SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 1, 2013

Turn Set Results for turns 146 through 151 (continued):

autolog.txt file content (1/2):

Spoiler :

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 1, 2013

Turn Set Results for turns 146 through 151 (continued):

autolog.txt file content (2/2):

Spoiler :

Sun Tzu Wu

mabraham · Jun 1, 2013

bcool said:
mabraham are you going to be able to take the save?

I could. I have some time left this evening, and tomorrow afternoon and evening are clear. Next week is pretty much blank and flexible. Up to you, depending on your schedule.

mabraham · Jun 1, 2013

Thanks for the marathon effort, STW! :goodjob:

bcool · Jun 1, 2013

1. Sun Tzu Wu
2. mabraham ... UP NOW
3. Walter_Wolf ... Will let us know
4. bcool ... ON DECK
5. Tachywaxon ... Will let us know
6. sossos ... IN THE HOLE
7. Kaitzilla
8. WastinTime ... Will let us know

Okay I'm feeling a bit under the weather, so if mabraham has time, he is up.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 1, 2013

mabraham said:
Thanks for the marathon effort, STW!

You're welcome!

Now I can relax and tweak the test game save to match the uploaded real game save.

Sun Tzu Wu

mabraham · Jun 1, 2013

OK, I have the save. General PPP in about two hours.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 1, 2013

Considering how long it took me to complete my turn set, it's time to read TMIT's Guide to Speed Civving again!

My Civ4 game playing sure could use some speeding up!

Sun Tzu Wu

mabraham · Jun 1, 2013

General PPP T151-161

AP vote is next turn. One upside of keeping Guangzhou is that we are a hair's breadth from enough votes to stop the AP vote of stop the war without needing to defy! Qin has just enough population at the current count to win a peace vote. Qin's four Buddhist cities will not grow before the vote is counted, whereas we can certainly grow Raja and both Angkors in the next two turns (when the vote is counted). That would be enough for a casual game, but spontaneous or missionary Buddhist spread in Chengdu would derail our war by 10 turns. So I propose to go all-out to take and raze Hangzhou T152. It has only one CG2D1 LB and C1 sword on a hill with castle and 100% defence. We have one spy that can move to Hangzhou this turn to try a revolt at 0% fortify next turn ~600 :espionage:

. We have 2400 :espionage:

left on Qin, but won't be under such pressure again, so I think that is worthwhile. We move up our trebs and knights so that even if we fail the revolt, we have decent chances attacking with several knights from 1W of Hangzhou T152 after the seige bombards from 1NW (but not attacking!). That will be enough even if Chengdu spreads. And we have backup chances of revolt and taking Chengdu if needed. I'll run some sims of attacking Hangzhou in the case where revolt has failed, so we can judge how many knights might die before we commit to this solution. The 5 :mad:

in each of our 6 Buddhist cities until we can vote for an AP resolution that will pass could be quite inconvenient, given we'd like Yasod to be useful for the economy.

Other aspects of the Qin war
Take and raze Chengdu (unless maybe it has most of forge-courthouse-granary still) but wait for a bit of fortification on the spy unless taking Chengdu is required (as above).

Regroup northern forces and move on Shanghai.

Guangzhou forces head to 1SE of Beijing, siege and capture. No castle here, so our 13 trebs and 2 cats should be OK. Heal injured trebs 1SE of Beijing if opportunity presents. Bring up crossbow to be Guangzhou MP with an LK in support, but provide more cover in Guangzhou in the meantime. Qin does have a knight or two. Sword 13 to be MP in Yasod.

Future plans
Roll the rest of Qin, keep Beijing and Shanghai for sure, keep Nanjing (if only to stop Toku settling it), head through Toku land (make sure we keep OB with Toku!) and marshall stack 3E1S of Hastings. Then DOW Churchill, close borders with Toku, and teleport onto Hastings pig tile (anchor city will be Nanjing). Test all this with a test game.

The downside to this is that the Churchill troops are on a one-way ticket. They will never come back to tackle Toku. Their best-case scenario is that we can get some boats to Churchill's land from the north and maybe some of the leftover units from Churchill can make it to Peter's lands in order to make a difference.

The key objective is to kill both Peter, and the last of Churchill and Toku on the same turn. Since we need Toku alive to close borders to get to Churchill, and only get one chance to do that, we need to send an amount of troops that is sufficient, but not overkill. We also need to know whether any survivors might be useful against Peter, and how much we will need to send to Peter in the north, so that the rate of troop flow to Peter and Toku wars will be appropriate.

A galley city 4N of Kagoshima might be a wise investment once we have some more intel.

We need to see Peter's land, and whether there is a passable galley route such that boats will be useful recycling units from Churchill to Peter fronts. If so, then we can send a moderate excess to attack Churchill, an expeditionary force to attack Peter, and know that we will not be wasting the excess, and might even take Kagoshima from the north late in the game. Then most of our troop production can flow south to the Toku front, and we don't have to balance the reinforcement of the two fronts over the long term. The Toku front will be rather slow going!

