SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
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Trystero
Deity
I guess if we have a lot of coastal cities, at some point the extra trade routes from Currency become more beneficial than the gold from the settled merchant. So the question is what is that # of cities.
Currency would also allow us to run merchant specialists to generate more GMs. We will need at least one more for Sid's Sushi.
Under Caste, a GM for Sushi shouldn't be an issue. In fact, we can actually prepare for this GM in advance by making him when there's a high chance of him being made and it's cheaper to do so (so if we don't get a GM, we can EASILY get another one) and save him for Sushi.
Well, I'll do some number crunching once the next four turns are played. It's better to work off of real data as much as possible after all!
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
We will have Currency soon either way. The question is whether currency sooner (say 15 turns faster) is better than settled GM bonus throughout the game. If we get the GM on turn 100 and bulb currency, we get +1 trade route per city immediately. If we research it manually we get that same +1 trade route on (say) turn 115. So we are comparing 15 extra turns of +1 trade route with 100+ turns of settled GM.
That is correct, plus the actual benefit of currency which ended up averaging to an actual gain of 3 beakers per turn as previously calculated.
SteelHorse
Deity
Its more complex than that, because we get every tech after Currency 15 turns sooner as well and we get the benefits of all of them 15 turns sooner. Not just currency.
For example, if we bulb currency instead of self research, we might on turn 100. If we were to self research we would get on turn 115. Then what comes next say CoL for example. If we bulbed currency, we could start CoL on t 100 and get it 15 turns sooner and then get the benefits of caste 15 turns sooner, and the we go onto CS 15 turns sooner and get the benefits of Bureaucracy 15 turns sooner. In effect, the entire tech tree is shortened by 15 turns. In addition, we get the trading benefit 15 turns earlier. Trades for currency at t 100 might be different than trades at t 115.
The question is "does a settled GM reduce the overall tech time by 15 turns from t 100 to the end of the game (say t 250).
Updates in blue font (deletions not shown)
hmmn, most of these changes were from neil
I will play the four turns late Monday night (pacific time) if I get 3 greens and no objections.
475 BC PPP draft turns 96 - ~108
General Strategy
Satisfy all game conditions in shortest time.
Build coastal cities, Contact other AIs asap for GLH commerce = Bulb Astronomy (avoid Machinery and Code of Laws?)
Get our continent to ourselves later, for now buddy up to Brennus
Radio from Liberalism
Culture and Domination victories
Turn 96
Play four turns, stop and discuss where to settle the great merchant.
Goals: stay out of war w Celts, take barbarian cities, steal IW
Immediately Trade Sailing and Writing to Brennus for Hunting and Polytheism, switch to Buddhism [does this order make any difference?] unanswered Q; also note that although getting him to pleased won't change his mind, it is still something we want to do asap
Tech: Aesthetics at 0% until some libs and academy are in [ turn it back on when can get Aes at 100%]; Literature [ditto]
Great Person: If Scientist, build Academy; if Merchant, maybebulb Currency alternatively settle [where?] we will discuss this bridge if/when we reach it
Diplomacy: Switch to Buddhism immediately
Trade w Brennus; accept Brennus demands; do not accept Ramesses demands
Begging: beg for archery when we Brennus is pleased w us; otherwise tell me what to do (I never beg)
Espionage: all on Brennus, no slider (unless needed for IW steal)
City Builds [note, need more direction, not all cities have 10-12 turns identified; build any more forges?]
Paris: Chariot (2), another chariot,then forge (assuming peace)
GPF: Worker (2), Settlers
Production: complete chariot, then spy, 2nd spy, then TBD (Colossus?)
Commerce: Library (no whipping until 2 unhappy faces, maybe a forge later)
Clams: Chariot (2), chariot (archers if possible)
Teoihuacan: 2 pop whip warrior, library (no granary?)
East Fish: Workboat (chop GH), Granary(whip), then?
Zhou: Granary (chop), then a library
Q: what sh I build in our new cities and in what order?
