SGOTM 19 Pregame Discussion Thread - The Trumpster

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Yes. It used to be three months. Then it drifted to four. Let's try to keep the focus.

Someone, please explain how reducing the time limit and strongly discouraging time extensions will make SGTOM more fun to play and/or increase participation. In my opinion, it is likely to do the opposite (make it less fun and decrease participation).

Many teams already have trouble finding enough free time to meet the four month schedule. Many of these teams may have disband, because of the aggessive schedule. Often, the issue is scheduling the player up when that player has enough free time to play. Also, when too many people on a team don't have enough time to play, it places too much pressure on the remaining players to keep up the pace, because the rotation becomes too small.

What was a reasonable schedule at the very beginning of the SGOTM series may not necessarily be reasonable now. Civilization IV and Warlords were far simpler games then. We now have the complication of Beyond the Sword plus a much greater body of knowledge about game mechanics and strategy that vastly exceeds what was available for Vanilla and Warlords. The added complexity requires a longer schedule.

Each new SGOTM adds to our expanding knowledge of the game; the shorter three month schedule will have a negative impact on new understandings of the game mechanics and strategies.

Furthermore, assuming that SGOTM-19 will require teams to play differently (require goals be met beyond what the game requires) to win, which the initial game rules suggest, that may require additional time as well.

It should be evident to everyone that reducing the schedule from four to three months is quite drastic. The question that remains is what do we lose and what (if anything) do we gain from a shirter schedule? I just don't buy the argument that we must reduce the schedule from four months to three months just because three months "worked" a long time ago.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Gumbolt]

If people don't have the time to finish a game of civ 4 how can they live normal lives.

3 months is a good idea. I know PD and many other teams finished previous games in just over 3 months and 2 weeks and still won gold laurels. I have never been a fan of dragging out games for the sake of it. We all have lives to lead but to keep players interested it helps to keep the game moving.

Any player signing up is in effect agreeing to a certain level of participation. I tend to think in life you have to have some me time. All work no play makes jack a dull boy. (No offence to anyone here called Jack.)

 

[LowtherCastle]

From the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread

Etiquette and Behaviour. (Guidance only)
.
.
.
6. When it is your turn to play, it is normal to pick the game up within 24 hours of the new save being made available, and to post a new save within 48 hours of that (so 72 hours in total). If you cannot meet the deadline then your team captain may grant you an extension or skip you at his discretion.​

Yes, it's listed as "Guidance only" but long before Kakumeika formed its team, SGs were actually played this way. That's how Murky Waters did it in SG3, when I first started. I believe in SG2, the winning team, CFR, played their game in something like a month and a half.

This has obviously evolved, with teams now routinely building intricate test games and PPPs and all sorts of additions, but back then it was tons of fun playing that way and in general players didn't lose interest and teams stayed together. I even remember Big Pig, the MW team captain, warning us about waning interest when play ran a day or two late...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well another factor I failed to point out is this game is Immortal level, which reasonbly would take a bit more time to play than the same game at Emperor level.

A majority of teams have asked for a extension on SGOTMs for about as long as I can remember. Setting a fixed limit of three months is in conflict with the previous granting of extensions. Something is going give. I afraid it will be SGOTM participation. If it drops from 9 teams to maybe 6 teams (there are more than that forming now, but most have only 1-3 members at the moment), it would be debatable whether that is an improvement.

SGOTM rules guidance for turn set protocol is fine as far as it goes. I assume most teams have their own protocol that typically allows for a total of more than three days and possibly differrent no. of turns per turn set. Unfortunately, reality is less forgiving than an idealistic guideline. I've heard of teams going down to a rotation of as little as 2-3 player for long scretches of the game, several SGOTMs in a order. When one remembers the past, it is often with rose tinted glasses; winning can cause one to overlook the pain of getting there.

At least a shorter time limit will still be fair. Every team will have to complete the game in 2/3 the usual amount of time. Many people have to do this sort of compressed schedule in their working lives. I hope we don't have to do that with our free time (play more turns in less time). The former deadline was stressful enough as it was.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[kcd_swede]

Re: hidden condition

Is there a possibility that a team auto-disqualifies itself from meeting the condition before learning Democracy?

If you win or lose the game before learning Democracy, you will disqualify. Otherwwise, no... the hidden requirement is not something that can be rendered impossible. It may or may not require you to re-assess your goals and how best to acheive all conditions, though.

 

[kcd_swede]

Couple of comments, not directed at any particular posts but addressing issues mentioned above:

1) One would be foolish to assume that the mapmaker has not manipulated placements of resources. Hint: Exploration will be at a premium, and thus you are gifted a scout. Note, you may (fairly safely) assume that the mapmaker has not drastically altered the amounts and types of resources for the Lakes map script, though.

2) It is realized that optimum gameplay may suffer when time constraints become more restrictive. It is expected that teams will adapt to the schedule as if it were another one of the game objectives. May the team that best handles the set conditions win. We have had several games with generous/flexible time constraints, and now its time to see how a more restrictive schedule affects the competition. It is not necessarily an indication of what to expect in future sgotms. Some will enjoy a faster pace, and some will be less enthusiastic that the time to explore every option just does not exist in this competition... so we cater to the former in this case, but we do try to cater to everyone when possible.

