SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

We need to plan 4 things:
1. War - where (attack path), what (composition of army), and when (bribe one of Brens/Rams on the other and wait for Brens to head south?).
2. Trades - Cash for Lit (120 from Rams looks great), Const for ??
3. Diplo - who should we try to make friendly as next trading partner after we take Brens on? Qin is a tech leader. Or Hammy? Open borders with?
4. Esp - what is our strategy to use? monitor tech or steal something.

Trades, Agreed, sell Lit to Rams for sure, Const to Hammy is my pick, after we get OB with Saladin though.

Diplo, I want OB with all 4 of them. Saladin is the enemy though, he will no doubt close them again at sometime, as he will keep demanding and/or get upset that we trade with Hammy.
 
edit: on defence that is, on offence we will have enough cats to bombarb away defenses in 2 turns easy, then at most 2-3 suicide cats to collateral him to death, the rest of the Cats to be CR promoted and wear the defenders to maximum collateral damage, maces to stroll in.

Do we really need to suicide cats if we have CR maces and bombard the walls away?

EDIT: Core cities not on hills.
 
Put me in the no cottage whipping in commerce camp, I like the cottages growing.
If we get the 120 from Rams should be able to complete CS in 4 turns. What are we researching next?

I count about 13-15 whipped troops over 3 turns after CS and Constr. Add a couple more in the 3 turns leading up to CS. Some will need to come from the island and be boated over. Plus 4-5 turns to get to Tolosa cultural border.
So about 12 turns to attack. Is a stack of 15-17 enough? I think yes, assuming Brens is fighting on two fronts.

I agree on the war path neil proposed, "Tolosa, Bibcarte & Vienne". Right down the gut, split him in two, and the clean up the rest. We need roads for troop movement.

Commerce whipping
OK, but what about whipping away the plains & grass cottages? They are mostly new, and don't contribute a huge amount of coins.
We can lose a few pop and still be growing every 2 turns (+9 fpt if we lost between 2-4 pop)

Islands should still focus of whipping infra IMO, as we will want to switch to Caste in the not too distant future.
 
Fair enough about Commerce, although I'd still prefer to not have it whipped; perhaps to size 8/9. :)

Well, I personally don't care about those cities too much :lol: But if we can take them, let's go for it, although I'd be inclined to raze Durocorturm since it will be a crappy city until Biology and just be costing us a lot of money.

I think the idea is that we want to end this war as soon as possible so that it doesn't dent our economy too much.

Plus, the vastness of the land just means that it will take FOREVER to kill out Brennus. If we assume our units are going to take n turns to get to a certain point on the map, the galleon will get us there in 0.25n +2 turns (one to load and one to unload).

Since we will be aiming to take lots of cities in very few turns, there is a possibility we will not even see Brennus's stack! That's because the AI are REALLY bad at multiple fronts. (I've actually done this before, albeit on Monarch when I wasn't so good at Civ). It's very very effective since the AI don't know what to do and a unit spammer like Brennus will be confused as to where to send his units.

We will effectively be shortening the war by a very significant margin in my opinion. Our option to go by sea becomes stronger based on the formula I said above. If it takes 4 turns for our units to get from one coastal spot to the other, the galleons get us there 1 turn faster. A coastal city or one off coast will mean it's an overall tie. But imagine if the distance is increased to 5 turns or 6 or even 10?

For example: From Durocorturm to Bibicarte will take our soldiers 7 turns to take but by boat, it will take us a total of 6 turns. Edit: If we already have the galleons positioned correctly, we would actually have Bibicarte on t5 of the war whereas it would take us until at least t7 of the war assuming our units need more time to heal. Also, this means it will be more likely that brennus will send reinforcements over.

This continent is way too big for us to take it all by foot. If we are trying to just take a couple of his cities, in my opinion, that is inefficient play (because it will take too long and those extra turns we waste on war effort could have instead gone towards research) when we could actually take most of his cities within a handful of turns.

Obviously, it's not an area of comfort for most players (including me) since it requires a lot of micromanagement of the army we will build and can be very complicated and may not work as well as planned but I still think it will regardless be better than just doing the normal war which is screaming inefficiency to me! This method that I have will probably require less units as well and will not give Brennus the chance to get lots of units out.

Plus, researching Eng for Trebs unlocks quite a bit of stuff for us. Notre Dame which is an AMAZING wonder in a Sushi game and having Eng first means we are more likely to build it. :)

Anyway, my vote will still be for Engineering first as it will let us formulate a reasonable plan, and will result in less casualties. CR3 Trebs have around 40% odds against fortified riflemen in a city after all. I'd MUCH rather have those than suicide cats which is once again, very inefficient play. It may win us the war, but all those hammers went to waste. Trebs are more likely to survive and when they do, they can easily be upgraded to Cannons and CR3 cannons are very powerful.
 
Do we really need to suicide cats if we have CR maces and bombard the walls away?

EDIT: Core cities not on hills.

Good point, his defenders are so bad that we probably wont need to suicide as many Cats.

But he does still have Walls, and fortified bonuses, I would rather lose a Cat or 2 and damage the whole stack a little than risk the Maces.
 
The main goal now is to crush Brennus before he gets better units, and get that Shrine.

I don't suggest conquering him in 1 go, as long as we take the 3-4 core cities from him.

