SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

[ZPV]

I've got a little time today so I'll run through the plan now too.

Regarding worker #2, while I agree with WT that 1 worker per city is a bit too much, in general I feel that 1 worker for 3 cities is a bit light, especially when city #3 is going to be quite a ways away and could benefit from a longish road to get the TR plus gain access to the gold resource. On the turn we bulb Math, we're going to wish we had 3 to 5 workers, so getting a second one out to either get ahead of or keep up with city growth and TR connections is a good thing in general.

Regarding the sugar farm, I think testing will show whether or not these improvements pay for themselves or not, right? If, by farming the sugar we are able to snowball that extra food into something worthwhile, then it's worth it to farm them. Will it lead to faster REX from city #2? Or is there a better improvement that can be shared by our two cities (like the FP cottage?). I suggest that we not jump to any conclusions until we have evidence of which works better for this setup.

Edit: xpost with LC

For an accelerated start like this, I put my worker benchmark at 6 cities and about 10-11 workers.
EDIT: ok, scrub one or two off that, since we'll be whipping out an army.
Don't ask me how many I'd want for this scenario on quick speed.
The sugar farms were somewhat pie-in-the-sky. I don't really expect to build two of them, but I think we'll work at least the river sugar fairly consistently, and I value the farm on it enough to pay for the worker turns (of course, not over bigger resource improvements, particularly useful chops, etc).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here's a comparison of building a Monument in place of an Axeman in Trumpster and delaying the Great Scientist by 1 turn:

Spoiler :

Note that we fall behind on Commerce by a bit, due to the later Trade Route connection, but Code of Laws will come in at the same time, given current estimates.

If we can find an AI with whom to Open Borders, we can gain +2 Commerce back, though (since we otherwise don't get the two Trade Routes being connected-up until after the turn ends on the turn when the Road gets built, but can get the Trade Routes on the same turn that the Road gets built by triggering the Trade Route calculation due to Opening Borders with another player).

Meanwhile, we're getting our Settler 3 three turns sooner.


Healthiness in Trumpster
What should be noted is that we're going to to want to Road our G Corn at some point, if we want Trumpster to grow to Size 6 without Unhealthiness. So, rather than building a partial Cottage or Farm on Trumpster-NE's G Riv square, we could build a Road on the G Corn on our way to the Marble, as an option, otherwise we'll be unhealthy once we hit Size 6 and thus we'll be at -1 Food, so racing to improve the Marble ASAP doesn't sound as amazing given then loss of Food we'd suffer).


City 2 Where?
It could be argued that we could still settle at the East Lake location by following the "Monument instead of an Axeman in Trumpster" approach, gaining a bit more Commerce in the short term, losing a bit more Gold due to Maintenance in the short term when at Size 1 (at Size 2, we lose the same Gold to Maintenance for either of the City 2 locations), and can work the G Corn square in exchange for 1 Forest Chop and City 2 being a decent City instead of a monumental powerhouse of a Heroic Epic City later.

Personally, I don't mind settling a Rice City as City 3, as it would get us Trade Routes with Asoka and would help us to "expand toward" the Gold City location. But, given the team's preference for settling at the Gold City location for City 3 and then probably south-west Horse (if Asoka hasn't stolen it) or Wheat + Sheep next, it will be a long time before we settle that Rice Resource, so I actually prefer putting that Rice Resource in City 2, while benefitting from the extra Food from settling on top of the Sugar Resource, while also not having to steal squares from Trumpster when Trumpster is able to work them.

 

[WastinTime]

Interesting. What your game makes crystal clear is that I'm not getting very much use out of the granary in city 2 (probably because Trumpster is stealing the corn at just the wrong time, but also because I screwed up my calculations on how much food would be in the bank in the posted MM).

In a preliminary attempt to address those failings, I've come up with the attached save.
It's not really the finished product - I think I can squeeze extra hammers into Trumpster and extra food into City 2 with some other changes - but if I can't find a way to utilize the granary better I'm inclined to agree with you.

(Comparison: the settler will now walk on t36 and sits at 61/100 instead of 42; city 2 has an extra 4 food and 8 hammers, and I have one forest less)

You neglected to mention how many beakers are in CoL. That's mainly how I measure progress. More so than food/hammers.