Units:
WB6 go west young boat, turn around at humbaba's ice, thenexplore northern isles, go N, then SE
WB3 explore Egyptian N coast (turn around when nothing more to see and sail S); sail into Elephantine and other cities as allowed by open borders
Warrior2 (woody) go to Celtia to watch for Brennus stacks
Chariot 1: go to island with settler, swap places with worker; Settler settles where it can use Fish (4E 1S of Zhou);
Other 5 chariots: group up and capture Teoi [Q: wait for 6th?]; then ferry to isle and capture Zhou
Spy: go to Tolosa wait 5 turns and steal IW (go straight there – IW may be discovered while it is waiting). Q: Archery first? (only if no IW available)
Worker1: finish roads Paris-Clams; chop commerce library (G woods to NE), then cottages for Commerce
Worker2: get off boat, get on boat, chop grass hill, mine grass hill, cottage FP, mine PH
Worker3: finish mine, roads on gems and pigs [alternatively go S to spy on Brennus as early warning]
Worker4: finish mine, camp Production deer
Worker5 (GPF): camp GPF deer, cottage paris [locations to be identified/discussed in updated PPP after 4 turns]Workers fromTeoi: chop granary, build roads, pasture pigs, mine PH
Stop Conditions: Brennus DOW on us (this cancels most of the PPP! Trade for archery from Rames); meet another AI; need a decision or advice
Pause Conditions: pause midway thru to review builds and discuss any occurences
Set duration: 10-15 turns, to a good stopping/handoff point;
Things we want to do in future but not immediately:
trireme to SE, settle copper isle
Future Cities: Teoi, East Fish, TBD islands, Copper Isle, other west coast spots?
Questions
See various alternatives above
What did I forget?
@Benginal: Signs in Post 881 State of the World are not in my save! Did you make them after submitting?
Note – I will update and repost the PPP per discussions and indicate items that are agreed to and which have Q’s
hmmn, most of these changes were from neil
I will play the four turns late Monday night (pacific time) if I get 3 greens and no objections.
SteelHorse
Deity
Yup - this was the point of trying to stay neutral for now. The problem is that he is saying "I have nothing to gain" instead of "we just don't like you enough". So not sure if even at pleased whether he would take on Brennus. And we don't have his religion yet to adopt to get those diplo points.
On the PPP.
Commerce does not need a forge (even for the
) - just library (whipped) and cottages.Teo - whip granary first imo.
What are we doing if we get a demand from Brennus to cancel trade with Rams? If we see a stack of Celtic troops headed for Rams?
Yup - this was the point of trying to stay neutral for now. The problem is that he is saying "I have nothing to gain" instead of "we just don't like you enough". So not sure if even at pleased whether he would take on Brennus. And we don't have his religion yet to adopt to get those diplo points.
On the PPP.
Commerce does not need a forge (even for the
Teo - whip granary first imo.
What are we doing if we get a demand from Brennus to cancel trade with Rams? If we see a stack of Celtic troops headed for Rams?
I think I'll have to disagree, half price forges will probably pay off in almost every city we settle early on
How about I don't do any whipping or chopping for Commerce in the next four turns? The worker won't be there yet and the pop doesn't support whip yet (not sure about in a few turns, although waiting for unhappy workers is best).
We can continue to discuss here. I think we will want both forge and library there.
edit, also even if Teo (aka Barb City) is captured, it won't be out of disorder in next four turns. So that decision can wait. neil suggested whip warrior into library, i suppose we need a warrior if surviving chariots are going across the water, but i too would like a granary.
We can continue to discuss here. I think we will want both forge and library there.
edit, also even if Teo (aka Barb City) is captured, it won't be out of disorder in next four turns. So that decision can wait. neil suggested whip warrior into library, i suppose we need a warrior if surviving chariots are going across the water, but i too would like a granary.
Happy with a granary/library in Teo (Barb City).
Also, just to add to the discussions regarding a Currency bulb/GM settle.
