SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

Cool.

Hammurrabi & Qin both have 10 cities, SB & Saladin have 8. So, there are 36 TR's to be had. Any city that has a harbor will get minimum +4, otherwise it will be +3.

The only relationship problem over there is that Saladin hates Hammu. I still think we should butter Saladin up with a tech, then OB with him. Do him first.

Then repeat with all other AI.

Saladin will no doubt make demands that we stop trading, the answer will always be NO.

1) So you want me to gift Saladin something? What are you thinking? Start cheap and wait until he'll open borders? Medi followed by Code of Laws? Or will any gift get him to cautious.

2) By repeat with the rest you mean just the open borders part yeah? No gifting techs to anyone else I presume?

3) Yes, we will ignore all demands. The other continent is in no place to demand stuff like that of us. They have no boats! :lol:

4) Where should I send the Buddhist Missionary? We can probably just use him as a scout. Or we could try and spread Buddhism to Qin or SB? Qin can get to +5 with religion, SB can get to +3.
 
edit: Qin has CS & Philo!!!!!

Haha, yep.

edit2: I have to do some work now, but we look great, and Brennus has neither MC or Monarchy yet... woot. He will have HA's, but a few spears will protect our stacks.

Yes. I'll get a few spears started when I remember.

Do you guys have any thoughts on trades. There's no rush to trade for Construction I don't think. But we should probably trade Lit for Ram's gold this turn.
 
1) So you want me to gift Saladin something? What are you thinking? Start cheap and wait until he'll open borders? Medi followed by Code of Laws? Or will any gift get him to cautious.

2) By repeat with the rest you mean just the open borders part yeah? No gifting techs to anyone else I presume?

3) Yes, we will ignore all demands. The other continent is in no place to demand stuff like that of us. They have no boats! :lol:

4) Where should I send the Buddhist Missionary? We can probably just use him as a scout. Or we could try and spread Buddhism to Qin or SB? Qin can get to +5 with religion, SB can get to +3.

1) I think Aesthetics should do the trick.
2) I would probably gift them all a tech, trade for Construction after geting OB with Saladin though. I can't see your screenies (firewall), but Hammu will trade Construction & gold for Currency.
3) Indeed!
4) Qin, as he has more potential to be our long term buddy. (and he might actually spread Budd as well)
 
I think this is a fantastic idea! ... I have to get back to that homework, :sad:

Excellent, I need to do some work, and there is so much to look at.
 
What sort of army are we hoping to attack with? I'm still scouting out Brennus. Sorry, meant to post that screenie. But in the two cities I've seen so far he has 3 units in both? I think. Anyway, he has 11 cities. And probably a stack somewhere, so we're looking at a lot of troops. Hopefully his stack is out near Egypt, so we may be able to take a few cities before his stack finds us and then let him attack us in a city. Anyway the units we will need

Maces - Core of our attacking force. I imagine these guys will go CR1, CR2, CR3, Combat 1
Xbows - I'd like quite a few of these as well for Mace protection. These guys will get promoted along defensive routes I think, depending on what we see coming.
Spears - A handful of these guys 3/4 I think should do it, to protect us from Horse Archers and maybe Elephants.
Longbows/Archers - For holding down cities after we take them. We may also leave a few xbows and maces in cities that are particularly vulnerable.
Chariots - I like to have a few of these guys on hand since they have two moves. They'll also be good cheap units to pick off any axes we see wandering around.
Catapults - Are we building any of these?
Trebuchets - Should be fantastic especially since it looks like Brennus and Rams won't have engineering for a while.
Super Medic: The chariot with combat 1 and medic 1 is currently exploring Celtia. But we'll have him rejoin the stack before we declare. I'm also okay with putting the general on a melee unit so we can do a super, super medic (medic 3 + woodsman 3).
 
Good to be thinking about this:

Our SoD will probably be composed along these lines.
5-6 Maces, all CR promoted
4 X-bows, mainly for stack protection, promote along Drill line, useful for offence or defence.
2 Spear should be fine, these are only for stack protection.
10-15 Catapults.

The Catapults will need to be replaced, at a rate of about 2-3 per city we conquer. Everything else is just for cleanup or stack defence, and shouldn't require replacing.

