SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

[Mitchum]

The way I view early food, especially starting with slavery, is that 22/24/26 food = 30 hammers.

IN any case, in my tests, I've found two things:

1. We want to improve and work those tiles asap. As fast as the worker is, so fast we want to grow, plus the 1whip, or faster.
2. We want to 1whip the granary asap.

The best start is an optimization of tthose two.

I think that the tests have to run further than 1-popping the granary ASAP to show which option is the best.

I was looking for where I posted the results of my test game but I can't find it. Looking at my cryptic notes, I settled 2S and improved pigs -> copper -> corn -> marble (then hook3e it up). I 2-popped the granary on T14 with max OF into a settler. I then switched to building something else (MP warrior I think) while growing to 4 pops again so I could 2-pop the settler with OF into the Oracle (finished T28/T29). It seemed to work pretty well but needs to be compared to one-popping the granary ASAP. With pigs + corn, the city grows damn fast even without a granary...

Regarding the comparison of yields and thinking that a 6-yield copper is better than a 5-yield dry corn pre granary, I don't think it's as simple as that. Working the food lets you grow 2 or more turns sooner allowing you to "catch up" to the raw yield you'd get from working the copper first. None of this talk really matters though. In the end, the test games will tell us which approach is the best with respect to yields, research, REX, etc. It's hard to argue with results...

So this is when everyone should run a couple of tests trying different things. Change the settling location, worker MM, whip timing, build queue, etc. However, do NOT work any tiles that are not currently visible on the screen. If you settle city #2, it should be settled somewhere that we can see now and only work the tiles that we can see now. This makes comparison of test games easier. I suggest that we play the games out to ~T30 which should be more than enough time to finish the Oracle unless someone is trying for a CS or post-Math sling...

Even if you are not happy with your test run, at least by having done it you'll better understand and be able to contribute to the discussions about which path seems the best.

As usual, I'll post comparisons of the various test runs so that we can narrow down to one or two openings and focus on improving them. Of course, all test runs will be out the window in 5 turns when LC discovers a gold resource or something similar, but at least we can move forward with the best information that we have at the moment.

The other option, if we all agree, is to play out the next 5 turns without selecting a tech (as suggested by WT). However, that would require us to all agree on where to settle and which tile to improve first... Then, our testing will be better as it will represent 5 more turns of map knowledge.

EDIT: double xpost with WT.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Note: Murky Waters developed a VETO. It is rarely used but available at any time. Any player can VETO any decision, if they feel really strongly about it and it's important. The point is not to filibuster the team, but to call a TIME OUT and demand further discussion on an important matter.

WastinTime sort of threatened a veto earlier when he said he doesn't want us to chop more than once pre-Math. That's an example of a veto.

Just wanted to point that out after posting that I reserve the right to play in 24 hours. I would, but not if someone demands a bit more discussion.

 

[WastinTime]

Yea, I'm gonna wait for the 5 turn opening to run my tests (which I pretty much already said in my xpost)

 

[Mitchum]

I'm for Settle 2S, granary, pigs first.

I agree with this approach. Of course, we can't select a tech yet. Obvious, but LC is a little slow sometimes.

We also have to agree on the general direction to scout.

If we can get an agreement on that, I'd like to see you play today. Once we have some of the surrounding area revealed, we can run some more realistic tests out to 6 cities.

Yes, any testing we do now will have to be redone once we see what's around and have a better idea of where cities #2 through #4 are likely to go.

One thing we have not talked about for a while is barbarians. We do need a safety plan to deal with potential axes and spears...

I recall Dhoom talking about possibly circling the warrior back to be an MP in the capital. Since map knowledge is so critical and since this warrior is likely to be a long way from home, I'd prefer to have him either continue exploring or spawn bust and to have the capital build it's own MP unit. It takes something like 2 turns once the copper is mined and marble is quarried.

 

[Mitchum]

Note: Murky Waters developed a VETO. It is rarely used but available at any time. Any player can VETO any decision, if they feel really strongly about it and it's important. The point is not to filibuster the team, but to call a TIME OUT and demand further discussion on an important matter.

I'd like to VETO the ability to VETO.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I agree with Mitchum simply because my tests have shown that there are multiple MM options precisely in T0-5. Working the fp straight though is almost certainly non-optimal with pigs-copper, because a few more hammers gets the granary whipped more optimally. I haven't run pigs-corn yet.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'd like to VETO the ability to VETO.

Vetoed.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm for Settle 2S, granary, pigs first.

If we can get an agreement on that, I'd like to see you play today. Once we have some of the surrounding area revealed, we can run some more realistic tests out to 6 cities.

Yea, I'm gonna wait for the 5 turn opening to run my tests (which I pretty much already said in my xpost)

Seraiel and maybe some others haven't agreed to 2S. I'd like to hear from them.

Otherwise, I'll try to get my testing done asap and play today if all that comes to fruition.

I surely like your forward push. I think it can help us maintain strong interest in the game.

