Oh yea, that's another great reason for Currency. The AI can't research it yet. There is a good chance we will be able to trade this around. CoL on the other hand will be researched by someone before us.
SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Mitchum
Deity
So where do we stand?
Jastrow and WT are opposed to Oracling CoL. Jastrow is worried about getting beat to the Oracle even if we beeline it. Both want to self-tech Math next.
ZPV is testing earliest possible Oracle in the capital.
LC is toying with bulbing Math.
Dhoom is testing several SIP options...
Serial is MIA
I'm leaning toward self-teching Math as well... trying for an early GS is just too costly to our REX.
So where do we go from here? How do we break this log jam?
EDIT: xpost with WT.
Jastrow and WT are opposed to Oracling CoL. Jastrow is worried about getting beat to the Oracle even if we beeline it. Both want to self-tech Math next.
ZPV is testing earliest possible Oracle in the capital.
LC is toying with bulbing Math.
Dhoom is testing several SIP options...
Serial is MIA
I'm leaning toward self-teching Math as well... trying for an early GS is just too costly to our REX.
So where do we go from here? How do we break this log jam?
EDIT: xpost with WT.
Mitchum
Deity
We could go Math -> Med -> PH and sling Construction for an early catapult war. Or just Math -> Construction. I guess it depends who our neighbors are and how close they are. We could also go for Calendar to hook up our two known Calendar resources for +2 
and a much better Sugar city.
In any event, do we really need to pick the tech after Math right now should we agree to go Math first?
and a much better Sugar city.In any event, do we really need to pick the tech after Math right now should we agree to go Math first?
Oh, another reason for Currency...
It allows us to research CoL/CS if we just can't wait for the AI to get medi/PH, and with a couple turns into CoL, we can do a partial trade for Math or something.
It allows us to research CoL/CS if we just can't wait for the AI to get medi/PH, and with a couple turns into CoL, we can do a partial trade for Math or something.
LowtherCastle
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I guess we're not operating under the same assumptions. My experience is that when we or an AI get CoL, no one else wants to self-tech it, so it can be off the market for a long time. COnstruction is typically off the market because it has such an inordinate tech trade value. Calendar and Currrency, by contrast, usually come much earlier because 1) AIs prioritize them, 2) all tech them, so 3) they're willing to trade them.
We're on a Constitution beeline. CoL is very early on that beeline. We're going to end up teching it ourselves (bad), teching something off the beeline (bad), or running a 0% slider but still running 2 scientists for the Philo bulb (not quite as bad).
WT, is your experience that we'll be able to trade for CoL right after we get math? Okay, the AI that gets Oracle will take CoL or MC or Aesthetics or Math or Monarchy. SOeone has to tech ALpha. Hm...I just don't see this adding up. I see us having to tech CoL ourselves.
Dhoomstriker
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Open Borders
- Opening Borders before Religious lines are drawn could lead us to having to take negative Diplo hits when one AI asks us to stop trading (aka Close Borders) with their future Worst Enemy. I would hold off on Opening Borders with an AI until we see either an immediate benefit:
i. Exploring their lands when we are ready to move into their Culutural Borders
OR
ii. Can get Trade Routes
OR, have a perceived long-term benefit:
iii. Opening Borders with an AI who will only trade techs at Pleased, such as Shaka, to start accumulating positive Diplo with said AI
Espionage
I agree with setting a Weight = 1 on Asoka and leaving it that way until we see a reason to change it. For example, if you meet or or two AIs in between turns, you have no control over which AI gets the EPs. We want to be in control of this game factor, even if we "switch horses" as soon as we meet another AI, we want to be the ones to manually make that switch and not let the game decide for us.
We should probably have some "stop or pause play" discussion points built into PPPs, and "meeting an AI" sounds like a good point to pause or stop and ask for feedback.
We can also decide ahead of time what to do. My default answers would be:
- Do not Open Borders with anyone until we've agreed to do so (if you really want to Open Borders ASAP with an AI then stopping play and getting agreement to do so would be the best way for the Active Player to get their wishes)
- After setting Weight = 1 on Asoka, do not change the Espionage Weighting until we have agreement to do so. So, again, we can either have the Active Player stop play or we can leave it up to the Active Player to only stop play if the Active Player thinks that we should switch our Espionage Weighting target
Corporate Resources
To me, that's not worth it, so we need to plan on researching every tech that unlocks every type of a Corporation's Resources for our chosen Corporation.
