SGOTM 16 - The Shawshank Redemption

[ingentingg]

If we can figure out a way to have three cities, GLH and CS sling by T80 I'd be sold. With Math-enhanced chops and a bazillion forests available, it might be doable. Can I add that the Oracle be built in a third city to my list of desires?

I'll be back in the US on Friday and I'll run some tests then. Until then, I'm stuck on my work computer that takes 15 seconds to pan the screen a few hexes, which is pretty unplayable.

I might be able to pull it off using my magic wand, and beaker potions.
I really don't think that's doable, on such a commerce poor start. Since we don't have any map knowledge, we can't assume any nice second cities, but I guess we can assume one resource, and some forests.

Anyway, I don't even know if it is our strongest move
Industrious forges help our whole empire, and I don't see the capital being that great. I think I prefer TGLH over CS if I have to choose. But we can of course try.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I only had a brief time for testing but will make time for more late tonight around the same time or a bit earlier than when I posted. I went 2nd Settler before 2nd Worker, which probably makes sense here since working the Corn lets you quickly grow City 2 to Size 2, whip a Work Boat, and then already be working another strong square (Coastal Fish) plus have a Trade Route.

Building an Academy and self-teching Math MIGHT also be a possibility, if we just want to use Math for Chopping.

Even if we don't self-tech Math and don't Lightbulb it, it's possible that going for an uber-fast Academy will still work out better than Bronze Working first; it will make our Hammers tighter with the weaker Forest Chops, but since Research was our previous bottleneck, it may bring things back in line with each other, particularly if we keep the 2 Scientists hired in the capital after the Academy gets built, maintaining a base of 16 Flasks per turn, which would then be like a "free Palace" from the Academy giving us 8 more Flasks per turn (plus any prerequisite tech bonuses that you get for researching a non-first-level tech).

Another way to look at the problem is that:
a) We can Lightbulb Math for extra Hammers and use those extra Hammers to ensure that we have 3 early Cities and can efficiently Chop our Wonders
OR
b) We can get an early Academy and then stick with two Cities until after our Wonders are built (the City that builds the Oracle can already be starting on a Settler for the 3rd City), such that we'll have weaker Forest Chops, but we won't care as much about Great Person pollution anymore; we'll already have our Academy, so if we get a Great Prophet as our second Great Person, then we can go with the Theology Lightbulb without worrying about it too much. Theology is certainly a high-cost tech.

Early Civil Service is definitely very strong--stronger than an Academy itself, since Bureaucracy gives you a 50% bonus on your Commerce, not just on your Science, as well as on your Hammers, for a minor increase in Maintenance when your empire is small.

So, if we were to try and Oracle Civil Service, Lightbulbing Math would be a strong move, but we'd still need to magic-up some Flasks to learn Fishing, Sailing, and Masonry.

Building an Academy and keeping 2 Scientists hired and only sticking with 2 Cities and self-teching Math and Code of Laws, in addition to the techs for The Great Lighthouse might also be doable.

As long as we are realistic about our goals (such not trying for a third City if we build an Academy instead of Lightbulbing Math), then we can have some decent options available to us.

I would recommend that anyone doing some testing record at a minimum their build orders but also preferably the order of their Worker actions.

Chances are that those items will not change must from test run to test run, so once you've got them written down once, they'll be relatively easy to copy and paste for the next test run and then change them slightly.

Also, I highly recommend that you go into the main Civ menu (the one where you can exit to Desktop), Exit to Main Menu, Retire, Save the Game, etc--the menu found from the icon at the top-right of the screen next to the Civilopedia/Sevopedia icon when you have a test game loaded. There, choose the Your Details option and change the Leader Name for each test run. That way, you can save at various points and the saved game name will match that Leader Name value.

So, you might save the Leader's Name as "2Worker Settler" or something, and then later when you get a Great Scientist, you might rename it to "2Worker Set LightMath," etc. It makes keeping track of your saved games a whole lot easier.

Also, be sure to double-check that you're always playing with the TEST GAME.

I attached a reasonable effort at updating the test game. I think that I got all of the important squares; if a couple of fogged squares turn out to be wrong, it shouldn't really make a difference if we're not using any of those squares within our big fat crosses.


Remember that it can make sense to Farm the GRiv square, as I found having that square Farmed was helpful when I stole Paris' Corn, but that was only for a few turns, so we could also live with working 2 GFor squares for a bit to keep Paris from starving while having 2 Scientist Specialists hired and not working its Corn, if there's a better use for those few Worker turns.


