch would it transform into mandatory compliance.
Okay, we all know that's not going to happen, so why base an argument on something that cannot be? You know the limits of the situation just as well as the rest of us--an absentee Civ 4 development team--so that's what we have to work with and it's up to us to figure out how to make sure that we have an enjoyable competition despite this fact.
 
Galleon chain exploit proof:

On a cylindrical water map, a Galleon chain can actually be set up to go around the entire map in a single turn. When units move on a Railroad (more advanced than a Galleon) they are limited to 10 plots per turn. Even moderately sized maps are at least 50 plots all the way around. Thus, in this example, a Galleon chain can move a unit five times further in one turn than the same unit can move on a Railroad. Neither the Galleon or even the Transport are so much more advanced than a Railroad that they can legitimately transport a unit five times further (50+ plots) in a turn that the same unit can travel on a Railroad (10 plots) in one turn. The only way this can be done is to recognize that the Galleon chain itself is an exploit.

What is exploitative about the Galleon chain is cargo must not be loadable by more than a single Galleon. The bug is there is no flag associated with each land unit to set whether or not a unit has already been loaded; if this flag is already set, further load operations on this unit must wait until the next turn. This would prevent the Galleon chain functionality and the exploit it represents.

This proof concludes my comment on this topic, thus I plan no further comment about it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
You're debating whether the design makes sense, not whether it was programmed incorrectly. Vanilla, Warlords, Bts, every single version all permitted galleon chaining, while many, many, many bugs were corrected. The designers and programmers were fully aware of their choice to not zero out the movement points of the galleon when the cargo loaded.

Mhm. Maybe it is just that I tried loading unit which moved and had zero movement never before I read it in SGOTM thread. Never tried that cause it made no sense. If that is programming decision, I don't care. Civ 5 is also someone's idea, and it is bad.
Note that I am not referring to galleon movement. I am referring to cargo movement. Cargo which moved shouldn't be able to move any more. Especially if it had 0 movement points, and movement points in civ are needed for any action, even espionage and are also action points (bombardment action costs a move, blockade, spy action, as said, etc.). But civ says: ''If you want to switch infinite number of ships although your movement/action indicator is zero, be my guest''.

It isn't consistent with the rest of the game and defies common sense and that is why I'll always consider galleon chain as a bug. If it was a decision, it is a bad decision. Don't care which it is. Therefore I am, just to be consistent, for gpt exploit if galleons are still here, and against gpt exploit if galleon chain is banned.

Only matter of consistency. Whichever are the rules in the end, I'll comply. Don't have strong feelings about it. What bothers me is only a need to rationalize and defend a bad design feature in otherwise best game ever.

If we could vote for both galleons and gpt exploit now, I'd ban them both, together with radar trick, flying camera, and who knows what else is lurking in the code.

I know galleons are now matter of tradition in SGOTM and will never go away.

No need to bring this to personal level, guys.
 
Mhm. Maybe it is just that I tried loading unit which moved and had zero movement never before I read it in SGOTM thread. Never tried that cause it made no sense. If that is programming decision, I don't care. Civ 5 is also someone's idea, and it is bad.
Note that I am not referring to galleon movement. I am referring to cargo movement. Cargo which moved shouldn't be able to move any more. Especially if it had 0 movement points, and movement points in civ are needed for any action, even espionage and are also action points (bombardment action costs a move, blockade, spy action, as said, etc.). But civ says: ''If you want to switch infinite number of ships although your movement/action indicator is zero, be my guest''.

It isn't consistent with the rest of the game and defies common sense and that is why I'll always consider galleon chain as a bug. If it was a decision, it is a bad decision. Don't care which it is. Therefore I am, just to be consistent, for gpt exploit if galleons are still here, and against gpt exploit if galleon chain is banned.

Only matter of consistency. Whichever are the rules in the end, I'll comply. Don't have strong feelings about it. What bothers me is only a need to rationalize and defend a bad design feature in otherwise best game ever.

If we could vote for both galleons and gpt exploit now, I'd ban them both, together with radar trick, flying camera, and who knows what else is lurking in the code.

I know galleons are now matter of tradition in SGOTM and will never go away.
CIV provides the player with a Move command and a Load command. The Load command allows units to be loaded onto or off of a seagoing vessel or from one to another. The Move command allows sea and land units to move from one tile to another. Movement points refer only to moving from one tile to another.

CIV actually has units that have "infinite" movement points. ICBMs, airships, etc.

Galleon chaining comes at quite a cost compared to ICBMS. You need to build, position, and pay unit and supply maintenance for all of the galleons in the chain. For ICBMS, you only need an applicable city somewhere.