If what you have said is that we only need to reveal the INPUT Resources for a Coporation which generates an OUTPUT Resource, then I am in complete agreement with you.
Lower-Risk Oracle
Chop it. We pre-Math Chop it with pre-Chops spanning the course of three turns (two turns if we pre-build Roads) and using 2 Workers to complete the Chops (4 Chops at 20 Hammers each with the Marble bonus = 4 * 20 * 2 = 80 * 2 = 160, and we need 150 Hammers).
That way, less Hammers get sunk into it.
Another option is to tech Math first and only if The Oracle is available, then go for Meditation -> Priesthood and put 3 30-Hammer Chops into it (3 * 30 * 2 = 90 * 2 = 180).
Oracle-related Comments
Don't forget the "benefit" of getting to settle a Great Prophet (or to Lightbulb Theology so that we can gift it to an AI to build The Apostolic Palace for us). I quote the word "benefit" since it means delaying our future Great Scientists.
So, assuming that we can get Meditation or Polytheism in trade, then it should be trivial to also get Priesthood in trade, as with all AIs knowing Priesthood, Priesthood will be tradeable by everyone post-Oracle-completion. But, without that tech trading ability, which requires an AI whom we have met to go for Alphabet, then we'll *probably* want Priesthood before going for Code of Laws -> Bureaucracy, even if we already have Currency, to save on the code of self-teching Code of Laws.
Absolute worst case, assuming that we don't invest any Hammers into The Oracle prior to connecting-up the Marble, we get a 1 Hammer : 2 Gold return on our investment in the Wonder, which is good, although at the expense of early-game Hammers that are generally even more valuable (but perhaps are less valuable when you are Imperialistic and start with Pottery for easily-whippable Settlers).
Staying Away from the Corners?
Exploration
I would put a high priority on thouroughly exploring the nearby area for City locations. Even if there is a pre-built Gold Mine 20 squares away from our capital, we're not going to beeline settling there. Let an AI settle there and we'll capture the City later. We want to make sure that we are making informed decisions about where to settle Cities #2 and #3, since those decisions will have major impacts on how the game progresses.
If that means that it takes us much longer for our Scout to try and meet another AI, so be it. We'll meet the AIs eventually, but "eventually" spotting what would have been a great settling location will just leave a bitter taste in our mouths.
In particular, I would put heavy emphasis on exploring every square in a potential big fat cross that could contain any Food Resource which we reveal.
Worker's Next Action
a) Improve a 2nd Resource while building the Granary to completion
b) Improve a 2nd Resource and start building a Worker at Size 2
c) Chop a Forest and start building a Worker at Size 2, which will be 1-pop-whipped
d) Chop a Forest and 1-pop-whip the Granary
For a) and b), as our next step, we may optionally Chop a Forest into either a Worker or a Granary.
For example, with scenario b), we could improve the Copper (which definitely makes sense while slow-building a Worker) and then when our next Worker action (a Forest Chop) is completed, switch to building a Granary for a turn... doing so gets rid of the need for "annoying" micro like working a PH For instead of a G Pig for the sake of avoiding getting too much Food.
Testing is most definitely needed before proceeding with play.
Two Heads are Better Than One
An earlier Trade Route connection between our first two Cities is another area where we could see a gain.
You simply "make back" some of the invested Hammers by being more aggressive with pre-Math Chopping in order to fully justify the cost of a super-early Worker. In Civ IV, one needs to get over the hang-up of pre-Math Chopping. Likely, at some point, you may have never build a Warrior without first building a Barracks. If so, one can get over it. One can also get over any hang-ups about not doing pre-Math Chopping.
Wonder or Granary?
Okay, if an AI is building a Granary (or something else that isn't a Wonder), then we should be able to figure out the timing of when that build item gets completed, right? Figure that out, get a date, and then we can watch the Demographics screen around that turn to see if we spot an expected change. Hmmm, it seems that ZPV has already figured out as much, yay.
Is it at all possible that more than 1 AI started off by earning 6 Hammers?
150 / 6 = 25 turns
That number is much higher than Tachy's "AI limit" of 17 (or less) turns needed for an AI to start building a Wonder. So, it does seem very unlikely to be a Wonder.
Ahhh, shoot, I missed an entire page of messages and I have to take off now. I'll have to catch up on the rest later.
