We could go Math -> Med -> PH and sling Construction for an early catapult war. Or just Math -> Construction. I guess it depends who our neighbors are and how close they are. We could also go for Calendar to hook up our two known Calendar resources for +2 and a much better Sugar city.
In any event, do we really need to pick the tech after Math right now should we agree to go Math first?
I am for Math now, and wait and see beyond that. We will have WAY more information about the map, and about the tinkering from Swede by the time we have to make the next tech decision... I could certainly see Calander as the tech after math being a real option, especially if there are no happy-metals around.
If what you have said is that we only need to reveal the INPUT Resources for a Coporation which generates an OUTPUT Resource, then I am in complete agreement with you.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is what I am saying... Alu-co has ONLY COAL as an INPUT.
Lower-Risk Oracle
Chop it. We pre-Math Chop it with pre-Chops spanning the course of three turns (two turns if we pre-build Roads) and using 2 Workers to complete the Chops (4 Chops at 20 Hammers each with the Marble bonus = 4 * 20 * 2 = 80 * 2 = 160, and we need 150 Hammers).
I care less about the hammers than the beakers wasted on religious techs, and the delay in Math, and the delay in everything else also when we fail to get it.
Another option is to tech Math first and only if The Oracle is available, then go for Meditation -> Priesthood and put 3 30-Hammer Chops into it (3 * 30 * 2 = 90 * 2 = 180).
Oracle-related Comments
Don't forget the "benefit" of getting to settle a Great Prophet (or to Lightbulb Theology so that we can gift it to an AI to build The Apostolic Palace for us). I quote the word "benefit" since it means delaying our future Great Scientists.
I would view that as a disadvantage, not a benifit.
Absolute worst case, assuming that we don't invest any Hammers into The Oracle prior to connecting-up the Marble, we get a 1 Hammer : 2 Gold return on our investment in the Wonder, which is good, although at the expense of early-game Hammers that are generally even more valuable (but perhaps are less valuable when you are Imperialistic and start with Pottery for easily-whippable Settlers).
With 200 in the bank, the fail gold has a long pay-back time... Back-ending paybacks is bad at the start, because of the very sharp snowball effect... And again, more than the hammers, it is the wasted beakers and the delay in math that I dont like.
I would put a high priority on thouroughly exploring the nearby area for City locations. Even if there is a pre-built Gold Mine 20 squares away from our capital, we're not going to beeline settling there. Let an AI settle there and we'll capture the City later.
i think you meant to diss monuments, not monasteries.
Anyway I see 2 options:
1) whip a library (we need that anyway) this what I would normally do. and what I vote for.
2) consider a monument. yes, I said it! and only because the monument gets +1 happy. Otherwise no way.
I dont think monastaries are as bad as their reputation... I have been known to build one once in a while, but yes... Library whipping/chopping is my usuall recipe.
PPP T5-T15
Follow ZPV's and WT's micromanagement plan, which 1whips the granary on T12 and then builds a warrior, while continuing to grow.
Northern warrior hug the southern side of that lake until it can safely go SW to that forested area in order to scout the western side of the salt water body for city sites.
Our scout goes west to get safely into forested areas and try to find Asoka so we can look inside his culture, after OBing with him. Now that animals will be spawning, the scout will try to move as safely as possible so he can hopefully make it to other AIs as well.
We'll scout the north and south tundra and ice with stronger units.
Research: Meditation-Priesthood. We go for ZPV's T24 Oracle(CoL). An AI might beat us to it, but I think it's highly unlikely. This is the strongest move we can make. We need Meditation anyway and we can bulb Math in due time if our research potential doesn't rise significantly. I thnk going Math next leads us into a research morass, just to get the chop bonus.
BTW, can everyone who think we are going to get the Oracle on turn 24 or 24, or whatever explain to me how they interpret the sentences:
"However, for gameplay and preventing Oracle from being a make-or-break decision for the players, you have convinced me that Priesthood should NOT be included for the human players."
Posted by Swede... How would removing priesthood lower the make of break decision if the Oracle was at all gettable now... To me it is a clear indication that IF we had had priesthood, and went directly for Oracle that some teams would have gotten it, and others not...