Galleons will cost us valuable hammers that should go into units. A road down the middle of the continent will be much faster than Galleons, especially once Engineering is in. Yes we will want a few Galleons to take out Ramesses, but that isn;t for a while yet.

Once we agree on the trades to be done this turn, we can see what techs are then available. Qin has engineering already.


edit: when I say roads/walking is faster, this is factoring in the 80 hammers required for each Galleon.
 
Fair enough about Commerce, although I'd still prefer to not have it whipped; perhaps to size 8/9. :)
OK - would not go below 9 and work high food tiles.

Plus, the vastness of the land just means that it will take FOREVER to kill out Brennus. If we assume our units are going to take n turns to get to a certain point on the map, the galleon will get us there in 0.25n +2 turns (one to load and one to unload).
If the core cities were on the coast I would agree but more of the key cities are in from the coast so you need to add in commute time. So my gut so just go right down the middle on foot.

Anyway, my vote will still be for Engineering first as it will let us formulate a reasonable plan, and will result in less casualties. CR3 Trebs have around 40% odds against fortified riflemen in a city after all. I'd MUCH rather have those than suicide cats which is once again, very inefficient play. It may win us the war, but all those hammers went to waste. Trebs are more likely to survive and when they do, they can easily be upgraded to Cannons and CR3 cannons are very powerful.
If we can trade for Eng after Constr, I agree. But waiting 10 extra turns to start the war seems like an awful lot.
EDIT: And no else even has Machinery, so it is unlikely to be tradable in our time frame.
 
OK - would not go below 9 and work high food tiles.

If the core cities were on the coast I would agree but more of the key cities are in from the coast so you need to add in commute time. So my gut so just go right down the middle on foot.

If we can trade for Eng after Constr, I agree. But waiting 10 extra turns to start the war seems like an awful lot.

Agreed, on all points.
 
OK - would not go below 9 and work high food tiles.


If the core cities were on the coast I would agree but more of the key cities are in from the coast so you need to add in commute time. So my gut so just go right down the middle on foot.


If we can trade for Eng after Constr, I agree. But waiting 10 extra turns to start the war seems like an awful lot.
EDIT: And no else even has Machinery, so it is unlikely to be tradable in our time frame.

I agree with SteelHorse's points as well.

One other thing I might recommend is a chariot accompany the stack to snag the odd Celtic work and to possibly bait Brennus into sending units out of cities.

Edit: I also agree with trading Currency to Hammy for Construction + gold.
 
But he does still have Walls, and fortified bonuses, I would rather lose a Cat or 2 and damage the whole stack a little than risk the Maces.
Fair point - What kind of odds does a CR1 Mace get against fortified archers, spears, and gws? If greater than 75%, it is worth losing 1 out of every 4 versus 2 cats no?
 
One other thing I might recommend is a chariot accompany the stack to snag the odd Celtic work and to possibly bait Brennus into sending units out of cities.

Good point - free up a couple of chariots with archers for garrison.
Will need some defense in WCS anyways. Maybe whip a CB to free up the chariot. And should bring one Tri on the west side just in case Brens has some galleys.
 
Also sell Med to SB(30) and Sal(20) for 50 gold plus any diplo it gets us.

Yes and no, I would like the gold, but we want to trade just once with Saladin to get the +4 'fair trade' bonus, to minimise the potential diplo negatives.

Do it in this order.

- Trade Ramesses Lit for 120g
- Sell Saladin a tech (I propose CoL, as both Hammy & Qin have it) for all his gold
- OB with Saladin.
- Sell Hammy Currency for Construction and all his gold.
- Trade Hammy clams for his crabs.
- OB with Hammy
- OB with Qin, don't sell him anything
- Sell SB meditation for all his gold
- OB with SB
- Trade SB clams & fish for his cow and rice.
 
Fair point - What kind of odds does a CR1 Mace get against fortified archers, spears, and gws? If greater than 75%, it is worth losing 1 out of every 4 versus 2 cats no?

Not sure on the odds myself, need to test.

1 in 4 Maces vs 2 Cats, yes you are right

but I will counter with:
maybe lose 1 Cat (it can have CRI to counter the fortification bonus), damage the whole defending stack so the odds are now 85% + for the Maces.


edit: but I still need to actually check odds.
 
And Sal 5gpt for Iron and Qin 4gpt fpr deer? Hurts health in commerce, but if we are whipping a bit in commerce, no problem.

We have +4 (inland) or +5 (with harbor) more health coming, from trades for crabs, cows and rice.

Happy to trade away Iron, and what about Sugar to Qin, we should be getting more
 
Sal is not worst enemy is he? Are there other negative diplos?

Not sure, he isn't an officail worst enemy, but he is at -2 with Hammy, so I'm not sure if hammy will be upset with us.


edit: Saladin wil definitely be upset when we trade with Hammy though, which is why I think we want to get OB with him first.

If we manage OB with all 4, we can DoW Brennus and still only have 2 domestic trade routes (out of 44)
 
We have +4 (inland) or +5 (with harbor) more health coming, from trades for crabs, cows and rice.

Happy to trade away Iron, and what about Sugar to Qin, we should be getting more

We get deer back from Brens when DoW so I thought that was easier than sugar. And sugar is helpful for unhappy dudes in Brens cities when that join us.
 
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