SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[Revent]

Ramesses's capital is 1N16W of Brennus's capital. so a distance of 16.03 tiles
Our capital is 14N6E of Brennus's. so a distance of 15.23 tiles.

We are closer on the closest distance approach and we are closer (most likely) based on closest borders as well.

However, the war prob for Ramesses is much higher due to being annoyed.

 

[Benginal]

Question 1: Do all these fun declaring facts mean lead to the conclusion that if we don't get Brennus to pleased really soon he's going to declare war on us?

Question 2: Should we get hunting and put some archers in clams.

Question 3: Should we place a city on one of the grassland hills down there to soak up Brennus' attack, TMIT style.

Question 4: Can you code diggers go find out how long Brennus can stay in plotting mode before he either declares war or stops plotting?

 

[neilmeister]

1. Don't know for sure, the 2 sources of info don't agree with each other... but getting him from Cautious means he cannot start war plans against us, or be bribed into a war with us.

2. Trade for Hunting/Poly first, then assess if we can trade/steal/beg for Archery.

3. I would vote no, there is no guarantee he wouldn't still target Clams.

4. I'm trying..... but the code is a mess.

 

[neilmeister]

Actually, I think that we should agree to make the Hunting/Poly trade or not.

IF we agree, we should do it right now and then reassess our options.
The benefits are:
- Archery is the next cheapest tech, so the EP points required to steal it will become known.
- We can probably trade for Archery with Ramesses if required.

 

[Revent]

We can figure out the base cost to steal it via a test save regardless Neil.
It is time for me to sleep now, but if I happen to wake up early, (fat chance since its a Sunday and I start work at noon) I will run a test save keeping Brennus at cautious, waiting for him to get into WHEOOH mode, give him a million units and get him to pleased via wb and see if he declares.
But from memory, he does. I'll see if I can find my thread in which it happened.

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry for thread spamming.

Here is the code that seems to be relevant.

If Brennus has planned a limited war, nothing changes that plan except time.
If Brennus has planned a total war, then it is whole bunch more complicated, but it is a minimum of 20 turns, with power ratios having an influence.




int iTimeModifier = 100;
{
____int iOurPower = getPower(true);
____int iTheirPower = GET_TEAM((TeamTypes)iI).getPower(true);

____int iRatio = (1 + iOurPower) / (1 + iTheirPower);

____if (iRatio > 200)
____{
________iTimeModifier *= 100;
________iTimeModifier /= iRatio - 100;
____}

____iTimeModifier *= 50 + GC.getGameSpeedInfo(GC.getGameINLINE().getGameSpeedType()).getTrainPercent();
____iTimeModifier /= 150;
____FAssert(iTimeModifier > 0);
}

<snip>

else if (AI_getWarPlan((TeamTypes)iI) == WARPLAN_PREPARING_LIMITED)
{
____FAssert(canDeclareWar((TeamTypes)iI));

____if (AI_getWarPlanStateCounter((TeamTypes)iI) > ((5 * iTimeModifier) / 100))
____{
________AI_setWarPlan(((TeamTypes)iI), WARPLAN_LIMITED);
____}
}
else if (AI_getWarPlan((TeamTypes)iI) == WARPLAN_PREPARING_TOTAL)
____{

<snip>

____else if (AI_getWarPlanStateCounter((TeamTypes)iI) > ((20 * iTimeModifier) / 100))
____{
________AI_setWarPlan(((TeamTypes)iI), NO_WARPLAN);
____}


edit: x-post
Yes, its true we can deduce this from a test save. I suppose I was after a clue to whether Ramesses would trade Archery - if we needed it in a hurry -

 

[Deckhand]

If Brennus has planned a limited war, nothing changes that plan except time.
If Brennus has planned a total war, then it is whole bunch more complicated, but it is a minimum of 20 turns, with power ratios having an influence.

How do AIs decide between limited and total war?

 

[neilmeister]

....its extremely complicated, based on all kinds of factors like Power ratios, Financial stress, RNG rolls......

.....and my apologies, I haven't got time today to do this.

Safe to say, based on everyones actual playing experience:
- Brennus can DoW us at friendly if he planned it at cautious.
- War planning does decay (they change their minds)
- If we beg or give into a demand, we get 10 turns peace.
- We can only beg at friendly pleased

Therefore, revolt to Buddhism, get to friendly asap, beg anything for 10 tpeace, gift something for 10t peace??

