So, does going Mining -> Pottery -> Writing completely mess up your tests, Dhoom? Do you have a strong feeling that a library ASAP (i.e. before settler #2) is the best way to go or are you just testing this option for completeness?
Going for Mining first means that we have to start building the Library later, so we have to work more production squares over a shorter period of time. The net result is that we're behind on Food and Commerce and have no real shot at getting to Size 5 before starting on Settler 2 for City #2.
So, yeah, Mining-first doesn't really fit with Library-before-Settler-#2.
Where do we stand on going for library ASAP vs. city #2 ASAP?
I want to put together a more complete test, but it looks like the most worthwhile option will be to leverage an early Academy to self-tech Math. The timing of Priesthood then gets really tight, though, so that fact might be the deal-breaker.
While we could just skip going for Math and be a bit ahead of research, that "benefit" alone does not seem to be a worthwhile tradeoff to me for delaying Bronze Working and the benefits of early Chopping. It's nice to say "yes, we can guarantee that we got an Academy," but we also can't just say "well, we got our Academy, Metal Casting from the Oracle, our The Great Lighthouse, but since we're short on production, Barbs have pillaged our lands," which is probably what will happen if we go for an early Academy without grabbing Math to offset the loss of earlier production.
Essentially, to me, the most important thing that we can get out of the early Great Scientist would be Math-enhanced Chops; using a Great Scientist to Lightbulb Math (now that we're pretty much agreed on ignoring a Civil Service Lightbulb approach) just doesn't seem like a strong enough move, given how many Great People we need for this game.
We DO, however, want an early Academy. So, that'll probably be the last bit of focus that I'll have on Pottery-first runs: just seeing how quickly we can get the Oracle built.
It could optionally be an Oracle in a 3rd City, but I think that building the Oracle in the capital works best as we'll have a lot more Forests left around to Chop and those Forests will be higher-valued Chops, and yet we'll have a low amount of Warriors kicking around, so defending a 3rd City may not make sense. It's doable to pump out another Settler, but I think that I prefer a 3rd Worker before Settler 3 (the Settler for City #3).
One additional minor variation is to get Math after Priesthood, but then we're getting several less Math-enhanced Chops, to the point that I'd rather just go for a Bronze-Working beeline rather than only get a few Math-enhanced Chops or worse, feel that we have to delay Chopping until Math arrives and thereby use up extra Worker turns pre-Chopping a whole bunch.
In the end, Bronze Working first will likely be the most flexible opening, in that we can get more Workers/Settlers out sooner. Given our Wonder priorities, we don't mind clear-cutting.
The benefit of the early Library approach is that we don't Chop away most of our Forests, so they remain available for:
a) being higher-valued Chops post-Math
AND
b) being around for helping us to build yet another Wonder (a semi-late try at The Pyramids, perhaps)
That said, we seem to have agreed that going for a Wonder like The Pyramids is more of a "nice to have" item and not so much our target goal. Yes, hiring Specialists everywhere could be nice, especially if we lack Happiness Resources, but building a lot of Coastal Cities supported by some island Cities and pairing them up with The Great Lighthouse is also a strong play.
I'm not convinced that we'll find Copper.
Also, I do have a concern about actually being able to get all of the techs needed for the Oracle and The Great Lighthouse with a Bronze-Working beeline if we don't settle City #2 as Fish City.
There's just some really strong synergy with settling Fish City as City #2...
