SGOTM 17 - Fifth Element

[Folket]

I think there are a couple of problems in the PPP.

First, do you know that any unit fogbusts two squares in all directions? The archer and cities leaves about 8 squares at the western copper and rice. To move an axemen ten turns there I do not see how it is worth it. If you move the archer 1 step W it will not only fogbust all area we care about but we will have vision of any barbs moving south to the railroad. To me it seems very unlikely that a barb would sneak for five turns to move to the silver and go on the railroad from there.

Also, why would we ever send the workboat west. There is nothing to explore there. It needs to move east.

Let us have one unit spawnbusting somewhere around horses and one or two to the NE.

I think we need some culture in Prague. Perhaps grow to size 6 and whip a library?

Are you able to update the testgame?

 

[Folket]

Actually, more west of Prague.

There is nothing to spawnbust west of prague. In game you can see the border from Djenne. there can't be any barb spawning there.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

There is nothing to spawnbust west of prague. In game you can see the border from Djenne. there can't be any barb spawning there.

Once bitten, twice shy... We're covered for sure now on all fronts, I believe. Except the barb city south of Aachen. Mansa has been messing with them for awhile now.

Here's the rundown of the last few turns. No real surprises except one.

T63 - As I expected, barb axe attacks and dies for his worker killing crime.
T68 - GS born far away
T69 - Taoism is founded?! Someone, or some group, is teching up a storm...

I have one worker done, another nearly done, and a settler almost complete in Prague. Granaries are close in both Nuremberg and Vienna.

Here's the log:

Spoiler :

Turn 102, 325 BC: Nuremberg has been founded.
Turn 102, 325 BC: You have constructed a Library in Aachen. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Mansa Musa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 103, 300 BC: The borders of Vienna have expanded!

Turn 107, 200 BC: Barbarian's Spearman (4.00) vs Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) (8.75)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Combat Odds: 0.6%
Turn 107, 200 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 107, 200 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Barbarian's Spearman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 107, 200 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) has defeated Barbarian's Spearman!

Turn 109, 150 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 110, 125 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 110, 125 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Aachen. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 112, 75 BC: You have trained a Archer in Nuremberg. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) (7.50)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Combat Odds: 9.9%
Turn 112, 75 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 112, 75 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 112, 75 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 112, 75 BC: Quartermaster's Axeman 1 (Prague) has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 117, 50 AD: Isaac Newton (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 118, 75 AD: You have trained a Worker in Vienna. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 118, 75 AD: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 119, 100 AD: Prague can hurry Settler for 2⇴ with 11ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 21 turns.
Turn 119, 100 AD: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (Great Scientist) has been born in Aachen (Quartermaster)!

Next player save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Fifth_Element_SG017_AD0125_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Hope I did you guys proud. As always, point out things I may have done wrong or how I could improve my sets. I want to hear it so I can become a better player.

MF

 

[Folket]

I think the big mistake was to delay the axeman in Aachen for 10 turns. If you plan to do this you should probably explicitly state in your PPP that you will delay the axeman 10 turns. I do not think anyone expected you to do this.

A small thing. It is usually better to chop the jungle before starting to build cottages and mines. If you need to leave the square for any reasons you can get back faster. Also you have the flexibility of changing your mind once the jungle is choped.

Axeman 2 does not do anything at the moment. either move the whole way and spawnbust the western copper or explore to find Mansas fourth city.

Axeman 4 will spawnbust a little better by moving 1S. He can move into forest for defence when needed. 1W or 2W are also good spots.

You also seem to have sent the workboat west, even though I have said there is nothing to see there at least three times.

Aachen could have been microed to enable a 2 pop whip of the worker by putting one turn more into the barracks.

I would prefer to see cottages an all riverside squares in Vienna. I think it would have been better to put cottage on riverside banana instead of the other banana.

In Prague I guess you whipped an axeman? It is more efficient to whip the settler as we can grow back while building an axeman while we waste food when buildings settler.

 

[Folket]

When I read your PPP I do realize you did what you said in your PPP.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

When I read your PPP I do realize you did what you said in your PPP.

Indeed. But the critique of my set is welcomed anyway. Really. It's how I improve.

The reason I waited on the axe is that several called for a WB. I probably wouldn't have sent the axe to Nuremberg anyway, so the same situation would have happened.

I was hoping there might be some map maker joke that would lead to passage that we couldn't see unless we had a WB, but we can explore east easy enough. I don't expect we find much of interest, and don't really need the crab just yet.

I think we can still whip the settler in Prague, but I would not have our cottages under attack from barbs even if it looked safe. I'd lost a man already.