Building an Academy or Lightbulbing Math don't necessarily mean that we have to aggressively go after Civil Service. That said, since we don't need Metal Casting to build either of our Wonders, it's very arguable that Oracling Civil Service would let us very quickly self-tech Metal Casting. Of greater concern is the fact that the techs for The Great Lighthouse and the techs for Civil Service don't overlap, so it still may make sense to Oracle Metal Casting safely, build The Great Lighthouse safely, and just leverage the early Scientist Specialists and early Great Scientist to get us Oracling Metal Casting and building The Great Lighthouse a bit sooner than we otherwise would, assuming that we can make up the Hammer deficit.

 

[mscellaneous]

I have plenty of time to run tests tonight. I will not focus on an early GS because I do not think this will give the most benefit.

My tests will focus on:
1. early 2nd city
2. GLH in 2nd city
3. Oracle in Paris (MC)

 

[ingentingg]

I have tested oracling CS, and building TGLH. All turn references are from the log. (One turn before the popup ingame).
It's doable, but someone have to execute better than I do, to make it worth it.
Tech path:
pottery - library - mining - bronze working - fishing - mysticism - meditation - priesthood - Code Of Laws - bulb Math - CS - sailing - masonry.

Bulbed Math on turn 58. Founded Conf, and build oracle on turn 71.
Build TGLH on turn 82.

Build order in Paris was:
worker - warrior - library - settler (chopped) - warrior - worker - oracle-

Build order in Orleans:
work boat - library - lighthouse (whipped) TGLH.

Farmed corn, cottaged floodplain + river grassland, and mined plain hill. Chopped forest on hill and mined it. mined grassland hill. Chopped 3 forests into oracle, and 4 into TGLH.

Had the two standard cities. 2 workers, and 4 warriors. Must delay TGLH by some turn, and make a detour via hunting - archery (3 turns) to be able to defend agains the barbs, unless there are copper in bfc.

Problems: It takes the capital forever to get big, and really contribute. We are underdeveloped with only a few cities. If the land close by is good, I much prefer more cities, than just a good capital. If we have more cities ready when we build TGLH, they also add a lot of beakers.

 

[ingentingg]

I was also able to oracle CS without bulbing math. Went Math after BW. Used GS for academy.
Finished Oracle on turn 73, which I think is too late. Discovered COL on the same turn. can then build TGLH around turn 80. Depending on wether we need archery. Seems like the barbs start beelining cities around turn 75. Happens in all my tests at least.

Although this approach is also possible, I'm not comfortable with the date of Oracle, nor the general state of our empire. The advantage (or disadvantage) is founding a religion (less natural spread of other religions) and CS. Being able to farm anything, is also great.
But we seriously lack any production.

If we go for MC and TGLH, (maybe bulb math) we can farm, use the whip and play more safely. Then we can also fit in Animal Husbandry, or hunting if we have resources for it. If there are a lot of coastal cities, and we have bronze, Colossus is also nice.

 

[cas]

I'll try a couple of test runs after work tonight.

cas

 

[mscellaneous]

Here are the results of my test up to T82:
3 cities
3 workers
2 workboats (1 for fish, 2nd starts scouting on T57)
5 warriors, fogbusted with 3 warriors. No barb problems at all, of course this means nothing!
1 Great Person (scientist on T73, on T72 GPP odds were 85% GS, 15% GP)

Tech path: Mining, BW, Fishing, Pottery (AH will take 2 turns more), Writing, Myst, Med, Priesthood, Sailing, Masonry, CoL (in progres)

Oracled MC on T66 (1400BC)
Build GLH on T82 (*)

Paris build order:
Worker - warrior - settler - warrior - worker - granary - library (finished T55) - warrior (partial) - Worker (partial) - Oracle - finished Worker - finished warrior - Forge - Pyramids (in progress for 3 turns)

Orleans (build T37):
Warrior - workboat (whipped) - warrior (never finished) - settler - Lighthouse (whipped) - GLH (whipped)

Lyons (build T73):
Granary (in progres)


1st Worker actions:
- Farmed FP very late (finished T58), I think the payback (+1 Food) for 7 worker turns (not counting movement) is pretty marginal. Especially early in the game where worker turns are very scarce
- Farmed corn, mined northern PH, chopped 1 forest for settler then started building roads for Orleans (which was settled on the same turn the settler was build)