Assume the same start, and give us priesthood, then we could start Oracle on turn 1, and get it when? I have not tested, but I would guess around turn 17 or so? Certainly before 20....
To me, the above sentense means that KCD-Swede, presumably based on actual testing experience, is expecting the Oracle to go in that say 16-20 turn range, leaving some teams with it and others without... So he removed Preisthood to make sure no-one gets it.
Movie t25. In short, I use the granary start, then 2whip a worker, then 2whip a settler on t23, and the overflow + 1 chop are enough to finish the Oracle in 1 turn.
We do need to be careful to stack up overflow. I'll try moving around the turns putting regular hammers into the worker and settler to see if that date can be moved forward a turn.
EDIT: It's really tricky, and I'm struggling to reproduce it.
EDIT2: Ok, the trick was to whip the worker from pop4-2 with 25 food in the bank, so that we grow back to size 3 even while building a worker.
Full notes to come once I've optimised it.
EDIT3: added strikethroughs to everything
Here's the full micro summary for Oracle, from the turn we whip the granary onwards.
Please note, the governor will try to do almost none of this, and everything is very tight.
Code:
Turn pop food.... hammers...... tiles.................Other
t12 2 8/24 +6 60/60 +5 Pig, Copper (1pop whip Granary)
t13 2 14/24 +0 0/60 +16 Pig, Copper (Overflow into Worker)
t14 2 14/24 +7 0/15 +1 Pig, FP (Switch to warrior)
t15 2 21/24 +9 1/15 +1 Pig, Corn
t16 3 18/26 +10 2/15 +1 Pig, Corn, FP (Worker moves SW of city (important - not the forest))
t17 2 15/24 +0 76/60 +11 Pig, Copper (2pop whip Worker. Worker builds road)
t18 2 15/24 +0 0/100 +54 Pig, Copper (Overflow into Settler; finish road, start quarry.)
t19 2 15/24 +9 3/15 +1 Pig, Corn (Switch back to warrior)
t20 3 12/26 +9 4/15 +5 Pig, Corn, Copper
t21 3 21/26 +5 9/15 +8 Pig, Copper, Marble (Quarry done, start road on marble)
t22 2 14/24 +0 144/100 +16 Copper, Marble (2pop whip Settler, road done. Move first worker to forest. Warrior walks to the south)
t23 2 14/24 +1 0/150 +96 Copper, Marble (Move other worker to the same forest, start chopping, settler walks.)
t24 2 15/24 +1 96/150 +56 Copper, Marble (Chop finishes, settler plants 2N of sheep (or similar location))
Northern warrior hug the southern side of that lake until it can safely go SW to that forested area in order to scout the western side of the salt water body for city sites.
Our scout goes west to get safely into forested areas and try to find Asoka so we can look inside his culture, after OBing with him. Now that animals will be spawning, the scout will try to move as safely as possible so he can hopefully make it to other AIs as well.
We'll scout the north and south tundra and ice with stronger units.
Yes, I think leave the tundra for now. Hopefully the barb cities will mean we have reduced barbarian spawns, since their defenders count towards the unit cap.
Research: Meditation-Priesthood. We go for ZPV's T24 Oracle(CoL). An AI might beat us to it, but I think it's highly unlikely. This is the strongest move we can make. We need Meditation anyway and we can bulb Math in due time if our research potential doesn't rise significantly. I thnk going Math next leads us into a research morass, just to get the chop bonus.
I don't see the value in immediate Mathematics (we don't have enough workers to chop out an army on t30), so I don't mind the risk on the Oracle so much.
I care less about the hammers than the beakers wasted on religious techs, and the delay in Math, and the delay in everything else also when we fail to get it.