 

[Mitchum]

Yea, I'm gonna wait for the 5 turn opening to run my tests (which I pretty much already said in my xpost)

There are two things that could derail this:

1. If someone is against settling 2S. I'm not but there we some that were opposed a few days ago. That may have changed.

2. If someone wants to improve the copper before the pigs. I prefer improving the pigs first but it's possible that improving the copper first and getting a quick 30H into the granary allows it to be 1-pop whipped sooner which may snowball into a better opening. I have not tried this but it may turn out better in the long run. I think that this should at least be tested before we advance 5 turns.

Things that we could do as soon as we have agreement that require no testing include:

1. Moving the worker.
2. Moving the scout.
3. Moving the warrior.
4. Revolting to Slavery.

Moving the units would give us a little bit more information and may turn up something unexpected that could change where we settle...

EDIT: Triple xpost with LC.

 

[WastinTime]

WastinTime sort of threatened a veto earlier when he said he doesn't want us to chop more than once pre-Math. That's an example of a veto.

For the record, I preach (sometimes to the point of annoyance) "no pre-math chops" and "no more workers" and "build failgold/wealth" and "no monuments", etc. constantly to try to steer players from these pitfalls. However, I'm not that strict about them (I give in all the time) and I certainly wouldn't waste my Veto I do however, like the Veto idea. Good suggestion.

Side note: in a recent culture gauntlet (or BoTM I can't recall) I was preaching "never bulb Philo", then circumstances made me do just that in my game.

And while we're on the subject, if we open with Math (my current suggestion), then we should have NO pre-math chops this game

 

[WastinTime]

I agree with Mitchum simply because my tests have shown that there are multiple MM options precisely in T0-5. Working the fp straight though is almost certainly non-optimal with pigs-copper, because a few more hammers gets the granary whipped more optimally. I haven't run pigs-corn yet.

I agree too. I'm also running a few quick tests, but not out to T30 or trying to settle a 2nd city.

 

[WastinTime]

2. If someone wants to improve the copper before the pigs.

That's no longer possible if we settle 2S.

I want to settle a city on the West Sugar too, so SIP ruins that (among other things)

 

[Mitchum]

I totally missed the PPP, LC. Did you edit a post and add that?

In any event, I'm not sure that moving the settler before the other units makes sense. In other words, is there anything that the warrior or worker could find on T0 that would pull us away from 2S? Maybe not but 99% of the time it's better to move the other units first before moving the settler. This game is totally different though because we start with extra map knowledge and a lot of additional techs.

 

[Mitchum]

That's no longer possible if we settle 2S.

Technicalities!

 

[Mitchum]

I generated a few maps and all had similar score values for land and pop as our actual game (around 1400 land and 710 pop) which leads me to believe that KCD didn't do a ton of alterartions to the map like adding a big inland sea or something similar.

I also ran a game forward in cheat mode. The AIs all went for an early religion and then IW once the religions were founded. Early builds were all archers and one work boat followed by settlers or granaries and then barracks, walls, etc. Second cities started on monuments. No wonders started all the way to T30.

So, I think a CoL sling is very safe. We'd have to get very unlucky to have an AI get it pre-T30. There are just too many other things that the AI likes to build like early barracks, walls and archers that make a wonder roll quite unlikely. If they do go for a wonder, I would suspect that the GW or SH would have a higher probability that the Oracle but I can't back that up with fact.

PS. I accidentally posted this in the sign-up thread. I hope no one saw it...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Testing Needed
I still haven't found the time for testing, but I still think that it can be a strong play to:
i. SIP
ii. Oracle Calendar
iii. Build a 2nd Worker before a Settler
iv. Do some Forest "culling" (Chopping the Forests which actually improve our chances of Forest regrowth considerably... there are 3 such sites that I already identified where Chopping the Forest does not remove any chances of regrowth while also adding 3 chances, for a net of +3 chances per Forest Chop)
v. Settle 1 square adjacent to the Marble to grab the Pig Resource and possibly share the capital's Corn (it depends upon what a southward-headed Scout finds)


Early Calendar with SIP is going to be stronger than super early Currency, hands down, due to Currency's strength not shining until we have several Cities, not providing extra sources of Whippable Happiness like Calendar will, and the delay for AIs getting Alphabet anyway. Besides, Calendar might be better to trade to the AIs if we can get Trade Routes set up, as we can benefit when an AI has 2 copies of a Resource, but we do NOT benefit when an AI has 2 Trade Routes per City (other than the potential benefit or loss from speeding up an AI's Commerce intake).

We should make sure that we're comfortable with the Oracle date, which is the semi-uncontrollable variable (we could rely on the AIs' behaviour not not target Wonders super early to help control this variable--we could even declare war on an AI early on, but I don't really want to declare war that early).

 

[LowtherCastle]

Dhoom, I don't think we want to chance delaying the Oracle that much. Furhtermore, if we're going to tech math first, I'd rather just go for the CS slingshot. But I think this start begs for massive REX with a quick Oracle squeezed in. We don't want to delay REX any more than necessary.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I want to settle a city on the West Sugar too, so SIP ruins that (among other things)

Would you want to farm or cottage the fp?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I totally missed the PPP, LC. Did you edit a post and add that?

Between posting in the maintenance thread and missing my PPP, either not enough or too much tang, Mitchum. No, I didn't edit a post. You missed it.

I even set my Got it apart in a separate post.

 

[WastinTime]

Would you want to farm or cottage the fp?

cottage. I (almost never farm floodplains.