Notes:
(*) I (pre-)chopped a lot of forests between Paris and Orleans for Oracle and GLH. This was a mistake as these foreests are need solely for the GLH. For GLH I only had 3 forests left, this could have been 4. If I had 1 more forest for GLH I think it would been build 2-3 turns earlier. Forests for Oracle (3 chops in my test, I think) should come from north of Paris.
- I never whipped in Paris, though I build a granary. Because research is so slow (because of the late library), there is not much else to build. So I want to re-test this with a different tech path.
- I was a bit sloppy with build orders in Paris (lost some hammers on a warrior in the queue) as well as Orleans (started a warrior whcih I never finished). So there is much room for improvement.
- If we build barb defense (assuming we have copper / horses) then production in Paris / Orleans could be slowed for some turns as well.
- I did not make use of the forested plains hill tile west of Paris (in my games a forest grows at T6); never worked / chopped / mined it. Please make sure that you do the same in your tests as this is not guaranteed in the real game

Attached is my test save on T82 as well as an Excel-sheet (also in .csv format) with detailed build / worker orders for each turn.

Edit:
It is getting late but did a quick test nonetheless. Dhoom's idea is very interesting as it is an approach I would normally never consider in my offline games.
Tech path: Mining (!) - Pottery - Writing - Fishing - BW - Myst - Med - Priesthood (finished T59)
Finished library on T38, got a GS on T56 as well. It seems that researching Mining before Pottery / Writing does not delay the GS.
Downside is that Orleans is settled on T52 (versus T37). Bulbed Math, we could chop a workboat instead of whipping it, saves a turn of anarchy for now. But think it is better to keep the forests for GLH.

Stopped playing at T59, will continue tommorrow.

 

[Mitchum]

Excellent testing, gentlemen. Now you see how OSS always fell into the "trap" of doing a lot of early testing. This game doesn't have such an obvious opening once we start looking at the different options...

Mining -> Pottery -> Writing vs. Pottery -> Writing -> Mining: I'm not sure how soon you build your first mine, but if researching Mining last still gets it in time, that option may be very slightly better because if we meet other AI(s), we're more likely to get bonus beakers on Mining so the later we research it the longer we have to meet an AI that has researched it. We're likely talking about one extra per turn, but it all adds up, especially in the beginning.

Without testing, it seems better to build settler #2 before a library in the capital. If you build the library first, you feel compelled to hire two scientists right away which delays settling city #2 that much more.

I won't be able to do a comparison spreadsheet between the different options for another 40 hours or so. If someone else has the inclination to do so before then, it would be good to track tech path, builds/infrastructure in each city, forests chopped, city output at end of test (i.e. pops, food, commerce, hammers), turns played, etc. Most of this can be figured out if everyone uploads their saved games.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Removing a Forest in the World Builder
If a Forest grows in the test game, you can simply pop into the World Builder and remove it.

1. Top right of your screen's main menu -> World Builder
2. Map Mode icon (bottom row, 3rd from the right side, in the World Builder top-right list of icons)
3. Terrains tab
4. Click on a Forest icon (it will get highlighted in a yellow outline)
5. Right-click on the Forest to delete it
6. Click on the Exit World Builder icon (rightmost icon in the top row of the top-right list of icons)


A Minor Point in regards to Civil Service
Fast Civil Service WOULD give us the chance to irrigate our capital's Corn that much sooner, which, given our small amount of Food, would not be too shabby.

That said, settling even one more City would let us work another Resource that would be stronger than +1 Food.


Slightly Updated Test Game
After peeking at mscellaneous' test run, I realised that we had met multiple AIs. That fact could make us artificially have faster research than we'll have in the real game. So, I edited the test map to isolate us, but left us with a lot of land that the Barbs could spawn in. With no AI units to act as a buffer, we will likely get a worse scenario than the real game (how can we steal Iron Working if we're isolated?), but better to get less Flasks and have more Barbs in the test game than to have the opposite and be unprepared when playing the real game.

 

[ingentingg]

Here is a possibility which I don't have time to test this weekend.

Research:
pottery - writing -mining -bronze working - math - etc
(Or mining first, if that is indeed best)

Idea is to run two scientist and build academy. Probably have one/two early cottages on riverside grassland in capital.