I would rather get going with Cats than wait for Engineering. Brennus has very sucky units.

Super-medic - definitely the Chariot, has 2 moves and will never defend.


edit: and I think that most if not all of our mainland cities should be whipped down to about 3 population in the next 6-7 turns. (including Production & Commerce). We need to be ruthless, and not allow Brennus any chance to regroup or get better units.
 
Great play Ben! :) :) :)

On the bright side, I think we can expect Rams to build us the AP since no one else has Theology at the moment!

We also need a naval scout, don't we? Brennus may have settled those islands as well!

I don't think complete elimination of Brennus can happen in one round. We can declare and ask for peace and he will still be pleased so won't plan for revenge. Thebes is all the way near Rams and taking a stack there will just be too much inconvenience in my opinion.

May I take the opportunity to suggest a combination of naval units as well for our attack on Brennus?

Ideal situations after war if we do an effective blitzkrieg:
T0-Durocorturm is ours
T1-Vienne, Verlamion and Camulodonum are ours
T3-Tolosa is ours
T4-Bibcarte is ours

With effective preparation and planning, we could possibly take 6 cities in 5 turns with 1 MP units (perhaps more if Brennus has settled more cities in between or if has a couple more down the coast can get to!) If it goes how I see it, all of our mini stacks could end up grouping together at Bibicarte and Vienne and then plough through further cities he has settled south near Rams.

In the best possible situation which will never happen, we can take all of his cities without ever seeing his stack :lol: (Although I do say never, if his stack is en route to cities we have captured, our naval units can sneak some units behind his stack whilst he is making was way to us or something along those lines). We do have galleons after all which we will need to build for a future intercontinental invasion regardless so building them now doesn't seem too bad! Also, the AI sucks with multiple war front anyway.

All cities near the bay of Benginal can be taken within the first 5 turns of war probably with galleon invasions.
 
Good to be thinking about this:

Our SoD will probably be composed along these lines.
5-6 Maces, all CR promoted
4 X-bows, mainly for stack protection, promote along Drill line, useful for offence or defence.
2 Spear should be fine, these are only for stack protection.
10-15 Catapults.

The Catapults will need to be replaced, at a rate of about 2-3 per city we conquer. Everything else is just for cleanup or stack defence, and shouldn't require replacing.

I would rather get going with Cats than wait for Engineering. Brennus has very sucky units.

Super-medic - definitely the Chariot, has 2 moves and will never defend.


edit: and I think that most if not all of our mainland cities should be whipped down to about 3 population in the next 6-7 turns. (including Production & Commerce). We need to be ruthless, and not allow Brennus any chance to regroup or get better units.

I will actually go against whipping Commerce at all. It will grow back way too slow and I think would be bad.

Edit: I think waiting for Engineering is better. It will let us plan more effectively and let us get everything sorted. :)
 
Ideal situations after war if we do an effective blitzkrieg:
T0-Durocorturm is ours
T1-Vienne, Verlamion and Camulodonum are ours
T3-Tolosa is ours
T4-Bibcarte is ours
.

I don't think we really care about Durocorturm & Camulodonum.

The real prizes are Tolosa, Bibcarte & Vienne. Our SoD should beeline these cities.

You are right that Verlamion is worthwhile to get, as it is lightly defended and can be taken by a mini stack.

Not worried at all about Thebes for now, or island cities. Once Brennus is 'broken' we can finish hm up at our leisure.
 
I will actually go against whipping Commerce at all. It will grow back way too slow and I think would be bad.

It will grow back faster than you think. At pop 4 for instance, it will have 6 surplus fpt, and with a granary, it will grow every 2-3 turns.

I can accept that we maybe don't want to whip it completely into the ground, it depends on the troop numbers we are generating.
 
Commerce is population 12 now. If we whip it down to 4, then even if we regrow at 1 pop per 3 turns, it would take 24 turns to reach 12 again. I don't think we can sustain that growth rate, and in the meantime our cottages aren't being worked... Do we really need those troops that badly?
 
... oh when I say 'gift' them techs, I really mean sell them techs way below the real value, we might as well hoover up all the cash around.
 
