SGOTM 17 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

Have you compared settling pigs first with the other options?

I haven't done any testing where I was really paying close attention to micro, but I have done both pigs first and elephants first. I found the elephant site quite good - 3 grassland elephants really does add up to some good gold and excellent hammers. However the power of the pig site is the ability to recover quickly from the whip.

I'll try a couple more over the next day or two paying more attention to micro - I'm thinking the farmed bananas might partly compensate the elephant site. The whip would have to be used a little less, but the result might be another archer or two produced in between putting out the two settlers in say just a few turns more. But I'll have to play it to compare better.

I'd be very interested to know what Hawk comes up with also.

 

[leif erikson]

I haven't done any testing where I was really paying close attention to micro, but I have done both pigs first and elephants first. I found the elephant site quite good - 3 grassland elephants really does add up to some good gold and excellent hammers. However the power of the pig site is the ability to recover quickly from the whip.

Yes, this is what I experienced as well. The Pig site offers faster expansion, the Ivory site a bit faster research.

edit - think the faster expansion can make up for early slower research rate. Thinking Pigs is the better way to go.

 

[The-Hawk]

I haven't done any testing where I was really paying close attention to micro, but I have done both pigs first and elephants first. I found the elephant site quite good - 3 grassland elephants really does add up to some good gold and excellent hammers. However the power of the pig site is the ability to recover quickly from the whip.

I'll try a couple more over the next day or two paying more attention to micro - I'm thinking the farmed bananas might partly compensate the elephant site. The whip would have to be used a little less, but the result might be another archer or two produced in between putting out the two settlers in say just a few turns more. But I'll have to play it to compare better.

I'd be very interested to know what Hawk comes up with also.

Did some more testing. Like you, I did not worry too much about micro because detailed testing is not worth it until we open more FOW. However, I did fool around with settling Phants first. Best option up on the Phants seems to be to camp the forest Phants first (those hammers really help Granary), then farm the bananas, then go back and camp the other two Phants. However, this is still slower than the pig site. Pigs got a settler out 3 turns sooner, and was much better situated to get a fourth settler out (with Pigs and farmed bananas it will grow back much faster).

Why did I not test all the way to the third city? I found another problem with settling Phants first... it will force us to settle Pig City 1E of the archer position or we will not get the Pigs until a border pop (and since it is not our capital, it will not pop until we build a library or monument). Problem is, settling 1E of the archer may be a good site, or it may be crap. Until we move the archer and scout, we have no idea if there is complete crap to the west and we need to decide where to send the settler now. 1E certainly loses the flexibility of sharing the bananas and wastes a forest. If we settle the Phants first, we lose the option of settling the better of the two locations by the pigs (archer or 1E).

At this point, I am pretty convinced we want to settle the pigs first. Even being somewhat conservative and building an archer before whipping the settler, we can have the phant site on turn 26 (connected by a road and with the worker up there ready to camp the phants). The Phants site got city 2 on turn 29. By turn 29, the pig site may be ready to whip settler 3. Also, whipping the Phant site is painful, it hurts to lose those productive phants citizens and then grow back slowly. I vote for Pigs being our capital and spamming settlers/workers via the whip while Phant city builds our barb protection without whipping. Clam site then can come along and drive research via scientists.

 

[Htadus]

Test 1: Pig City with chops and whip

Spoiler :

T0: Revolt. Move Settler towards pig.
T1: 9bpt base: Founded capital and archer to pig. I do not want a bloody jungle there. Worker returning. Working lake, CoL in 37.
T2: Worker does 1 turn of cottage east of lake. Archer on pig to stay.
T3: Worker on the forest west of Cap.
T4: Start Chop.
T6: Switch to settler and chop. Culture expand.
T7: Switch to warrior usng 3 food tile. Start pasture. Archer moves out.
T8: Buddhism founded.
T9: First Lion spotted.
T10: Hindu founded. Pasture done. First Panther spotted.
T11: Size 2. Worker on hill to build mine. Work Pig and nana.
T12: Meet Hammy.
T14: Size 3. Work Pig, nana and FGH.
T15: Crap. We get religion. ?????? This is going to mess the culture output. WBuild it out. Warrior done.
T16: Start settler. 5 turns using Pig, mine and fgh. Warrior head to Ivory site.
T17: Whip settler. Worker start road to ivory.
T18: Start MP warrior.
T19: 10bpt base: Founded city2 and start a Spawn Buster. Worker is roading instead of farming nana.
T22: 12bpt base: Cap: Warrior done and start Lib. Worker start nana farm.

Test 2: Ivory City with chops and whips

Spoiler :

T0: Revolt. Move Settler north of lake.
T1: 9bpt base: Founded capital and archer to pig. I do not want a bloody jungle there still. Worker start camp. Working ivory, CoL in 43.
T2: Archer on pig to stay.
T4: Camp done.
T5: Worker in forest SW of cap.
T6: Warrior done and heading out. Start Lib to allow growing. Culture expands. Worker farming nana's.
T7: Meet Hammy. OB accidently. Oh well.
T8: Buddhism founded.
T9: First Bear spotted. Hammy switch to Buddhist.
T10: Size 2. Hindu founded. Nana farm done. Running from bear.
T11: Start chop.
T14: Switch to settler and complete chop. Work forested Ivory and camp.
T15: Swich back to lib.
T17: Size 3 and switch back to settler.
T19: Whip settler. 2 tiles are roaded toward the lake near Pig.
T20: 13bpt base using camp: Founded city 2. Oh well we need a monument to get the pigs on line.

Pig is better. Now I need to optimize the Pig site.

I am off for the night.