Then build oracle and pick Metal Casting, and build TGLH.
This should allow us to build Oracle around turn 65, since we don't have to wait to research Col. After we have researched math, we don't have to run two scientist, and can focus more on building settlers /workers and military. It also allows us to pick up animal husbandry /hunting or archery, before we go for the TGLH. After this we can self research COL if we really want our own religion.

I'm away this weekend, but I definitely think we should decide on a first tech on friday, so Dhoom can play on saturday, and people can test more on sunday, with more information.

Like I said before I think CS is too risky, with not enough reward. The capital is not super, and it really hampers our initial rexing.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Mining or Pottery first?
Well, obviously, if we're going for Bronze Working as our second tech, Mining-first is the way to go.

However, if we're going for a fast Library, then it looks like Pottery-first is the way to go.

Thus, until we decide whether we want the fast Chopping or the fast Library, we can't pick our first tech.

Here are the results of my initial test runs for answering the question of "Do we research Pottery or Mining first when going for a fast Library?":

Writing first
Tech path: Pottery -> Writing -> Mining -> Bronze Working
Turn 37, 2520 BC Stats
City Size 4, 24/28 Food
0 Hammers in any build item
Built Warrior 2 and a Library
72/187 Flasks in Bronze Working

Mining-Writing
Tech path: Mining -> Pottery -> Writing -> Bronze Working
Turn 37, 2520 BC Stats
City Size 4, 11/28 Food (-13 Food)
11/15 Hammers in Warrior 3 (+11 Hammers)
Built Warrior 2 and a Library
Flood Plains square needs 4 turns to be Farmed
Growth is limited to 2 Food per turn until that FP gets Farmed
67/187 Flasks in Bronze Working (-5 Flasks)

Using both paths, we built the Library on the same Turn, Turn 37, 2520 BC.

Possible minor variations to try:
1. For the Writing-first Scenario: In 2840 BC, we completed Warrior 2. In the Pottery-first scenario, we could instead try building the Library before completing Warrior 2, using the Writing first BC-2960 Writing--Mining.CivBeyondSwordSave saved game.

2. For the Mining-Writing Scenario: After building the first Mine, we could send the Worker directly to the second PH square to get the Mine 1 turn sooner. I don't think that it will matter, as we can always work the PHFor square for one turn, so it's only a difference of 1 Hammer. Instead of losing 1 Worker action to movement, I used two Worker actions to build partial Roads, which meant getting the Mine 1 turn slower but bought us 1 extra Worker action in a useful area (the Road toward Fish City). I'm pretty sure that this extra Hammer won't help, but to check I'd use the Mining-Writing BC-3080 Building the Mine.CivBeyondSwordSave saved game.

I'll have to do that checking tonight (unless someone else does it before me), but it looks like Pottery-first is the clear winner for a fast-Library approach, given that our goals are:
Primary Goal: Library ASAP
Secondary Goal: Bronze Working ASAP

The big difference seems to be that not having that Flood Plains square Farmed early on really hurts us, as we only use the Mines for a short period of time but we are constantly working that Flood Plains square. So, the extra turns that need to be invested to Farm the Flood Plains square appear to be worthwhile.

Meanwhile, going for Pottery-first only has us waiting 1 turn before we can Farm the Corn -> Farm the Flood Plains square -> Mine the PH square (with some minor Road building mixed in there to gain some free Worker actions). That 1 turn doesn't seem to matter as we have the PHFor square available to work prior to having the PH square Mined, meaning only a difference of 1 Hammer.

The first possible variation to try is the one that interests me the most; if we can get the Library out even a turn sooner, then it will be worth it to delay the completion of Warrior 2.

Note that I documented the Worker actions and other important changes right inside of the saved games using signs (Alt + s).

It will be nice to get an "early Library" test run that we're happy with to compare against an "early Bronze Working" test run that we're happy with, given similar goals (such as Oracling Metal Casting, building The Great Lighthouse, and getting 1 Great Person), so that we can fairly compare the approaches.

pottery - writing -mining -bronze working - math - etc...
Idea is to run two scientist and build academy.

That's a neat idea. I wonder how much it might delay our Oracling of Metal Casting and whether or not we'll need to fit Fishing in there before Math.

We definitely need to test it.

Idea is to run two scientist and build academy. Probably have one/two early cottages on riverside grassland in capital.

I'm not convinced that we can afford to run Cottages if we build an Academy. We'll already have slowed our REX by going for the early Library and Scientist Specialists. At that point, being at a Hammer deficit, every Hammer (say, by working a PH Mine instead of a GRiv Cottage) will help out in getting us our Settler for City 2, our additional Workers, and the Oracle itself.