The GPT bug/exploit comes at no cost whatsoever, if you have excess resources, which is typical later on in the game. You get gpt you shouldn't get essentially for free. The AI gains resources he's not coded to want to pay for and his economy is ravaged in an unintended way. The AI has a hard enough time managing his economy without such exploits. Calling it a "subsidy" is the like saying payments to the mafia are taxes.

But again, gpt is a bug, galleon chaining is not. In the final analysis your argument is no different than arguing that stacks of doom are an exploit and that
you shouldn't be able to amass 50 units on one tile. Instead you should only be able to put one unit on a tile, so if we don't ban stacks of doom, we shouldn't ban anything else.
But of course, CIV is designed and programmed to allow more than one unit per tile and it's designed and programmed to allow loading cargo from one galleon to another.
No need to bring this to personal level, guys.
Please don't misunderstand my nuance, when confronting Sun Tzu Wu. I have no intention to demean him when I say he's being arrogant. Note that I back it up with explicit examples, quoting his text and showing how he's disrespecting either me or the CIV team. I'm not spitting epithets, I'm (in my mind) being kind enough to provide him with an external view of his behavior. In RL, one isn't often so lucky. Furthermore, I would like to know it if people were talking behind my back, at least, if I cared about those people at all. I understand that people often behave differently online than in RL. But if they behave in RL the same way they do online, then online is a perfectly safe place to make improvements. I've made many.

To me, a "best friend" who doesn't tell me my wife is cheating on me is not much of a friend.

.
 
Galleon/ferry chain existed in Civilization 1. It has not been "fixed" since, back then I thought it was a bug but now I considered it design.
In Civilization 1, it was possible to rail-road the water tiles for extra commerce but that has been addressed. Also it was possible to naturally research future tech in the BC (on higher difficulty like Monarch [Emperor was max]), that has been addressed too.
 
A similar interesting civ4 mechanic that comes to mind is Airports.

1 airport can only uplift 1 unit/turn... as long as it hasn't moved.
1 airport can be re-based to (the destination) for as many airports and units you have... 0, 1 or 1000

It's a similar process to moving units around the globe in a single turn, as long as the necessary facilities are in place.

What baffles me is that it's much more expensive (both in terms of hammers and beakers) than galleon chain and usually worse.
 
Based on the output from Plastic Ducks' members...

Plastic Ducks will not seek to manipulate the AI into trading gold per turn beyond beyond iMaxGoldPerTurnTradePercent*

The majority of the team, that voiced their opinion, was inclined in this direction.

The discussion may be re-opened if sufficient team members change their mind... but not during the course of a live game.

To other teams:
Although I would prefer than no one used this manipulation, the SGOTM staff has made it clear that they will not enforce this rule; the decision will be yours.

Good luck!

*
Spoiler :
Basically, population*iMaxGoldPerTurnTradePercent is the maximum the AI will trade.

If a trade for 2gpt is done with an AI (iMaxGoldPerTurnTradePercent = 0.10) having 25 total population... and then the AI losing 6 population (19*0.1 means only 1gpt available for trade), the deal is deemed fine as the player had no influence on manipulating the AI into trading this amount.
As per our prior agreement, The Shawshank Redemption will also operate accordingly in SG17.

Commendable choice, Plastic Ducks! If for no other reason, then because there have been some players who voiced such a strong displeasure toward this exploit that they might not have enjoyed the competition. :goodjob:

For any people for whom this is not clear, it simply means that you trade for gpt just as you always have. :) Don't sweat it.
 
Whew. With that behind us, we can focus on playing the next game, having some fun and kicking some Immortal AI tail.

@LC As your best friend, there is something I've been meaning to tell you... :lol:
 
Whew. With that behind us, we can focus on playing the next game, having some fun and kicking some Immortal AI tail.

@LC As your best friend, there is something I've been meaning to tell you... :lol:
No shirtskie. I can second that sentiment. Now I need to dig through the rubble of my life to find the teachable moment... ;)
 
Hello team!

Mitchum invited me to join TSR for the upcoming game, so I've signed up!
I will probably learn more from the team than I will add to it, and another perspective can only serve to complicate things further right?

Fast conquest is far from my specialty, as are classical era starts - if nothing else this will be something a little different!

Look forward to discussing it all further with you in private.

chopster
 
Welcome to the team chopster. Don't be afraid about complicating things. It's not possible to complicate it more than Dhoomstriker anyway. Last time we had 10 goals to fulfill, this time it's only 1. That should simplify it some.
 
:lol: There are always nuggets of wisdom to be found. You just have to know where to look... :mischief:

Definitely. And he writes quite well. His posts of 100 lines are often easier to comprehend than my own posts of 100 words. This time around I will proof read my post before I submit them, so I don't have to use the edit button 5 times. (Of course I won't)
 
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