- Opening Borders before Religious lines are drawn could lead us to having to take negative Diplo hits when one AI asks us to stop trading (aka Close Borders) with their future Worst Enemy. I would hold off on Opening Borders with an AI until we see either an immediate benefit:
i. Exploring their lands when we are ready to move into their Culutural Borders
OR
ii. Can get Trade Routes
OR, have a perceived long-term benefit:
iii. Opening Borders with an AI who will only trade techs at Pleased, such as Shaka, to start accumulating positive Diplo with said AI
Espionage
I agree with setting a Weight = 1 on Asoka and leaving it that way until we see a reason to change it. For example, if you meet or or two AIs in between turns, you have no control over which AI gets the EPs. We want to be in control of this game factor, even if we "switch horses" as soon as we meet another AI, we want to be the ones to manually make that switch and not let the game decide for us.
We should probably have some "stop or pause play" discussion points built into PPPs, and "meeting an AI" sounds like a good point to pause or stop and ask for feedback.
We can also decide ahead of time what to do. My default answers would be:
- Do not Open Borders with anyone until we've agreed to do so (if you really want to Open Borders ASAP with an AI then stopping play and getting agreement to do so would be the best way for the Active Player to get their wishes)
- After setting Weight = 1 on Asoka, do not change the Espionage Weighting until we have agreement to do so. So, again, we can either have the Active Player stop play or we can leave it up to the Active Player to only stop play if the Active Player thinks that we should switch our Espionage Weighting target
Corporate Resources
It was made known in one of the threads (Maintenance? Pre-game Discussion?) that we must be able to access every instance of a Resource. So, the only possible way that we can fulfill this requirement without researching the relevant techs that reveal all of the Corporation's Resources is to ensure that an AI controls every source of the Resouce on the map and then get every source of that Resource minus 1 source from the same AI, losing 5 turns on our Victory Date (we can't take Cultural control of the last source of a Resource which we haven't revealed ourselves, which is how to avoid losing 5 turns if we have revealed the Resource). To set something like that up would require gifting every one of our Cities and then checking to see if a yield on a square changed when the square was within the AI's Cultural Borders... which sounds a bit ridiculous.
To me, that's not worth it, so we need to plan on researching every tech that unlocks every type of a Corporation's Resources for our chosen Corporation.
If what you have said is that we only need to reveal the INPUT Resources for a Coporation which generates an OUTPUT Resource, then I am in complete agreement with you.
Lower-Risk Oracle
Chop it. We pre-Math Chop it with pre-Chops spanning the course of three turns (two turns if we pre-build Roads) and using 2 Workers to complete the Chops (4 Chops at 20 Hammers each with the Marble bonus = 4 * 20 * 2 = 80 * 2 = 160, and we need 150 Hammers).
That way, less Hammers get sunk into it.
Another option is to tech Math first and only if The Oracle is available, then go for Meditation -> Priesthood and put 3 30-Hammer Chops into it (3 * 30 * 2 = 90 * 2 = 180).
Oracle-related Comments
Don't forget the "benefit" of getting to settle a Great Prophet (or to Lightbulb Theology so that we can gift it to an AI to build The Apostolic Palace for us). I quote the word "benefit" since it means delaying our future Great Scientists.
If we want Bureaucracy relatively soon (which may be less important now that we have settled 2S), we will still need Code of Laws, which means getting either Priesthood or Currency as the two optional pre-requisite techs.
So, assuming that we can get Meditation or Polytheism in trade, then it should be trivial to also get Priesthood in trade, as with all AIs knowing Priesthood, Priesthood will be tradeable by everyone post-Oracle-completion. But, without that tech trading ability, which requires an AI whom we have met to go for Alphabet, then we'll *probably* want Priesthood before going for Code of Laws -> Bureaucracy, even if we already have Currency, to save on the code of self-teching Code of Laws.
Absolute worst case, assuming that we don't invest any Hammers into The Oracle prior to connecting-up the Marble, we get a 1 Hammer : 2 Gold return on our investment in the Wonder, which is good, although at the expense of early-game Hammers that are generally even more valuable (but perhaps are less valuable when you are Imperialistic and start with Pottery for easily-whippable Settlers).
Staying Away from the Corners?
Can you please explain what you mean here? Isn't settling up against the edge of the map one way to fit in more Cities while taking up less of the Domination Land Area Limit?