It'll be worth it to at least try a test run with Cottages, but I have a feeling that we just don't have enough time or citizens to work them, especially given that we will be hurting more for Hammers at that point.

That said, if we can speed up Math by 2 turns or something, it may be arguable that the extra Chopping Hammers from completing Math a bit sooner could help to make up for working a GRiv Cottage square or two.

 

[Mitchum]

I haven't tested the CS sling yet. The only reason I brought it up was due to the talk about bulbing Math. In principle, I'm against bulbing Math without shooting for CS. If CS is too risky, an academy makes more sense to me.

If we're not building early granaries, does AH make more sense than pottery for safety? If we self-research Hunting (without camp resources) or Archery, that's us stepping off the podium before the game begins. The top teams will not spend precious early beakers on these techs and we'll be behind by 15 turns right out of the chute. One benefit of Mining -> BW its that it points us toward AH if there its no Copper.

Edit: cross post with Dhoom.

 

[mscellaneous]

I did another test with the new test game Dhoom prepared. I did even better: Oracle 1 turn earlier, GLH 4 turns earlier, only 2 cities though..

Here are the results of my test up to T78:
2 cities, 1 settler build & underway to 3rd city site
3 workers
2 workboats (1 for fish, 2nd starts scouting on T56)
7 warriors, fogbusted with 4 warriors (lost 1 to a lion).
1 Great Person (Great Priest on T70)

Oracled MC on T65 (1440BC)
Build GLH on T78

Tech path: Mining, BW, Fishing, Pottery, Writing (finished turn 50), Myst, Med, Priesthood (finished turn 61), Sailing, Masonry, Hunting, Archery

Met Monte on T61, so research up to and including Priesthood was done being isolated.

Paris build order:
Worker - warrior - settler - warrior - warrior - worker - library (finished T55) - Worker (partial) - Oracle - finished Worker - settler (whipped) - archer

Orleans (founded T38):
Workboat (whipped) - warrior - workboat (whipped) - library - warrior - Lighthouse (whipped) - GLH (whipped)

Notes:
- We can research AH or Hunting + Archery before Sailing from T62 on which is not too risky barb-wise. I am pretty confident we can still GLH. Minor barb skirmishes until T65
- Build some extra warriors for fogbusting as you can see.
- Chopped a lot of forests, there is only 1 left in Paris BFC.


I still think this is a pretty strong opening and at the moment still favor it above Pottery - Writing first. Also I am also not very keen on getting Math early (bulbing or research) for a couple of reasons:
a. we have plenty of production in Paris with the forests and 3 PH, besides most of the important early buildings (library, Oracle, GLH, possibly forge) are sped up by our traits.
b. Math opens up some additional research / Oracle options which are all not too exciting IMO: Currency not really needed assuming we get GLH, Oracling CS is out of our reach, Calender is ok-ish with the silk.
If we would get a GS I would build an academy over bulbing Math, even with our low commerce capital, I think.

Nonetheless, I will try a Pottery - Writing opening with the new save.

Addendum:
Dhoom, I saw your new tests. What I am missing is a date when you expect to have our 2nd city founded. For me the first priority is still getting a 2nd city up ASAP, regardless of going for GLH or not.
Apologies for bold text but I think we are losing our focus a bit on the primary goal of these tests.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't think that we can sneak Animal Husbandry into our tech path early on

If we're not building early granaries, does AH make more sense than pottery for safety?

Given that it looks like there are at most 3 AIs with Coastal capitals, I am less worried about the date of The Great Lighthouse than I am about the date of the Oracle.

It was mentioned that researching Animal Husbandry takes 2 turns longer than Pottery. If that's true, that's 2 turns slower to Oracling Civil Service.

If we Oracle Metal Casting, then we'd still need to research Pottery anyway, since Pottery is a prerequisite tech of Metal Casting. So, in that case, you'd be potentially delaying the Oracle date there, as well (I haven't confirmed it with a test run, though).

Those are the main reasons why we're going for Pottery instead of Animal Husbandry.

Yes, having a Grassland River Horse square to work (such as at the GRiv location 1NW of Paris that I predicted will contain a Strategic Resource if kcd_swede tried to balance out the starts across SGOTM teams) would be nice, but if we don't get such a square, then what do we do?