 

[kcd_swede]

One other thing... we (me?) are planning to try out a "spectator's thread" where those not eligible to post in any team threads can discuss the on-going game.

This thread will be off-limits to anybody assigned to a team, including those assigned as "official lurkers", just like other teams' thread would be, untill your team completes the game.

It is envisioned that there will be a delay of a couple weeks after the game starts before the spectator thread opens. No discussion of the game should occur anywhere but there for non-participants, and in the team thread for participants.

It might be the logical place for post-game strategy comparisons and discussions... or it might just be a mess. We'll be watching this experiment closely.

 

[Sleepless]

The game description states any resources popped in the last 20 turns will not be counted against us.

Trouble with trying to read and work at the same time.. just skim through..

 

[ChrisShaffer]

As someone who observed last time, I question the need to wait a couple of weeks after the game starts before opening the spectator thread. What is the purpose of the delay? I note that I'm very much in favor of the idea and would have happily used it last game.

In regard to the time limit, it's one of the reasons I signed up to play. It gives me a definite constraint for how long I'll be obsessed with Civ4. It's entirely possible that a 4 month game with potential extensions would have kept me on the sidelines. I like knowing that I'm signing up for a three month tour... (if we have five people on our team, can we sing the song? Please? )

Five passengers set sail that day,
For a three hour tour,
A three hour tour.

 

[chessplaya]

Do I understand the game description correctly that this is an ancient era start, so we have access to all ancient era wonders including Oracle, but we have all the techs for a classical era start except Med/Poly/Mono? Or is this the game start the same as in SGOTM 17 except starting at 4000BC?

 

[kcd_swede]

As someone who observed last time, I question the need to wait a couple of weeks after the game starts before opening the spectator thread. What is the purpose of the delay? I note that I'm very much in favor of the idea and would have happily used it last game.

In regard to the time limit, it's one of the reasons I signed up to play. It gives me a definite constraint for how long I'll be obsessed with Civ4. It's entirely possible that a 4 month game with potential extensions would have kept me on the sidelines. I like knowing that I'm signing up for a three month tour... (if we have five people on our team, can we sing the song? Please? )

Main reason for the delay, if I'm unavailable at the time, it can wait. But I'll do my best to get it opened asap after the teams get going.

Note, the advantage of waiting a week or two might be that some later-comers to the competition could be less likely to have been spoilered, but the honor system works very well and teams tend to self-enforce, so that's no reason, really. So asap, but that could be a few days if I'm busy.

 

[kcd_swede]

Do I understand the game description correctly that this is an ancient era start, so we have access to all ancient era wonders including Oracle, but we have all the techs for a classical era start except Med/Poly/Mono? Or is this the game start the same as in SGOTM 17 except starting at 4000BC?

Yes, ancient era wonders are constructable. It is an ANCIENT era start with all ancient era techs, minus the religions ones. And now minus priesthood.

 

[Gumbolt]

I assume we don't start with PH? It's an ancient era tech but has 2 religion techs before it.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I assume we don't start with PH? It's an ancient era tech but has 2 religion techs before it.

Based on the game description, Teams will have Priesthood at turn 0. (Priesthood does not provide a religion and nothing in the game description suggests that we will not have all ancient era technologies, except those that provide a religion.)

You and all AI (and barbs) start with all of the Ancient Era technologies EXCEPT those which grant a religion (i.e. Meditation, Polytheism, and Monotheism), so all religions can be founded and none are distributed randomly.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[kcd_swede]

Based on the game description, Teams will have Priesthood at turn 0. (Priesthood does not provide a religion and nothing in the game description suggests that we will not have all ancient era technologies, except those that provide a religion.)



Sun Tzu Wu

I assume we don't start with PH? It's an ancient era tech but has 2 religion techs before it.

Sun Tzu is correct. The way worldbuilder works does not require the pre-reqs. However, for gameplay and preventing Oracle from being a make-or-break decision for the players, you have convinced me that Priesthood should NOT be included for the human players. Game Description will be amended accordingly.

 

[Folket]

I do not think oracle is available in classic era starts.

 

[Gumbolt]

I do not think oracle is available in classic era starts.

Ancient era start. See game description.

 

[haphazard1]

you have convinced me that Priesthood should NOT be included for the human players. Game Description will be amended accordingly.

So the AIs (and barbs, presumably) will still have Priesthood?

 

[kcd_swede]

So the AIs (and barbs, presumably) will still have Priesthood?

Only in the saves I make for Misfit Gypsy Nuts... and possibly Phoenix Rising.

Any more questions from these directions?


The answer to your question is definitely maybe, and I'm not telling you even if I know the answer.

 

[Gumbolt]

Haha just give the barbs feudalism. Not sure if the barbs know how to use PH. This could make early barbs a slight issue.