Exploration
I would put a high priority on thouroughly exploring the nearby area for City locations. Even if there is a pre-built Gold Mine 20 squares away from our capital, we're not going to beeline settling there. Let an AI settle there and we'll capture the City later. We want to make sure that we are making informed decisions about where to settle Cities #2 and #3, since those decisions will have major impacts on how the game progresses.
If that means that it takes us much longer for our Scout to try and meet another AI, so be it. We'll meet the AIs eventually, but "eventually" spotting what would have been a great settling location will just leave a bitter taste in our mouths.
In particular, I would put heavy emphasis on exploring every square in a potential big fat cross that could contain any Food Resource which we reveal.
Worker's Next Action
There are several possibilities that I see:
a) Improve a 2nd Resource while building the Granary to completion
b) Improve a 2nd Resource and start building a Worker at Size 2
c) Chop a Forest and start building a Worker at Size 2, which will be 1-pop-whipped
d) Chop a Forest and 1-pop-whip the Granary
For a) and b), as our next step, we may optionally Chop a Forest into either a Worker or a Granary.
For example, with scenario b), we could improve the Copper (which definitely makes sense while slow-building a Worker) and then when our next Worker action (a Forest Chop) is completed, switch to building a Granary for a turn... doing so gets rid of the need for "annoying" micro like working a PH For instead of a G Pig for the sake of avoiding getting too much Food.
Testing is most definitely needed before proceeding with play.
Two Heads are Better Than One
In terms of Workers, even with perfect timing, it is worth noting that an improvement which takes 4 or 5 turns can come online 2 turns sooner by having a second Worker ready to improve it right away. That's a portion of the cost of the Worker already paid for by itself.
An earlier Trade Route connection between our first two Cities is another area where we could see a gain.
You simply "make back" some of the invested Hammers by being more aggressive with pre-Math Chopping in order to fully justify the cost of a super-early Worker. In Civ IV, one needs to get over the hang-up of pre-Math Chopping. Likely, at some point, you may have never build a Warrior without first building a Barracks. If so, one can get over it. One can also get over any hang-ups about not doing pre-Math Chopping.
Wonder or Granary?
Okay, if an AI is building a Granary (or something else that isn't a Wonder), then we should be able to figure out the timing of when that build item gets completed, right? Figure that out, get a date, and then we can watch the Demographics screen around that turn to see if we spot an expected change. Hmmm, it seems that ZPV has already figured out as much, yay.
Wait a second... are you saying that we have conclusively determined that no AI has potentially started off by building The Oracle?
Is it at all possible that more than 1 AI started off by earning 6 Hammers?
I think that the AIs have the same cost as us for Wonders, so...
150 / 6 = 25 turns
That number is much higher than Tachy's "AI limit" of 17 (or less) turns needed for an AI to start building a Wonder. So, it does seem very unlikely to be a Wonder.
Ahhh, shoot, I missed an entire page of messages and I have to take off now. I'll have to catch up on the rest later.
LowtherCastle
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Let's review the bidding.
and another free missionary. If we're lucky enough to be first to CoL, then that's 2-4 cities with rapid border expansions. In the early game, that's extremely non-trivial. Suppose we settle West Sugar first, then SHeepWheat. What happens?
1. West Sugar doesn't get its best food tile, rice, till border expansion.
2. Sheep/Wheat either settles a non-optimal spot, next to the lousy wheat, or requires border expansion for the sheep+wheat+fp.
So what do we do? Build monasteries? cough cough gag...
Or...we build the Oracle in Trumpster (our capital). What happens?
1. West Sugar gets Confucianism and pops its border in 2 turns.
2. Sheep/Wheat settles optimally, gets a COnfu miss for border expansion in 10t, meanwhile, the Oracle in Trumspter pops the 100 borders over the wheat tile by T30 or earlier, probably soon enough for Sheep/Wheat to immediately start improving the wheat tile...
Sometime shortly thereafter we get our GS, bulb Philo, and the beat goes on...
Meanwhile, we're only teching on our beeline. Our REX and warring is financing rapid research from an otherwise lousy tech site...
If we tech Math by hand, we can bulb Philo with our first GS and do that as soon as we get CoL. That will give us another city with 5
and another free missionary. If we're lucky enough to be first to CoL, then that's 2-4 cities with rapid border expansions. In the early game, that's extremely non-trivial. Suppose we settle West Sugar first, then SHeepWheat. What happens?1. West Sugar doesn't get its best food tile, rice, till border expansion.