I don't understand "the delay in everything else." What is everything else? To me, it's our tech beeline and nothing else, unless you're including REX, but we can REX without Math. To me, Calendar and Currency are wastes of beakers par excellence. This tells me I failed to communicate well when I posted my Minimal Tech Path Analysis:
We have three beelines plus whatever Democracy brings: 1) COnstitution; 2) Democracy; 3) Steam Power. Barring omissions, here's the bare minimum:
Code:
[B]COnstitution[/B]
406 Mathematics
568 Code of Laws
1300 Civil Service
130 Meditation
1300 Philosophy
2925 Nationalism
3250 Constitution
----
9879 Total Final Beakers
Code:
[B]Democracy[/B]
731 Paper
2925 Education
487 Alphabet
731 Metal Casting
1137 Machinery
2600 Printing Press
2275 Liberalism
4550 Democracy
----
15680 Total Final Beakers
Code:
[B]Steam Power[/B]
487 Monarchy
1137 Feudalism
1625 Guilds
650 Currency
1137 Banking
2925 Replaceable Parts
1950 Gunpowder
568 Construction
1625 Engineering
2925 Chemistry
5200 Steam Power
----
20229 Total Final Beakers
Analysis
1. This includes LIberalism for the Democracy slingshot. Add 97 beakers for PHood for an Oracle slingshot of CoL.
2. GS bulbing possiblities include: Philosophy; Education (2); Printing Press (1 or 2); Chemistry (2).
3. Additionally, we could bulb Math or Paper. We might also want to bulb Astro (2), maybe Optics, as part of capturing Aluminum Corp if trans-oceanic.
4. That's a minimum of 6 GSes, 5 after we can revolt to Representation, which isn't many, especially considering a specialist economy is almost surely part of the fastest beeline.
COnclusion
If Mathematics takes upwards of 30 turns and we consider it vital asap, I'd be in favor of bulbing it. 30 turns at normal speed is a massive savings for a single GS bulb. If we slingshot CoL, then using castes we'll be able to pump out the bulb for Philosophy while teching Civil Service.
My focus was on the Math bulb, but this analysis goes far deeper.
Assumptions
1. We want to REX and war, as WastinTime concluded.
2. Math (406b) and Calendar (568b) are drastically more expensive than basic worker techs, such as Agriculture and Mining.
Key points
1. Our beeline includes very few techs.
2. Math and CoL (568b) come very early on our path and block further progress.
3. CoL is hard to get in trade, so we'll almost surely have to research it ourselves.
4. Calendar and Currency (650b) are not on our Constitution/Democracy beeline and they are easy to get in trade. Their cost/benefit is simply too high to justify teching them.
5. Math is early on our beeline and blocks further progress but provides only +50% chops and is easy to get in trade.
My Basic Conclusion
0. Both Math and CoL are early on our beeline and block further progress. Chances are we won't get either in trade so we have to tech them both.
1. If we tech Math next, then we'll have to go for CoL afterwards. We have gained the ability to chop +50% on ~T30. We have lowered our chances of founding Confucianism. Our new cities expand borders verrrrry slowly (slow build monument and wait 10t).
2. If we try for the CoL slingshot, we have a chance to found Confucianism, giving us instant border expansion in Sheep-2N, plus a Confu Missionary. Plus, we have Meditation so we can now bulb Philo for one or two more border expansions. If we miss on the Oracle, we have delayed our ability to chop +50% by X turns. We can still tech CoL next if the Oracle AI didn't take CoL and bulb Math.
In short, I think we should tech CoL via Priesthood no matter what, so why not try for the slingshot?
For me, this was the most important thing you said. I was waiting for an answer to ZPV's question about seeing hammer jump from 6 to 12 (implying we will lose Oracle) which I paraphrase as the extreme example: If someone Oracles CoL on turn 6! and we've already locked in Meditation beakers, would you continue with Medi/PH CoL, bulb Math even with no chance of Oracle or a religion? Or would you want to switch to Math?
Similarly, would you regret going Medi? and wish you had gone math?
My talk about 'absolutes' and vetoes so far has been mostly teasing. I'm keeping an open mind, and I have been seriously considering the Math bulb, but I would like to know your response to the questions above first.
I'd really like to know if you are being lured by the (virtually impossible) chance that we get Oracle or a religion from CoL....or are you really just looking for the shortest way to Constitution.