i. it follows the "3F rule" that sisiutil came up with:
- A 3+ Food Food source within the city's workable area (steal the Corn and then the Fish takes over)
- 3 Forests within the city's workable area
- 3 squares from the capital, to minimize the impact of Maintenance costs on research and to maximize the efficiency of the Workers
ii. We can work a Coastal Fish Resource very quickly, whereas another City could take a while to set up (say, it has a Pig Resource and we don't have Animal Husbandry or say it's Food Resource is at the far side of said City relative to our capital's location, meaning extra turns for a Worker to set up said Resource)
iii. We can get our Trade Routes up quickly (it could be a while to get a Road built to a City settled elsewhere)
Ideally, I think that we should have a Bronze-Working beeline plan in place that allows us to either:
A] settle an Oracle City that has a few Forests as City #2, doesn't cause too large of a drain on our economy, lets us get the Oracle there, and doesn't slow down The Great Lighthouse (that last bit is the key)
EDIT: Note that I say nothing about an Academy here, since the implication of putting the Oracle in a City other than Paris means that Paris can take a bit longer to finish the Great Scientist at a 100% chance whenever it is convenient to do so
OR
B] we have a plan in place that lets us get the Oracle, The Great Lighthouse, and a guaranteed Great Scientist using just Paris and Fish City (I'm not sure what the timing would entail--delaying the Oracle?)
While early Workers and/or Settlers are nice, if we can't meet at least one of the above two sets of goals, then our plan will need some work.
After I go with the "build an Academy, try to get Math and Priesthood quickly, and see how fast I can Chop the Oracle" test run, I want to go back to some Bronze-Working beelines to see if there's any way to improve upon the already great testing results that we've seen.
Mitchum said:
The reason I ask is that if we can research Mining first and still get a library ASAP, then I suggest that we research Mining now, get the lay of the land around the capital, and then our testing can reflect more options for where to settle City #2.
I know why you're asking and I see what you're trying to do (trying to get the game moving along), but Mining-first for a fast Library is just an inferior approach to the point that I wouldn't want to do it. I'd rather that we ensure that we have a Bronze-Working beeline approach that we feel comfortable meets our goals and just play ahead with that, than try to mix approaches and get an inferior result out of the bargain.
As I said, it's already really tight with Math->Priesthood for the early Library approach, so anything that makes it worse (like going Mining first) will throw the early Library option off of the table, as far as I am concerned.
Mitchum said:
We build the Oracle in city #2 while our capital cranks out the settler for Fish City, which goes WB -> LH -> GLH (or WB X 2). However, we really can't start testing this option until we do more scouting and find our awesome city #2 site.
We should probably pick a City #2 location in our test game that can reasonably exist in the real game and ensure that we can still get The Great Lighthouse in a reasonable timeframe.
Two locations for settling a non-Fish-City location for City #2 immediately come to mind:
a) By the two Flood Plains in the west, close to where you guys were settling, as we know that those two Flood Plains squares exist in the real game
OR
b) By the Forests to the north of Paris, assuming that with a Bronze-Working beeline, there will still be any of those Forests remaining (we'd probably Chop most of the Forests to the south of Paris for Paris itself)
Given the drain on our economy and the delay in settling Fish City, can we still get The Great Lighthouse at a respectable date? That's the challenge for the Bronze-Working beeline test runs.
If not, then concepts like:
a) We can settle by the Copper
OR
b) We can settle by a nice location like a Gold Resource + a Pig Resource
probably need to be immediately discarded from our plans (they can still be in our hopes, just not in our plans) and thus can't be perceived as benefits of going for Bronze-Working first.
On the plus side, if we do have a Bronze-Working beeling plan in place that doesn't require such a strong location for City #2 and then later in the real game we see a location with a Gold Resource a or Gems Resource (not counting a Jungle Gems Resource), we can run additional testing at that time to confirm that our plans will still work with the new location.
Alternatively, if we can't get that plan to work but have a workable Bronze-Working beeline approach that lets us still get a Great Scientist and the Oracle soon enough with a Fish City as City #2, but then if later when we playing we spot a stronger location for City #2 in the real game, we can again adjust our plans and run some testing to confirm that settling said stronger location as City #2 will still work.
Essentially, I'd like to see a plan that we're all happy with given the current knowledge of the map.
If we can't make it work, then we'll have to make some hard decisions, such as deciding whether to accept the risk of our first Great Person being a Great Prophet, then live with our decision when the outcome turns out to be not what we'd hoped for.
Building an early temple and running a priest in our Oracle city should make that possible at 100% odds and we should be able to time when it happens too.
nice testing, but it was a little overboard based on such limited map knowledge. While I haven't been contributing much to the discussion, I have been reading everyone's points.