Peter front
So I suggest we assemble the units around PeterBridge into LK-axe-phant-medicaxe scouting/pillaging mini-stack on the gold tile (sadly no 2-movement pillaging unit will be available for a while), DOW Peter and send a "small-but-plausible mixed-unit Peter-city-taking force" from our homeland starting now. The primary objective of the early DOW is getting the first galley from PeterBridge south to see if we have a naval route from Peter to Churchill (and whether we might want galleons for it?). To do this, chop the first galley from PeterBridge ASAP and plan for more galleys.

If there is no such route (likely from no religion with Churchill?), then we need to assemble three forces that will pretty much each have only one job. We have to judge the Churchill stack carefully, send it, and pray. And then send a balance of units to the Peter and Toku fronts and judge the endgame timing later on. Possibly the Kagoshima bridge city might help at the very end.

Great People We have a ~62% GMerchant next turn. We have 24 :food:

in the Marble Pigs granary and 3 more turns planned in caste before we switch back to slavery. I plan to work the three food tiles and 11 merchants to produce 357 :gp:

at -8

/turn. 18

of those are required to finish this GPerson, so 339 will carry forward. The next GPerson requires 500 :gp:

, so 161 more will be required. We can only run two merchants in slavery (from the market), so our base :gp:

production will drop to 7. Multiplier will be 2.5, so we'll produce 17 :gp:

/turn, so another ~95% GMerchant will be due in good time to support the economy. (We can also add a grocer, and we'll have to re-open borders with Toku in time to use the trade mission!) Basically, use the Golden Age multiplier on caste while we have food to convert it with. Even if we can't re-open borders with Toku (from shared war with Mansa) in time to suit the war campaign, we can get a final Golden Age with the scientist.

Is it worth trying to get our T152 GMerchant to Kyoto rather than Walata?

Cities
Continue existing spy production, then just replace losses. Ensure three Hindu missionaries are on queues or the map at all times. Otherwise units. Probably no wealth required this turn set, except Trojan Horse and Stoney Beach.

New cities get granary and rathaus as required. Generally units/missionaries after that.

Espionage
On Churchill until we get city visibility, then Toku for same. We have enough for city visibility on Peter now. Intel to judge army sizes is the most important use for espionage in the next 15 turns, now that we probably have enough from the infiltration to use on Qin.

Diplo
Keep OB with Toku. Keep OB with Mansa and/or Toku until the trade mission(s) succeed. Kill Qin. Pretty much ignore Peter and Churchill, but don't get get caught in peace treaties with them either.

Can we threaten/beg anyone?

Tech
Still on Gunpowder at 0%

Other
Keep Trojan Horse until we know what/if we want to steal from Mansa. Anything we can steal now we can also trade from Toku or Churchill, so what's the point? Trojan Horse is paying for itself, but we can give it its pig also.

I have noticed some ongoing micro plans discussed in the thread. I'll work those in as appropriate once people have had a chance to chew on the above. Hopefully you don't spit it out! :lol:

Kaitzilla · Jun 1, 2013

mabraham said:
I think not. It must have been seen and be a legal tile for us to enter. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11460930&postcount=2721 (and link from your post three down!) Once we are at war with Churchill, the tile is legal to enter. So DOW, close borders with Toku, profit!

OH!

You're a genius

I see the profit now.

Kaitzilla · Jun 1, 2013

Nice turnset Sun Tzu Wu!

A real marathon effort. Sury is dead, Qin has been taken down a notch hard, and we are in a position to start making estimates for the end game

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 1, 2013

Excellent goals PPP, mabraham!

Swordsman 13 --> MP for Yasodharapura

frees Crossbowman 1 --> MP for Guangzhou.

allows: Axeman 8 --> MP for Nagara Jayasri?

allows: War Elephant 10 --> join SoD or 2nd MP for Guangzhou?

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 1, 2013

A trivial way to win TAP votes is to convert to Buddhism for doubled votes.

Of course, mabraham's plan is much, much better.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · Jun 1, 2013

Mmm, if we took 2 more Qin cities, then couldn't we cease fire, give Qin Trojan Horse back, and flip him to Hinduism before DoWing him again? That would cut his vote total in half.

Also, unless Churchill manages to push his culture into Toku's lands, I think Mabraham has solved our Churchill problem so that we don't need Astronomy.

bcool · Jun 1, 2013

Yes, no need for astronomy. So we should try to get theocracy and civil service and switch to theology when we switch back to slavery.

cutting Qin's votes in half by flipping him to Hinduism is appealing as well. Let's us be a bit conservation with the aggressive capture of Qin's city. Or a back up if the city revolt fails.