2. Sheep/Wheat either settles a non-optimal spot, next to the lousy wheat, or requires border expansion for the sheep+wheat+fp.
So what do we do? Build monasteries? cough cough gag...
Or...we build the Oracle in Trumpster (our capital). What happens?
1. West Sugar gets Confucianism and pops its border in 2 turns.
2. Sheep/Wheat settles optimally, gets a COnfu miss for border expansion in 10t, meanwhile, the Oracle in Trumspter pops the 100
borders over the wheat tile by T30 or earlier, probably soon enough for Sheep/Wheat to immediately start improving the wheat tile...Sometime shortly thereafter we get our GS, bulb Philo, and the beat goes on...
Meanwhile, we're only teching on our beeline. Our REX and warring is financing rapid research from an otherwise lousy tech site...
I will admit that without Mansa a CoL trade is unlikely. But that just makes Currency that much more attractive. We get to skip medi/PH at least. Unless we plan to dick around with Aesthetics or Calendar or Construction (I'd rather not), then Currency is a great way to open up our beeline. We will never have to wait for the AI. Curr, (ideally get medi/PH now for 40% bonus) CoL, CS, (need to get Medi by now at the latest), bulb Philo, Nat, Const.
I (almost) never research Construction myself. I find that all the AI love to get this, much more than they would get Currency for us.
I (almost) never research Construction myself. I find that all the AI love to get this, much more than they would get Currency for us.
i think you meant to diss monuments, not monasteries.
Anyway I see 2 options:
1) whip a library (we need that anyway) this what I would normally do. and what I vote for.
2) consider a monument. yes, I said it! and only because the monument gets +1 happy. Otherwise no way.
Here's another beaker-saver we should keep in mind:
Once we know who got CoL (some AI oracled it?) we kiss their a$$ and get to Friendly. Not so we can trade for CoL, that will take too long. 99% of the time the AI with CoL will bulb Philo. We try to get that free in trade.
Once we know who got CoL (some AI oracled it?) we kiss their a$$ and get to Friendly. Not so we can trade for CoL, that will take too long. 99% of the time the AI with CoL will bulb Philo. We try to get that free in trade.
Actually, the absolute worst case is we tech medi/PH and don't have time to put ANY hammers in Oracle and get NO gold.
I meant that we will be conquering a lot of the map, so we have to leave some un-settled land somewhere. Those are two good corners to ignore. The AI won't settle them. Of course that's only if there isn't some vein of gold in the corners.
LowtherCastle
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According to Tachy's calculator, Asoka has an iTechKnownPercent of 20 and will trade Construction only after three of the other five AIs have it. Typically AIs have a higher Percent, so they're less likely to trade. Dhoom's interesting strategy notwithstanding, I'm not gung-ho to tech anything off our beeline. Meditation is on the Constitution beeline. Currency is on the Steam Power beeline.
Unless they're philosophical, the AI will need something on the order of 50t to get the prophet. That seems like a long time to wait for Philosophy, but maybe it will take us that long to get CS, I don't really have a feeling for that right now.
One point I was trying to make with the Beeline Analysis above is that it doesn't require too many GSes, in other words, we have GSes to spare if we run an SE. I think I forgot to mention that. That's another reason I like the idea of bulbing Math, or at least Philosophy. My basic idea is pedal to the metal. But you're absolutely right. There often is equifinality in developing the future while waiting for the AIs to do work for you.
Unless they're philosophical, the AI will need something on the order of 50t to get the prophet. That seems like a long time to wait for Philosophy, but maybe it will take us that long to get CS, I don't really have a feeling for that right now.
One point I was trying to make with the Beeline Analysis above is that it doesn't require too many GSes, in other words, we have GSes to spare if we run an SE. I think I forgot to mention that. That's another reason I like the idea of bulbing Math, or at least Philosophy. My basic idea is pedal to the metal. But you're absolutely right. There often is equifinality in developing the future while waiting for the AIs to do work for you.
I'm not sure I agree with how easy trading will be. Every AI will start with Med/Poly, then some will go for Mono, and then just about every AI will choose Iron Working.
In other words: we should research stuff off-beeline because it will benefit our empire's development now; not because it will make good trade bait.
----------------------------
I'm also finding it hard to evaluate how much techs are worth in this strange start.
Mathematics: In the very early game, we will produce stuff by whipping. Chops become needed more, once we start settling lots of extra cities, and start building wonders. We need to actually build/steal some workers to take advantage of this.