We're still going to settle Fish City as City #2, so I think that research on Animal Husbandry will just have to wait.


After we grab the Demographics data from the turn where Creative Civs' Cultural Borders expand and the turn where non-Creative Civs' Cultural Borders expand, we should be able to have a reasonable guess as to whether there are more than the 3 possible AIs that the Demographics currently indicate could have coastal capitals.


We could arguably try to fit in Animal Husbandry after learning the Oracle's techs but before learning The Great Lighthouse's techs, but since we're talking about building an Academy and sneaking in Math, I don't see it being all that practical to also sneak in Animal Husbandry.

If we self-research Hunting (without camp resources) or Archery, that's us stepping off the podium before the game begins.

Your assumption about Hunting with no Hunting Resources could be equally applicable to Animal Husbandry with no Animal Husbandry Resources.

Given my pre-game prediction that we won't see either Copper or Horse Resources nearby, it could also be seen as a "waste" to self-tech Animal Husbandry, PARTICULARLY since it's a tech that AIs do not see as being a monopoly tech. Thus, once you learn Alphabet, as long as the AI's Attitude is high enough to be willing to trade non-monopoly techs (that's the case for most AIs, although AIs like Shaka, Ragnar, and Toku need you to get them up to Pleased before they'll trade any techs with you), then they'll happily trade away Animal Husbandry.

More realistically, we may still beeline the Oracle for Metal Casting but then put a pause on other build items to pump out a few more Warriors.

The loss of improvements due to Barb units pillaging can hurt us more than delaying other build items to put out a few more spawn-busting Warriors, particularly at positions that are far enough away to draw the Barb units directly at our Warriors standing in the field instead of toward our improvements.

One benefit of Mining -> BW its that it points us toward AH if there its no Copper.

I don't think that we can consider sneaking in AH, since going Mining -> Bronze Working implies that:
a) We're not getting an early Library, so our tech path has to be extremely tight
AND
b) We're Oracling Metal Casting, meaning that we need Pottery

Thus, by the very nature of going for Mining -> BW first, we're pretty much taking away any possibility of sneaking in Animal Husbandry into our tech path anytime soon.

After getting Priesthood, it looked like there was a window to go for either AH or Hunting -> Archery, but by then, a Pottery -> Writing -> Mining -> Bronze Working path will have also already discovered whether or not we have Copper and can equally point us toward AH.

 

[Mitchum]

Unless we go for an ultra-early library (which I don't support), researching Mining next seems to keep all options open.

By looking at the build queue in the last test run, I don't think we HAVE to settle city #2 on the coast, especially if we find a better spot (i.e. high-food or gold or copper, etc.) that speeds up our REX and/or research. It's best not to get tunnel vision this early in the game...

Edit: Oracle in city #2 and the GLH in city #3 would be great to avoid GPP pollution.

 

[ingentingg]

Unless we go for an ultra-early library (which I don't support), researching Mining next seems to keep all options open.

By looking at the build queue in the last test run, I don't think we HAVE to settle city #2 on the coast, especially if we find a better spot (i.e. high-food or gold or copper, etc.) that speeds up our REX and/or research. It's best not to get tunnel vision this early in the game...

I agree

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Tests that I would like to try

Dhoom, I saw your new tests. What I am missing is a date when you expect to have our 2nd city founded. For me the first priority is still getting a 2nd city up ASAP, regardless of going for GLH or not.

That's a fair point, but I fell asleep before I could get more testing in. So, I just decided to post my partial results rather than not posting anything.

What I do want to try is:
a) Early Library, Great Scientist ASAP, Build an Academy
versus
b) Early Library, Great Scientist ASAP, Lightbulb Math
versus
c) Early Library, second City ASAP, Build an Academy
versus
d) Early Library, second City ASAP, Lightbulb Math

For any of those scenarios, the faster that we grow our capital to Size 5, the better (while still working decent squares like the P Silk before a GFor square). That fact is why I wanted to determine whether to go for Pottery or Mining first, to ensure that when running those 4 scenarios, I was working from the best possible start.


Now, another important variable to consider is that if we decide to go Library -> Settler without hiring any Specialists -> hire Specialists after the Settler has been completed, then the Library can afford to be delayed a couple of turns in favour of growing to Size 5 faster.