 

[Benginal]

Are you sure we can't beg at pleased? Does that depend on the AI?

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry, I get Pleased and Friendly mixed up all the time.

Annoyed & Furious is a much better distinction.

 

[Benginal]

In that case, the general plan: switch to Buddhism -> do the tech trade -> beg something, Seems like a good idea.

Also, there's still a chance he demands we stop trading with Ramesses.

 

[neilmeister]

Very true. That would be ideal really.

The other benefit of making the trade and revolting to Buddhism now, before we do anything else, is that it will tell us if we are at Pleased, and if we are then we can beg for Archery next turn (I think).


EDIT: BTW, I am going to NZ tonight for work, and I won't get back until Thursday. I will be logging in, but it will only be in the evenings (NZ is GMT +12).

 

[Deckhand]

475 BC PPP draft turns 96 - ~108

General Strategy
Satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, Contact other AIs asap for GLH commerce = Bulb Astronomy (avoid Machinery and Code of Laws?)
Get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to Brennus
Radio from Liberalism
Culture and Domination victories

Turn 96
Goals: stay out of war w Celts, take barbarian cities, steal IW
Immediately Trade Sailing and Writing to Brennus for Hunting and Polytheism, switch to Buddhism [does this order make any difference?]
Tech: Aesthetics at 0% until some libs and academy are in [when to turn it back on??]; Literature

Great Person: If Scientist, build Academy; if Merchant, bulb Currency

Diplomacy: Switch to Buddhism immediately
Trade w Brennus; accept Brennus demands; do not accept Ramesses demands
Begging: beg for archery when we Brennus is pleased w us; otherwise tell me what to do (I never beg)
Espionage: all on Brennus, no slider (unless needed for IW steal)

City Builds [note, need more direction, not all cities have 10-12 turns identified; build any more forges?]
Paris: Chariot (2), Spy
GPF: Worker (2), Settlers
Production: Switch to Barracks, grows, whip, complete chariot (explore N w it), warrior (to spawnbust north), chariot [galley? Trireme?]
Commerce: Library (no whipping?)
Clams: Chariot (2), warrior (garrison), chariot (archers if possible)
Teoihuacan: Granary (chop plains hill), library
East Fish: Workboat (chop GH), Granary(whip), then?
Zhou: Granary (chop)
Q: what sh I build in our new cities and in what order?

Units:
WB6 explore northern isles, go N, then SE [Q: sail SW 1 tile first? Further west?] note, need optics to see more of HummBaby&#8217;s land.
WB3 explore Egyptian N coast (turn around when nothing more to see and sail S); sail into Elephantine and other cities as allowed by open borders [alternatively, turn around now and explore SE islands] [alternatively, net fish for Island Fish]
Warrior2 (woody) explore Peninsula South Coast (turn around when nothing more to see and walk S) [alternatively, go to Celtia to watch for Brennus stacks]
Chariot 1: go to island with settler, swap places with worker; Settler settles where it can use Fish (4E 1S of Zhou);
Other 5 chariots: group up and capture Teoi [Q: wait for 6th?]; then ferry to isle and capture Zhou
Spy: go to Tolosa wait 5 turns and steal IW (go straight there &#8211; IW may be discovered while it is waiting). Q: Archery first? (only if no IW available)
Worker1: finish roads Paris-Clams; then cottages for Commerce (Q: chop library?) mine commerce PH?
Worker2: get off boat, get on boat, chop grass hill, mine grass hill, cottage FP, mine PH
Worker3: finish mine, roads on gems and pigs [alternatively go S to spy on Brennus as early warning]
Worker4: finish mine, camp Production deer
Worker5 (GPF): camp GPF deer, cottage paris
Workers fromTeoi: chop granary, build roads, pasture pigs, mine PH

Stop Conditions: Brennus DOW on us (this cancels most of the PPP! Trade for archery from Rames); meet another AI; need a decision or advice
Pause Conditions: pause midway thru to review builds and discuss any occurences
Set duration: 10-15 turns, to a good stopping/handoff point;

Things we want to do in future but not immediately:
trireme to SE, settle copper isle
Future Cities: Teoi, East Fish, TBD islands, Copper Isle, other west coast spots?

Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
@Benginal: Signs in Post 881 State of the World are not in my save! Did you make them after submitting?
Note &#8211; I will update and repost the PPP per discussions and indicate items that are agreed to and which have Q&#8217;s

 

[neilmeister]

Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
@Benginal: Signs in Post 881 State of the World are not in my save! Did you make them after submitting?
Note &#8211; I will update and repost the PPP per discussions and indicate items that are agreed to and which have Q&#8217;s

Checking in...

I will never complain about Firefox ever again. It took me 45 minutes to write this, in between checking the save (and watching the F1), and just before hitting 'post' I got a blue screen of death. Reboot laptop, restart firefox, AND IT CACHED MY POST!!!!!

Nice PPP Deckhand. Can't see anything that you forgot. We need to avoid CoL for now (as it opens the Philo GS bulb), but not Machinery. We will need that for sure to get Optics. Machinery is a great GS bulb though.

I also noticed that the signs were absent when I opened the save, so it is not just you.

I feel that when we get the great person in 4 turns, we might have to stop to have a robust debate on what to do with it. I personally agree with what is written, Academy(Paris) or Currency. The gold makes it a little easier IMO to decide on what to do with a GS. We are > 70% likely to get a GM though. Not that I mind, Currency is a great bulb.

Most of this post is agreeing with you.

Techs:
Aesthetics when it can be done at 100%, same for Lit.

City builds:
Paris: Finish chariot, build another Chariot (our only barracks). Then a forge.
Production: Wouldn't worry about the barracks now, finish the chariot. Build a spy next. Then barracks or maybe even Colossus, even without Copper it is only 11 turns.
GP Farm: settlers until Lit, then Great Lib & National Epic.
Clams: No warrior, the Chariot is the garrison. Library(we have gems here) or archers(if possible).
Teoihuacan: rename it 'Barb City', its easier to type, and I think everyone will know what it refers to. 2 pop whip the granary, into a warrior MP. Then a Lib.
East Fish: then a Lib

Units:
WB6 find out more about that barb city first. Sorry, my last comments for WB predate seeing that mapmaker evilness city. If only to confirm if it is completely ice-elated.
WB3, I vote for further expolration of Ramesses, then the SW islands.
Woody 2, after going back and forth, I think the most prudent thing to do is keep an eye out for Brennus stacks on our border.
Worker 1: chop library is a good idea.
Chariots: Take 5 and go to Barb City. May the RNG gods be with you.
Take the survivors to the island, rinse, repeat

 

[ChrisShaffer]

We need two spies, minimum. Don't steal archery, save our EP for Iron Working. Don't use workers to spy on Brennus, instead use Woody and the second spy. We need to prioritize finding Brennus' stack(s). That's what I would like Woody to do.

No more whipping in Commerce unless it exceeds the happy cap by two, let it grow and work cottages. Would a forge in Commerce be worth it for the happy? Maybe whip one once we exceed the happy cap.

I am still not convinced that bulbing Currency is better than settling the Great Merchant. Hopefully we will get a Great Scientist to render the discussion moot. Rather than discuss it to death now, I suggest playing the turnset for four turns and stopping if we get a GM.

Someone should PM Benginal about the differences between the saves noted by Deckhand above. Deckhand should NOT play until this issue is resolved.

Do we have a test save?

 

[Revent]

Let's hope we pop a scientist so we don't need to worry about the GM (but my vote is still settle). In the case we do get a GM, I will do some calculations to see if it is worth it (or not).

 

[Benginal]

Hey all, so here's what happened.

1) I finished turn 95, hit end turn to start turn 96, realized I didn't know what to do with the tech tree after Alphabet was in, so decided to stop playing and saved.

2) Took a bunch of screenshots and realized some signs about what the workers were doing would be helpful. I may have also performed some REVERSIBLE actions (like checking a few builds, trying out different tech paths, etc). But I think this is okay

Let me know if I've done anything wrong and need to contact the mods.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Did you save after you did all that? If so, you can just upload the save. If not, you'll have to talk to the mods.

 

[Benginal]

Alrighty gang. I didn't save after the first time I got to turn 96. I've PM'd AlanH and I'll let you know when he gets back to me. Sincerest apologies for my absent-mindedness. :-(

 

[Benginal]

The good word is that the save looks okay. Sorry for this mix-up.

Anywho, back to the task at hand. Deckhand, the PPP looks good. I have a nit-pick that I think we should talk about as a group and I'm curious since I have this debate with myself in my offline games: Where are we going to cottage in Paris? The grassland tiles or the riverside plains? Eventually I imagine all of them, but what about short term?