Calendar: two happies and a bit of commerce.
Currency: a little bit of commerce, plus some free AI gold a bit later.
Construction: meh.
CoL: The religion is useful. Courthouses aren't quite a priority yet. Caste System can probably wait until we don't need Slavery quite so badly.
Aesthetics->Lit: Shiny, but can wait. Ignore it if there's a super marble AI out there.
----------------------------
I don't feel I desperately need any of these at t25.
In other words: we should research stuff off-beeline because it will benefit our empire's development now; not because it will make good trade bait.
----------------------------
I'm also finding it hard to evaluate how much techs are worth in this strange start.
Mathematics: In the very early game, we will produce stuff by whipping. Chops become needed more, once we start settling lots of extra cities, and start building wonders. We need to actually build/steal some workers to take advantage of this.
Calendar: two happies and a bit of commerce.
Currency: a little bit of commerce, plus some free AI gold a bit later.
Construction: meh.
CoL: The religion is useful. Courthouses aren't quite a priority yet. Caste System can probably wait until we don't need Slavery quite so badly.
Aesthetics->Lit: Shiny, but can wait. Ignore it if there's a super marble AI out there.
----------------------------
I don't feel I desperately need any of these at t25.
LowtherCastle
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ZPV, how are you doing your T24 Oracle? (Is that Oracle movie on T24 or T25?)
LowtherCastle
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PPP T5-T15
Follow ZPV's and WT's micromanagement plan, which 1whips the granary on T12 and then builds a warrior, while continuing to grow.
Northern warrior hug the southern side of that lake until it can safely go SW to that forested area in order to scout the western side of the salt water body for city sites.
Our scout goes west to get safely into forested areas and try to find Asoka so we can look inside his culture, after OBing with him. Now that animals will be spawning, the scout will try to move as safely as possible so he can hopefully make it to other AIs as well.
We'll scout the north and south tundra and ice with stronger units.
Research: Meditation-Priesthood. We go for ZPV's T24 Oracle(CoL). An AI might beat us to it, but I think it's highly unlikely. This is the strongest move we can make. We need Meditation anyway and we can bulb Math in due time if our research potential doesn't rise significantly. I thnk going Math next leads us into a research morass, just to get the chop bonus.
Make OBs with AIs when we approach their borders.
Stop if something unusual happens.
Follow ZPV's and WT's micromanagement plan, which 1whips the granary on T12 and then builds a warrior, while continuing to grow.
Northern warrior hug the southern side of that lake until it can safely go SW to that forested area in order to scout the western side of the salt water body for city sites.
Our scout goes west to get safely into forested areas and try to find Asoka so we can look inside his culture, after OBing with him. Now that animals will be spawning, the scout will try to move as safely as possible so he can hopefully make it to other AIs as well.
We'll scout the north and south tundra and ice with stronger units.
Research: Meditation-Priesthood. We go for ZPV's T24 Oracle(CoL). An AI might beat us to it, but I think it's highly unlikely. This is the strongest move we can make. We need Meditation anyway and we can bulb Math in due time if our research potential doesn't rise significantly. I thnk going Math next leads us into a research morass, just to get the chop bonus.
Make OBs with AIs when we approach their borders.
Stop if something unusual happens.
LowtherCastle
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Yes and no.
What we have here is the eternal debate: The Oracle comes at the expense of REX. And it's usually true. What about this scenario?
For starters, REX is our strength since we're imperialistic, so we shouldn't be fearful of our ability to REX. The map is beaker-poor, so we should be concerned about our ability to research. But we still don't want to fall behind other teams. One city more is a big advantage.
Also, our tech path is non-standard and has only limited GS bulbing possibilities. That means GSes are abundant. This gives me the notion, why not leverage our ability to build an early library to bulb Math, thus allowing us to slingshot and REX? We can even add warring, if we choose, because we have the 200g and we can run 0% slider while spamming the GS. Furthermore, in the final analysis, Math is something we can usually trade for.
Note that the "count turns" system is also not absolute, that is, there can be a big difference between saving 15 turns now or later. In this case, we want to REX, War, and slingshot, if at all possible. The slingshot only happens now, leading you to your either/or stance. With our beeline requiring fewer bulbs altogether, we can consider "squandering" a bulb on Math to jumpstart our REX while still slinghotting.
You're thinking either/or, I'm thinking all of the above.