This point would apply to scenarios c) and d) above, in that we would work GFor squares in favour of working PHFor or PH Mine squares while building the Library, such that we'd try to grow to Size 5 ASAP while hopefully completing the Library the same turn as growing to Size 5 or a turn later than that. That's why I provided earlier versions of my saved games; for scenarios c) and d), I would not continue from the "Writing first BC-2520 Library built.CivBeyondSwordSave" saved game but would instead need to go back to the "Writing first BC-2960 Writing--Mining.CivBeyondSwordSave" saved game and play around with which citizens are assigned to work which squares in Paris.


The big outstanding questions in my mind are:
A] Can we actually fit in Math into our tech path if we get an early Academy?
i. If yes, then the extra Hammers will help out a lot for the lack of earlier Hammers.
ii. If no, then will the early Library and Academy help us out sufficiently by reducing our research bottleneck, or will we just end up having a production bottleneck (I'm mostly talking about Wonders here) take its place?

B] By going for an early Library, will we be hurting too much in terms of a lack of Warriors/Workers/an exploring Work Boat?

C] Are we willing to take the risk of getting an early Great Prophet?
i. If yes, then what do we do with it and do we risk generating a second one by hiring Scientist Specialists in the capital for a second Great Person?
ii. If no, then can we get a third City out soon enough to Chop the Oracle in it? There are plenty of Forests to the north of our capital that could be used for such a purpose.

D] If we Lightbulb Math, can we use the extra Hammers from Forest Chops to get a couple of Cities set up running Scientist Specialists pretty quickly?

I did another test with the new test game Dhoom prepared...
Met Monte on T61

Oops, I guess that Monte got out an exploring Work Boat. I should have used the World Builder to add a couple of Coastal Ice blockades to prevent such a possibility.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like you sent out an exploring Work Boat and picked up some foreign trade routes. Doing so in the real game, as long as a Barb City does not block us, is a decent idea.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, we could get a Library on Turn 36, but it doesn't really help much because we have to stop working the Farmed Flood Plains square for one turn to work a PFor square and then take even longer to grow to Size 5.

Instead, I think that on Turn 37 we will complete the Library, hire 1 Scientist and work the Silk to grow to Size 5 in 1 turn while building some placeholder build item like a Granary, and then the next turn can switch the Silk to a Scientist and can work the PH Mine at Size 5, building a Settler.

Instead of Mining the north-west Mine (NW + W from Paris), we move next to the north-east Mine (NE + N from Paris) on T30 and then start Mining it on T32.

Doing so puts us in position to next build a Road on the G Corn and then on the square where we'll settle Orleans.

As a result, our GRiv Farm comes late, but Orleans gets settled 1 turn faster, giving us 1 turn more of working the Corn in Orleans, 1 turn where we have to work 2 GFor squares plus the Flood Plains Farm in Paris (instead of a GRiv Farm and a Silk), which ends up being net-neutral.

Then again, what I found was that it made sense not to build the Road where Orleans is located, as we can just use that turn for Revolting to Slavery.


Possibilities:
A] Faster Great Scientist
T37: Corn, FP, Silk, PH Mine = grow in 1 turn, Warrior in 1 turn with 7 overflow Hammers coming out of it
T38: Size 5: Corn, FP, PH Mine, 2 Sci = Bronze Working in 4 turns
T42: Learn Bronze Working
T44: Chop 1 goes into the Settler
T45: Fishing is learned
T48: Chop 2 goes into the Settler
T49: Settler 2 is built and settles on this turn, since we prebuilt a Road. Alternatively (better, I think) we don't built a Road on the Orleans square itself and don't settle until 1 turn later, but we revolt to Slavery during this turn, so we don't actually lose a turn after all.
Results: Settle on T49. 13 overflow Hammers going into a Worker. 101/390 Flasks in Math. 66/100 GPP.
... playing roughly from this point on
T60: Math
T68: Priesthood
With a bit of pre-Chopping, we could get the Oracle very quickly in a third City.