I think we need to see what is over the hill near pigs.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If pig's is clearly optimal, then perhaps we should move a few units before continuing testing.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree. Perhaps we should move the Settler W and SW, change the turn and then move the Archer W and the Scout W and, maybe, SW? Then we're off and testing.

 

[Mad Professor]

Agree. Perhaps we should move the Settler W and SW, change the turn and then move the Archer W and the Scout W and, maybe, SW? Then we're off and testing.

Looks like we agree the pigs spot is the better one to start the game in. I'm happy to make these moves shortly. Mmmm - the log is going to have me starting the fourth session in turn one by the time we're though this testing.

As well as moving the settler as described and the archer, I will revolt to slavery before the end of turn 0 as well.

 

[Mad Professor]

OK I did just that. Moved Settler W-SW, revolted to slavery, ended turn.

In new turn, move archer 1 NW (better than west for seeing new tiles) then moved the scout 1 NW. Was confronted with jungle on the edge of my vision so though might get a better view moving it 1NE for the second part of its move so it finished up 2N.

In the north, there is a FOURTH elephant tile, and in the west a range of grassland hills - one has banana on it. There's also gems in the jungle in the north.

Here's the new northern view:


Here's the new western view:


I don't think I need to repost the save do I? If someone wants me to, say so and I'll do it.

Edit: Oh - IBT there was a list of the wealthiest civs. We were seventh and last.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Well, a hillside full of bananas. Haven't seen that before. Should change the testing parameters.

 

[Mad Professor]

Well, a hillside full of bananas. Haven't seen that before. Should change the testing parameters.

One thing about that is because it's on a hill, it can't be farmed for use pre-calendar. On the other hand, once we have calendar, the resulting banana plantation will have a couple of hammers...

I think it's a bit out of range for the capital though. We can't just keep walking the settler west. Some interesting possibilities for a city including that range of hills though.

 

[Undecided]

MP, if you don't upload the save please remember to make a T1 Demo Screenshot to get a look for the AI-Caps. Maybe GLH is in the cards.

Tested a bit over the weekend and i also prefer Pigsite. Not sure on first tech. I'm inclined to use this "Trick" where you don't allocate research until T5 to see if 4 more turns of exploring favour clearly one tech over the other.

 

[leif erikson]

One thing about that is because it's on a hill, it can't be farmed for use pre-calendar. On the other hand, once we have calendar, the resulting banana plantation will have a couple of hammers...

I think it's a bit out of range for the capital though. We can't just keep walking the settler west. Some interesting possibilities for a city including that range of hills though.

I agree as the Banana on the hill gives 2f/1h.

Here is an updated test save.

 

[Cactus Pete]

2f3h mined.

 

[leif erikson]

Yeah, that's right. When we are whipping, is that better than 4f from a farmed banana to go along with the 6f from the pig?

 

[Cactus Pete]

It's probably better, but whether it's worth the time to get there is not so certain.

 

[Htadus]

So we are playing a some sort of a Rainforest Map huh? What a little trap? We would need CS to chain farm but CS would mess up Astro bulb which may or may not needed.

This hurt me to say this but I am in favor of going for IW with that gem in the reachable visinity. And who knows? If we have Iron or easily claimable, then may be a good old sword rush may be in order.

Yeah, that's right. When we are whipping, is that better than 4f from a farmed banana to go along with the 6f from the pig?

They are about same until granary shows up. After that farm is better, Also later it will allow us to run 2 more specialists in that city. I am hoping we can move the capital to a suitable capital location.

It's probably better, but whether it's worth the time to get there is not so certain.

I think not. Also why waste a perfectly good 30 hammers toward a setller.


I might have some time to test tonight but I am absolutely positive 2nd worker is better than the early 3rd city.

 

[The-Hawk]

I am back on the road after being home last week, so my testing will be limited. I'll try to get a little in.

This hurt me to say this but I am in favor of going for IW with that gem in the reachable visinity. And who knows? If we have Iron or easily claimable, then may be a good old sword rush may be in order.

Yeah, those gems are tempting. And where there is one gems tile, there often are others. I just hope some more bananas show up somewhere in the FOW by the gems.

 

[leif erikson]

Are we ready to start testing then with the Capital south of the lake and teching towards? IW, OK.

Yeah, those gems are tempting. And where there is one gems tile, there often are others. I just hope some more bananas show up somewhere in the FOW by the gems.

Hell with Bananas, if we are going to wish, how about a corn on a flood plain. Will even settle for on grass with a river adjacent.

 

[Htadus]

IW as a first tech is a bit too early since it may be too early for us to found that city. But it will let us know where the resource is located at. However, CoL is my preferd tech and early CH are great with its ability to get more Espy and lowered cost of expansion.

This leader is great for expansion and we should capitalize the traits and UB to get the most out of it.

My test did not have fog busters so I built lib in second city and ended up with too many barbs showing up from all over the place at about T50. So that definitely is a cut off to secure the areas.

I hope we can come to an agreement about the tech and the build order. I would like to hear any ideas.

EDIT: Xposted with leif. I am not too sure IW is the best choice as of right now leif. That city is a bit of the way from the capital. I think we should run some test to 3 or 4 cities with known terrain.

 

[leif erikson]

I agree with what you have said but think it is also early to get CoL's as we will not be building many Rathaus' for a while. Seems to me that Math for chopping is a good starting point as we could go Construction, Calendar or Currency while also keeping an eye towards CoL's. With the tech pace I experienced in testing, Alphabet may not be out of line either, try to make some early trades?

Perhaps we should test several different tech paths and see where it takes us. The only problem is this test save does not have a lot of close AI to test trading. Did that intentionally to allow for testing of opening moves.

Think scouting will be important from the aspect of finding city sites and finding or opponents. No Sword rush if we do not know where they are?