We aren't going to be researching Currency for a long time. If we go for the Astro bulb route (which I believe we should), Currency is a looooong way down the track, I would guess 30-40 turns.
.... and we can beg gold/trade for gold/build markets if required.
but I can handle being outvoted.
Personally, I wouldn't build a forge in Commerce until we have Gems connected.
Also, just to add to the discussions regarding a Currency bulb/GM settle.
We aren't going to be researching Currency for a long time. If we go for the Astro bulb route (which I believe we should), Currency is a looooong way down the track, I would guess 30-40 turns.
.... and we can beg gold/trade for gold/build markets if required.
but I can handle being outvoted.
Personally, I wouldn't build a forge in Commerce until we have Gems connected.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Green from me.
Trystero
Deity
Green from me.
Edit:
If I understand things correctly, Currency would give us (at least) an addition +1 commerce from trade routes in our existing cities (so +5
total) and we would get at least +2 from each additional city. If we captured the 2 barb cities, we would thus gain at least +9 from getting Currency (less whatever the additional maintenance costs). Is this correct? If so, it makes Currency seem like the better option than settling.
Edit:
If I understand things correctly, Currency would give us (at least) an addition +1 commerce from trade routes in our existing cities (so +5
total) and we would get at least +2 from each additional city. If we captured the 2 barb cities, we would thus gain at least +9 from getting Currency (less whatever the additional maintenance costs). Is this correct? If so, it makes Currency seem like the better option than settling.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Why do you come to this conclusion? +9 gold for 30 turns = 270 vs +6 gold +1 food for 100 turns = 600 + 1/2 person output for 100 turns....
I know the comparison isn't that simple, but it doesn't automatically follow that +9 gold is better than +6 gold.
All that said, I'm leaning more and more toward bulbing currency unless Revent's analysis proves something different. The free bulbs + extra turns of trade routes seem pretty darn strong.
Hey. Are we sure about the Academy in Paris? Once commerce gets to pop 6 I think it's going to match Paris for raw coins, yeah?
EDIT: Upon further review this is just wrong. I guess I just want to discuss something!! Somebody propose something outrageous like gifting the great merchant to Brennus for the diplo points!
EDIT 2: Actually, what are the diplo benefits for gifting great people? I know for regular units it's something really tiny like the equivalent of gifting the amount of gold of 1/4 of the hammers. (eg. gifting a 100 hammer unit is the same as gifting 25 gold). But I wonder what it is for great people?
EDIT 3: No worries. I'm not going to advocate gifting the great person.
EDIT: Upon further review this is just wrong. I guess I just want to discuss something!! Somebody propose something outrageous like gifting the great merchant to Brennus for the diplo points!
EDIT 2: Actually, what are the diplo benefits for gifting great people? I know for regular units it's something really tiny like the equivalent of gifting the amount of gold of 1/4 of the hammers. (eg. gifting a 100 hammer unit is the same as gifting 25 gold). But I wonder what it is for great people?
EDIT 3: No worries. I'm not going to advocate gifting the great person.
Trystero
Deity
Yeah, I was including the benefit of beaker-saving in my thinking as well. Also, trade routes generate commerce rather than gold. Not sure what differences that makes. Nevertheless I will concede your point that the increased commerce for 30 turns doesn't necessarily confer a greater advantage than the gold/food from the settled GM.
Hey. Are we sure about the Academy in Paris? Once commerce gets to pop 6 I think it's going to match Paris for raw coins, yeah?
EDIT: Upon further review this is just wrong. I guess I just want to discuss something!! Somebody propose something outrageous like gifting the great merchant to Brennus for the diplo points!
EDIT 2: Actually, what are the diplo benefits for gifting great people? I know for regular units it's something really tiny like the equivalent of gifting the amount of gold of 1/4 of the hammers. (eg. gifting a 100 hammer unit is the same as gifting 25 gold). But I wonder what it is for great people?
EDIT 3: No worries. I'm not going to advocate gifting the great person.
I was worried there for a moment.
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