Kaitzilla · Jun 2, 2013

Peter is usually no pushover on Immortal. He is a fighter.
So is Tokugawa in his own way.

Churchill? I've never really feared him. His redcoats are fierce but I don't think we have to worry about those.

It feels like we should pour units into Qin for 2 or 3 more turns, then spend the next 15 sending all units to attack Peter.

Our huge stack can move to Western Toku after Qin dies. Maybe send half the giant SoD and a Great General medic over the ice to invade Churchill. Keep the other half and our other super medic on that one neutral tile in Toku's western land to launch the invasion against his core western cities.

As the attack on Churchill and Toku begins, we can shift new units back down south to hit Toku from the east as we are chewing into his west.

We hit Peter at a run with a pretty big army and then have a world war against everyone at the same time on 4 fronts

Mansa can be finished by a few knights when we don't think we need to gift him any cities that need razing anymore.

mabraham · Jun 2, 2013

Thanks for feedback so far.

I gather we abused Mansa and Qin by gifting Hari to Mansa. Where is Tokugawa's stack now? T147 note says near Guangzhou, but no sign of it now. We might want the same trick with Nanjing and Tokugawa. Timing of the gift with Tokugawa close borders then DOW will be tricky.

I must be missing the point with flipping Qin to Hinduism via gifting Trojan Horse. If we have to get him down to three cities for the gift, we would already have enough votes to block adverse outcomes. If Qin already has owned Trojan Horse and so will take it back automatically, that makes sense as a T152 backup play. We do have :espionage:

to burn, though, so trying the Hangzhou revolt seems a no-brainer to me.

If we get a GArtist (or such) T152, fuse with scientist for second Golden Age?

Otherwise, I like bcool's plan of getting Civil Service and Theology (by trading with Churchill and Tokugawa now) and switching in three turns to running Police State, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Mercantilism and Theocracy for the end game.

Accordingly, plan to settle next GG in Aachen, add stable, for 9XP knights.

Kaitzilla · Jun 2, 2013

No idea where Tokugawa's stack is. We've got a vision chariot somewhere that we can send to go look for it. It wasn't that many units. Like 6 or 7? Horse archers and stuff.

Not sure if we want Civil Service over Vassalage. +2xp to every military is still kinda nice.

We finally have an axe near that barb city in the center of the map.

Kassite.

Guarded by 2 longbows and one other unit I think. Thank goodness the barbs waited to upgrade to longbows! Our axe can easily pillage the snot out of it for golds.

Alternative, we can capture it pretty easily with the first units meant for Peter since it is mostly connected by railroad to our Hade's Hammar city. Trebs and Knights usually have no problem against flatland longbows with no promos.

Capturing it or razing might yield a faster route between Vienna our gold city and the west using the railroad that runs east to west if we road a few more tiles in the middle of the map. That would yield a fast route to get Peter units back to face Tokugawa if Peter fell unexpectedly quickly.

mabraham · Jun 2, 2013

Kaitzilla said:
No idea where Tokugawa's stack is. We've got a vision chariot somewhere that we can send to go look for it. It wasn't that many units. Like 6 or 7? Horse archers and stuff.

OK, no big deal then.

Not sure if we want Civil Service over Vassalage. +2xp to every military is still kinda nice.

mm true. I haven't really looked at what output our capital has...

We finally have an axe near that barb city in the center of the map.
Kassite.

Guarded by 2 longbows and one other unit I think. Thank goodness the barbs waited to upgrade to longbows! Our axe can easily pillage the snot out of it for golds.

Alternative, we can capture it pretty easily with the first units meant for Peter since it is mostly connected by railroad to our Hade's Hammar city. Trebs and Knights usually have no problem against flatland longbows with no promos.

Capturing it might yield a faster route between Vienna our gold city and the west using the railroad that runs east to west if we road a few more tiles in the middle of the map.

We'll see what we find. A route to/from Vienna doesn't feel too useful to me. We could shift our southern troop-distribution point west so that we don't need to build any more galleys to get use out of a Vienna land bridge, but what are we getting that we can't do via the Hades? The western railroad goes over some mountains, so that's not much fun... Even if the expedition to Kassite is cheap, paying maintenance for it still costs real gold. The silver tile 3W of Vienna has fresh water, so we might need another canal city, too.

Sun Tzu Wu · Jun 2, 2013

My only concern about the conclusion that we don't need Astronomy is we do not know where all of Peter's cities are. The scenario designer could have arranged Peter to start with a city (or second settler) accessible only via Astronomy from his other cities. An alternative is starting with same Astronomy only accessible land with a Warrior next to a Barbarian city without defenders. In this scenario, we can capture all of Peter's cities without Astronomy except one.

Sun Tzu Wu

SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

Deity

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Lord Croissant

Lord Croissant

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