~~~
Note that my discussion involves a full analysis of the strategic implications. In my view, a counter-argument would delve into the implications of skipping the Oracle. How would our teching unfold? How would the extra hammers impact our REX? Our warring? How is that better than the Oracle approach?
Convince me. Right now, I'm convinced of what I described above, but what I really want is to be convinced of the best approach, whatever that is.
Mitchum
Deity
This brought a tear to my eye. WT is getting soft on us...
Seriously though, Dhoom brought up SH a while back and no one bit on the idea. Free border pops and +1
in every city doesn't sound like a bad deal, especially if we skip the CoL sling and the free border pops it could bring. A free monument in every city sounds much more appealing to me in this game with this leader. It seems like SH >> Oracle in this game... if we could get it.Mitchum
Deity
The biggest drawbacks I see to your plan, LC, are two (I'll also voice Jastrow's concern as #3 even though it's not my concern):
1. The Oracle is about one settler. So building the Oracle puts us behind the non-sling approach by one city by T25. Pretty big deal, really, so the sling needs to be worthwhile.
2. Building a library (good on it's own) and then running two scientists for a Math bulb also slows down REX. Sure, it increases our tech rate (at the expense of REX), but what exactly are we teching while we wait for Einstein to arrive (even at 0 slider we'll be generating 7 bpt)? It's going to have to be off our beeline, right? If we just skipped the scientists and self-teched Math I would think that we could get there at about the same time. We could run scientists when the very early REX phase is over and have a GS in time for Philosophy.
3. There's a Hammer Monster out there settled on a PH marble tile with pre-improved wet corn and three copper mines who's going to complete the Oracle on T19. I think a T24 Oracle is safe myself but it is a concern that has been raised multiple times.
GSs are abundant, but early GSs not so much. I'd rather get them as we need them than have them sitting around. We need one earlyish GS for Philosophy, right? The time to really run scientists is post Constitution anyway...
Looking at those last three techs, CS always takes a long time to self-tech, especially on a commerce-poor map. Nationalism and Constitution are going to take forever. I think we'll need 6 to 8 cities running 2 scientists each to make that work... and I guess that's where the abundance of GSs come...
I need to rethink LC's plan when my head is clear.
1. The Oracle is about one settler. So building the Oracle puts us behind the non-sling approach by one city by T25. Pretty big deal, really, so the sling needs to be worthwhile.
2. Building a library (good on it's own) and then running two scientists for a Math bulb also slows down REX. Sure, it increases our tech rate (at the expense of REX), but what exactly are we teching while we wait for Einstein to arrive (even at 0 slider we'll be generating 7 bpt)? It's going to have to be off our beeline, right? If we just skipped the scientists and self-teched Math I would think that we could get there at about the same time. We could run scientists when the very early REX phase is over and have a GS in time for Philosophy.
3. There's a Hammer Monster out there settled on a PH marble tile with pre-improved wet corn and three copper mines who's going to complete the Oracle on T19. I think a T24 Oracle is safe myself but it is a concern that has been raised multiple times.
GSs are abundant, but early GSs not so much. I'd rather get them as we need them than have them sitting around. We need one earlyish GS for Philosophy, right? The time to really run scientists is post Constitution anyway...
Looking at those last three techs, CS always takes a long time to self-tech, especially on a commerce-poor map. Nationalism and Constitution are going to take forever. I think we'll need 6 to 8 cities running 2 scientists each to make that work... and I guess that's where the abundance of GSs come...
I need to rethink LC's plan when my head is clear.
LowtherCastle
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1. My hunch is that the 2-4 border pops far more than make up for the slightly later settler.
2. I agree with you and I could go with self-teching Math instead of bulbing it, or not teching it at all and waiting to trade for it. If we wanted to bulb it, then put the scientist beakers on Metal Casting. (Granted, that's a weakness of bulbing Math.)
3. This is the only valid argument against the Oracle, in my view. Personally, I'm willing to take that chance, because to me the gains of CoL are huge. I'm still waiting for any argument on how the Math approach is huger.
2. I agree with you and I could go with self-teching Math instead of bulbing it, or not teching it at all and waiting to trade for it. If we wanted to bulb it, then put the scientist beakers on Metal Casting. (Granted, that's a weakness of bulbing Math.)
3. This is the only valid argument against the Oracle, in my view. Personally, I'm willing to take that chance, because to me the gains of CoL are huge. I'm still waiting for any argument on how the Math approach is huger.
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