I disagree with Jastrow and ZPV on OB. I want it ASAP. It's very unlikely that it will hurt us in any way, but every turn we delay OB could be a turn that we delay Asoka:Friendly. It's not hard to get him Friendly in 50 turns. (+1 peace, +2 OB, 2 resources, 4 trade, 1 liberation, 1-2 religion)
This could be the key to getting several monopoly techs : MC, Machinery, Philo, Curr, Calendar, Monarchy, etc.
I disagree with Jastrow and ZPV on OB. I want it ASAP. It's very unlikely that it will hurt us in any way, but every turn we delay OB could be a turn that we delay Asoka:Friendly. It's not hard to get him Friendly in 50 turns. (+1 peace, +2 OB, 2 resources, 4 trade, 1 liberation, 1-2 religion)
This could be the key to getting several monopoly techs : MC, Machinery, Philo, Curr, Calendar, Monarchy, etc.
For me, this was the most important thing you said. I was waiting for an answer to ZPV's question about seeing hammer jump from 6 to 12 (implying we will lose Oracle) which I paraphrase as the extreme example: If someone Oracles CoL on turn 6! and we've already locked in Meditation beakers, would you continue with Medi/PH CoL, bulb Math even with no chance of Oracle or a religion? Or would you want to switch to Math?
Similarly, would you regret going Medi? and wish you had gone math?
I'd really like to know if you are being lured by the (virtually impossible) chance that we get Oracle or a religion from CoL....or are you really just looking for the shortest way to Constitution.
I don't know the code on an AI choosing his slingshot tech. Is it guaranteed he'll take CoL? If he doesn't, I'd still rather self-tech CoL and get Confu before Math. Then we see how fast the AIs are teching. Maybe we trade for Math and bulb Philo. Maybe we bulb Math. Whatever.
I'm not sure why you think Oracle or CoL first is virtually impossible. My imperfect view of the code is that there is a low probablility of the AI even having a chance to build the Oracle. In other words, my understanding is that RNG favors building archers, settlers, and maybe some buildings first. Yes, I believe it's an RNG factor, but I don't think the AI says, "Damn, tons of hammers and Marble and Industrious, I'm going to beeline the Oracle." He only says that if he gets past the code RNGed to build archers and settlers. (Tachy would know better.)
Well, math is part of the beeling, and we can always trade for Priesthood (and likely for meditation), so I dont follow the argument against math...
In any event, it is unlikely that we will stick to the strick bee-line. We will need some additional techs (calender, currency, etc.) to properlly sustain the empire.
I do think the WT's question is very correct... we could even rephrase it.. If Oracle had been pre-built and was visible in the wonders screen at turn zero (or T1, whenever it appears), would we be considering meditation now?
If the answer to that question is no, then me question about how do we interpret the comment by KCD that I posted above becomes relevant.
I like what I'm seeing. It appears that we're zeroing in on a plan that has some momentum. To summarize:
1. We do not want to research any techs off our intended beelines (Constitution being the first) if we can avoid it.
2. There is a very high probability that we'll have to self-tech CoL and Math no matter what we do since both are blocking techs for our beeline and CoL is very hard to get. So we just have to choose which one to start with.
3. Of the two options, CoL before Math seems to have the bigger short-term benefit. In other words, +50% on chops when you only have 1 to 3 workers isn't such a big deal but "free" border pops and a shot at a religion is.
4. Since we're going CoL first and PH is on the way, we may as well take a shot at the Oracle if it's still available (ZPV's T24 plan which includes an early second worker). If the Oracle is gone but Confucianism is still available, we consider self-teching CoL.
5. Ideal tech path is Meditation -> PH -> Math -> CS with the CoL sling happening while we're self-teching Math. This delays a Math beeline by ~15 turns (brown number) which isn't the end of the world. It may mean that we have to chop a forest or two pre-Math, but if it makes sense to do so, we do it.