Last comment before leaving civfanatics for the night. I think we need an approximate test game. These next 20 turns will make or break our chances at laurels and it's been too long since I've 1) warred with these units 2) warred on emperor for me to feel comfortable without practice. I feel Neil's estimates of troops are too small and revents timeline is too fast. Although I do recall telling revent in s&t he couldn't pull off a chariot rush that he pulled of fabulously, so my judgment is obviously not great.
 
Great job Benginal:goodjob:

I think you should pause for a day for discussions.
I agree.

We need to plan 4 things:
1. War - where (attack path), what (composition of army), and when (bribe one of Brens/Rams on the other and wait for Brens to head south?).
2. Trades - Cash for Lit (120 from Rams looks great), Const for ??
3. Diplo - who should we try to make friendly as next trading partner after we take Brens on? Qin is a tech leader. Or Hammy? Open borders with?
4. Esp - what is our strategy to use? monitor tech or steal something.

Agree - no point on waiting for Eng and Trebs.
 
Commerce is population 12 now. If we whip it down to 4, then even if we regrow at 1 pop per 3 turns, it would take 27 turns to reach 12 again. I don't think we can sustain that growth rate, and in the meantime our cottages aren't being worked... Do we really need those troops that badly?

OK, I can understand the hesitation regarding Commerce.
Maybe we don't need to whip them all down to 4. Here are some rough calculations

With 1 turn invested in a Catapult (with lets say 5 hammers), we 2 pop whip it and get ~20 overflow into the next build, another Cat. The next turn we 1 pop whip it for ~5 overflow.

So, every 3 turns, we can produce 2 Cats, and lose 2 pop. (Obviously our Granary keeps growing, so most cities will regain 1 pop in the 3 turns)

X-Bows cost a little more (60), so with 1 turn invested, we can 2 pop whipwith not much overflow). So, 1 X-Bow every 2 turns.

Spears cost 35, so we can easily 1 pop whip it every 2 turns.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we do Cats in 3 cities (ie Clams, Paris & Commerce) for 6 turns, we get 12 Cats and they all lose 4 pop in each.

If we do X-Bows in Production & Barb City for 6 turns, we get 6 X-bows and lose 4-5 pop in each.

GP Farm can whip the 2 spears we need easily.

So, in 6 turns, we have the basis of our SoD. 12 Cats, 6 x-bows, 2 spears. Our cities will have shrunk 4 or 5 pop.
CS is in 4 turns, so some whips can be Maces instead.
 
Last comment before leaving civfanatics for the night. I think we need an approximate test game. These next 20 turns will make or break our chances at laurels and it's been too long since I've 1) warred with these units 2) warred on emperor for me to feel comfortable without practice. I feel Neil's estimates of troops are too small and revents timeline is too fast. Although I do recall telling revent in s&t he couldn't pull off a chariot rush that he pulled of fabulously, so my judgment is obviously not great.

Yes, this is fair comment.

We can add more cleanup troops, but all Brennus has are Axes, Archers, Chariots, Gallic Warriors and presumably a few HA's.

Our X-bows and spears will eat them for breakfast.

edit: on defence that is, on offence we will have enough cats to bombarb away defenses in 2 turns easy, then at most 2-3 suicide cats to collateral him to death, the rest of the Cats to be CR promoted and wear the defenders to maximum collateral damage, maces to stroll in.
 
It will grow back faster than you think. At pop 4 for instance, it will have 6 surplus fpt, and with a granary, it will grow every 2-3 turns.

I can accept that we maybe don't want to whip it completely into the ground, it depends on the troop numbers we are generating.

Put me in the no cottage whipping in commerce camp, I like the cottages growing.
If we get the 120 from Rams should be able to complete CS in 4 turns. What are we researching next?

I count about 13-15 whipped troops over 3 turns after CS and Constr. Add a couple more in the 3 turns leading up to CS. Some will need to come from the island and be boated over. Plus 4-5 turns to get to Tolosa cultural border.
So about 12 turns to attack. Is a stack of 15-17 enough? I think yes, assuming Brens is fighting on two fronts.

I agree on the war path neil proposed, "Tolosa, Bibcarte & Vienne". Right down the gut, split him in two, and the clean up the rest. We need roads for troop movement.
 
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