Those were just my thoughts. At least I didn't accidentally resign the game!

 

[unclethrill]

Good TS Mastiff!

So Folket is up next then me?

 

[BLubmuz]

Good job Mastiff.

I need to carefully look at the save to give my opinions on the overall game.

Tomorrow i'll update page 1, so anyone can be informed

 

[Folket]

Good TS Mastiff!

So Folket is up next then me?

I have already played a set, I think it is you or Shandoore next.

 

[Shaandore]

unclethrill should be next if he can play, but we can change if it's better for him.

I'll just quote the master about this turnset:
Some minor problems, there are, but a splendid turnset, you played, Mastiff

The riverside banana should have been first (I actually meant that one), but we would have cottaged the other one too, so not a problem. The axes will have their use.

 

[unclethrill]

I can play next but it will be Wednesday before I can do much. I'll try to look tonight or Tuesday night but no guarantees.

 

[Shaandore]

I think the PPP is the most important thing now. If you can do it tonight or tomorrow morning, then we can get on with the discussion so you can play on wednesday or thursday the latest. If not, I should take over now.

 

[unclethrill]

Not gonna happen before Tuesday night and that is iffy. For sure Wednesday night but I don't mind going after you Shan.

If you can play sooner then go for it and I'll go after you. This week is spring break for all four kids, I have to work 50 hours and we are still moving back into our house so next week is all around better for me anyway.

 

[Shaandore]

Alright, I got the save. Will post PPP only tomorrow though.

 

[BLubmuz]

I opened the save and it shows turn 70 we started on turn 50 and we played 70 turns WTF?

Anyway, it looks like we're in good shape considering this is a classical start.

I approve all the dots placed, we need to decide the priorities.

I think we can also consider the marble/silver area with one or two cities.

The island is a must, for the overseas trade routes, but i think we need the crab city first.
A quick expansion means a shorter war with Mansa, so less units to build, better research, less problems. I notice he settled a city by that small inner sea, good.

Shaan, if you can draft a PPP quickly i think you have to take it. I updated page 1, but it's easy to change 40 days are gone and i think this will be a long game, at least for logistics problems.[\strike]edit: xposted... do anyone know the forum equivalent for strike? i forgot.

 

[Folket]

OOT

I just won my first game on deity. I just want to thank the team as I would not have been able to without playing with you and learning the game during the last five months.

 

[Shaandore]

First: congrats, Folket!

Second: I'm at work, so PPP will come only in the afternoon. Before that, here are the things that I would like to do in this TS (with some arguments to start the discussion)

- expansion. I would like to settle 2 or 3 more cities (but no more before the war). I would settle the Vienna helper first, because cottages must be maturing (we are running out of the time window for building new cottages). Next would be horse city, and maybe crab if it can contribute to the war. The silver is too far away, Mansa will likely get it before us.

- tech path. I think that we need to start preparing for war now. If we wait more, we face lbs. This means that our next tech after currency has to be construction. I really hope we can trade for alpha with Mansa before declaring. I would like to scout him, let's see what we are up against. After this we will want to backfill some techs, but our next main priority will be Optics.

- city queues: We need 3 settlers, and at least as many workers. And granaries and barracks. If I still have some room, I will build some swords if there is a barracks. (we already have axes for stack defense, and with 4-5 swords and 5-6 cats we should be able to start the attack.)

- big question: Oxford or no oxford? I would guess that in this game the no Oxford approach is better. Even if it is a long game, it should end soon after astro. Meaning that the 6 unis and oxford hammers are better spent as an army. If we don't build oxford, then we don't need that many libraries, maybe one in Mansa's capital and one in the helper city. Later we can consider them in good coastal cities with lots of trade. But libraries are costy, so we don't want to overbuild them.

 

[Folket]

I think we could expand faster. Getting crab, horse, Vienna helper, barb city and island city. But your plan looks good as well.

I think it is very hard to know when to time the war. To me it is not obvious that a elephant/catapult war against longbows would be devestating. Or tech trading with Mansa to speed our tech and then run him over with knight or culrasiers is not a better option.

 

[Shaandore]

We definitely want to war before he gets engineering and city walls. Even if we start preparing now, we could face lbs in some cities. But I think it's cheaper to go with cats+swords+axes against skirmishers than waiting phants+cats against lbs. (If we can get phants in time, it would be best of course. We will see how our economy works after 2 more cities.)

 

[Folket]

Yes, it will be cheaper but it is not obvious we would not have that back by being able to trade more techs.