6. We REX like mad after the Oracle to get all of the good spots near our starting location.
7. At some point, we go to war. This is the biggest question in my mind at the moment because I'm not sure which unit we'd use. We can assume that all of the AIs will have metal hooked up by ~T30, so axes/swords vs. axes/swords/archers doesn't appeal to me. If we have ivory we could elepult but that would require getting Construction in trade, which is a bit hard to do early. Or we could try to open up macemen (plus cats) after Constitution, but I fear that they would come rather late to the party but it may be our best option. Which unit(s) do others see us using in our first war?
I'm fine with OB ASAP with Asoka AND putting all EPs on him right now with the option to change them if it makes sense later.
If we are planning to get Asoka to Friendly, then I agree with opening borders now... I had assumed that since he was our nearest neighbour that he would be our worker steal target. If that is the case, with the rules of this scenario, he will not be friendly anywhere near turn 50...
Another idea to through out there is alphabeth first... It is a bit of a compromise position... We would see if the Oracle goes super early. If not, then we could trade for Priesthood, and force out a quick oracle... Questimating, I would think we could do alpha-trade-Hospital around turn 35 or so?
There is no way that KCD could guarantee that a super buff AI would go for the Oracle early. There is just too much randomness in what they chose. No one has ever shown an example or test where an AI started a wonder right out of the gate. In fact, in the few cheat mode test games I ran, no one started a wonder until after T20 having built an archer, settler, granary and most often a barracks too. If they do get a "start a wonder" roll, isn't there just as good a chance that they will start the GW or SH?
I still contend that a T24/T25 Oracle has a very high probability. Of course, there is a risk but with risk comes reward... and I think the risk part of that equation is quite small on the Oracle.
I'd like to call a vote on the great Oracle debate. We seem to be talking in circles. LC added some new arguments to this debate in his latest posts but I'm not hearing anything new from the anti-Oracle side. So I assume that all of the information is on the table at this point and we should be able to vote on the following:
1. Med -> PH vs. Math
2. Gun for the Oracle or opportunistically pick it up later if available
These two are related but they are also different. At least getting a vote on #1 allows us to advance the game.
They start with PH and can pick CoL first. They love CoL when the religion is still available. Even if they don't pick it free, someone will get it before us.
RE: oracle, swede will not let one team blow everyone away with an Oracle gamble.
Snacks are good in moderation... Like everything else, while this is good in principle, there is such a thing as too pure...
2. There is a very high probability that we'll have to self-tech CoL and Math no matter what we do since both are blocking techs for our beeline and CoL is very hard to get. So we just have to choose which one to start with.
That asks the question above... Would you pick meditation if Oracle was pre-built.
3. Of the two options, CoL before Math seems to have the bigger short-term benefit. In other words, +50% on chops when you only have 1 to 3 workers isn't such a big deal but "free" border pops and a shot at a religion is.
I think you are greatly under-estimating the value of math. In my run, settling on the sugar, I actually had spare worker turns at two workers (because of whipping).
4. Since we're going CoL first and PH is on the way, we may as well take a shot at the Oracle if it's still available (ZPV's T24 plan which includes an early second worker). If the Oracle is gone but Confucianism is still available, we consider self-teching CoL.
How will we know which religions founding techs are still virgin? Remember that choose religion is set.
5. Ideal tech path is Meditation -> PH -> Math -> CS with the CoL sling happening while we're self-teching Math. This delays a Math beeline by ~15 turns (brown number) which isn't the end of the world. It may mean that we have to chop a forest or two pre-Math, but if it makes sense to do so, we do it.
7. At some point, we go to war. This is the biggest question in my mind at the moment because I'm not sure which unit we'd use. We can assume that all of the AIs will have metal hooked up by ~T30, so axes/swords vs. axes/swords/archers doesn't appeal to me. If we have ivory we could elepult but that would require getting Construction in trade, which is a bit hard to do early. Or we could try to open up macemen (plus cats) after Constitution, but I fear that they would come rather late to the party but it may be our best option. Which unit(s) do others see us using in our first war?
The only options I see as likely are horse archers (if we can control the metal to prevent spears), construction, or waiting quite a bit later... This is part of the reason why a quick rex is essential. Getting hemmed in would suck.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
and a much better Sugar city.
)