B] Faster City 2
Corn, FP, Silk, PH Mine = grow in 1 turn, Warrior in 1 turn with 7 overflow Hammers coming out of it
T38: Size 5: Corn, FP, Silk, PH Mine, PHFor = Bronze Working in 4 turns (to be learned on Turn 45)
T40: Corn, FP, Silk, PH Mine, 1 Sci = save 1 turn on Bronze Working
T41: Corn, FP, PH Mine, 2 Sci = save 1 more turn on Bronze Working
T43: Learn Bronze Working
T43: Corn, FP, Silk, PH Mine, PHFor = Fishing in 5 turns
T45: Chop 1 goes into the Settler
T46: Settle now (or else don't prebuild the Road and settle on Turn 47). 8 Hammers of overflow into a Worker. 45/62 Flasks in Fishing. Only 15/100 GPP.
T46: (I won't revolt to Slavery yet to keep the comparison fair.) Corn, FP, PH Mine, 2 Sci
T47 Settled City 2 (this way, we had enough Worker turns to JUST finish our GRiv Farm, which means that we can work the GRiv Farm + Silk while City 2 steals the Fish
T49: 20/60 Hammers in Worker 2 (14 turns to go at 3 Hammers per turn, minus Forest Chops). 54/390 Flasks in Math. 33/100 GPP (12 turns to go). 10 Food and 2 Hammers in City 2.

The biggest differences seem to be that:
- By getting an early Settler, we can't go for Math before Priesthood, since we'll have less raw Flasks and we'll get our Academy too slowly. That said, Priesthood comes a bit late if we go for Math before Priesthood with a fast Great Scientist.
- Settling City 2 faster uses 1 Forest earlier and gets City 2 growing/producing a bit faster, but if we don't need that extra Food in City 2, it's hard to say how awesome it is.
- We seem to be far ahead Science-wise and Academy-wise by hiring the Scientists earlier, but if there is a Gold Resource or something that we want to settle by AND it has Forests (unlikely), we could get that City a tiny bit faster.

I was being a bit silly in that I could have saved up a bit more Gold pre-Academy to spend on a higher Science rate post-Academy.


Regardless of whether we go for Math pre-Priesthood or not, I like having a guaranteed Academy. So, one option could be to play around with the Great Scientist to appear around the time that the Oracle is built; given that we aren't going for early Math, we put more focus on Hammers, yet still generate our Great Person early enough to guarantee that it will be a Great Scientist.

Anyway, a lot more playing around and testing needs to be done but I am dead exhausted and can't do more until tomorrow night.

 

[Mitchum]

Where do we stand on going for library ASAP vs. city #2 ASAP? I've never built a library before settler #2, but at first glance I'm not sure that it's worth it. In general, I've found that the sooner you settle city #2 the better.

For me, the ideal situation would be that we find an awesome site for city #2 which doesn't have to be coastal but preferred to benefit from the GLH. Our build order in the capital is worker -> warrior(s) (grow to 2 or 3) -> settler -> library. We build the Oracle in city #2 while our capital cranks out the settler for Fish City, which goes WB -> LH -> GLH (or WB X 2). However, we really can't start testing this option until we do more scouting and find our awesome city #2 site.

So, does going Mining -> Pottery -> Writing completely mess up your tests, Dhoom? Do you have a strong feeling that a library ASAP (i.e. before settler #2) is the best way to go or are you just testing this option for completeness?

The reason I ask is that if we can research Mining first and still get a library ASAP, then I suggest that we research Mining now, get the lay of the land around the capital, and then our testing can reflect more options for where to settle City #2. I'm not convinced that City #2 has to be Fish City just yet but that's the only option we can test right now with what we know, which greatly limits our flexibility.

BTW, it's important to get the best start we can, but we need to figure out a way to play just a bit faster. At this rate, we'll really struggle to play 100 turns in 2 months.

Finally, without saved games, there is no way that I can compare testing options. If you have a save that you think looks promising, please post a save where you've completed the GLH and Oracle. Or, we research Mining now and then do more accurate testing after Dhoom's turnset.

 

[Mitchum]

I just ran a quick test. Based on my experience in that game with barb achers (7 warriors built and 4 lost), I think that Mining -> BW makes the most sense from a safety point of view. Hopefully we have copper around. I think we should go worker -> warrior (grow to 3) -> settler and city #2 should be founded near the copper or at least in a place with a minimum of 2 forests and food.

In my quick test, I settled city #2 on T38 to the SW of Paris, a city that had 2 FPs, PH and 2 forests. I'm sure we can find a better city than this in the real game, hopefully with copper. I chopped the Oracle here on T66 (1360 BC). I got a 100% GS in Paris on T68 (1280 BC). I founded Fish City on T67 (1320 BC). This is a bit late as going WB -> LH -> GLH would be very tight by T80 (875 BC).

In any event, barbs could be an issue and Mining -> BW at least gives us a chance to get a decent axemen barb defense up without having to research Archery or gamble on AH and horses.