 

[ZPV]

You neglected to mention how many beakers are in CoL. That's mainly how I measure progress. More so than food/hammers.

I did. In fact, I didn't even look at how many beakers are in CoL in either save.
I guess I don't care so much about a handful of beakers at this point in the game, or measure my progress that way.

Here's my better comparison game (in which Trumpster only needs to steal the corn back for one turn):

Trumpster 14/30f; 62/100h vs 15/30; 42/100
City 2 20/26f (+7 this turn); 9 hammers vs 12/26; 5h
CoL 344b (instead of 350)
Improvements: -1 forest, -1 cottage.

As far as I can tell, the food-hammer differences are about one pre-math forest's worth.
The question is, are those extra food-hammers going into useful things?
When it's one turn in the worker in City 2, and two turns in the settler from Trumpster, my answer is "I think so".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: I think we'll all be happier if we switch the worker and settler around -> worker in Trumpster and settler in City 2, to put less food into the settler.
The projection for Trumpster would then be to grow building the next Axe, and whip Settler 4 when it's done.

 

[ZPV]

Ok, I'm back full time and I'm looking more closely at the situation. I do see the possible value of the chop in this specific case where Trumpster can't really use the corn for a while so we really want city 2 to use it now...making the granary more attractive. Let me run a full test of the PPP real quick here and get back to you.

RE: city for the GS. I did say long-term plan, so of course it can do some heavy whipping for now. I just want to point out that this city might need to prepare for this purpose eventually. Maybe not, maybe wheat/sheep can do it.

Ahh. I get you on the GS. One future I can happily enough see for the city is whipping it to the bone, and then running the two scientists at size 3 to squeeze the very last of its life out.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Worker-Stealing Approach
Turn 32, 2720 BC Stats
Trumpster
Size 5, 18/30 Food
30 + 100 + 6 + 25 + 5 = 166 Hammers
30 Hammers in a Monument
108/100 Hammers in a Settler (6 Hammers of which will overflow)
25 Hammers in an Archer (to help guard our Quarrying Worker from Barbs and to spawn-bust the south... unlike in our test game, we won't see Barb Warriors, since the test game lacks techs for the Barbs)
5 Hammers in a Barracks

City 2 (West Sugar location)
Size 1, 17//22 Food (grow just in time to whip a 3rd unit before executing a Worker-stealing operation)
35 + 40 = 75 Hammers
35 Hammers in a Spearman that is as far west as Asoka's northern Horse Resource at the start of this turn
40/35 Hammers in an Axeman... the remainder will overflow into another Axeman that can be whipped as soon as the overflow Hammers "resolve" themselves in the next Axeman

340/568 Flasks in Code of Laws (could be 340 + 2 = 342 if we Open Borders with another AI at the right time)

Other:
+2 Forests (didn't settle on one and didn't Chop one into a Granary)
5/10 turns in making an FP Cottage into a Hamlet
Corn is Roaded
partial G Road 1SW of Trumpster
1 Worker turn put into Quarrying the Marble as of the start of this turn
1 turn of delay in getting our Great Scientist compared to hiring 2 Scientists right away (9 turns to go as of turn 32)


Micro comments:
Growth is king (given a Granary, Happiness room, and plenty of Food, like Trumpster has available). We grew Trumpster to Size 7 and 2-pop-whipped the Settler.
West Sugar couldn't always work the FP + G Riv Sugar, so when it couldn't work both (Trumpster needed the FP to grow to Size 7 one turn faster), it worked the Lake for extra Commerce, as extra Hammers are not needed

 

[Dhoomstriker]

One future I can happily enough see for the city is whipping it to the bone, and then running the two scientists at size 3 to squeeze the very last of its life out.

Or, we whip City 2, gift it, recapture it, and then notice that Whipping Unhappiness has magically disappeared, allowing us to whip even more stuff, muahahaha.

(All with the benefit of getting away with a free Worker Stealing opportunity relative to teams who didn't think to do so.)

 

[WastinTime]

I really like the general worker stealing idea. Can you explain why it has to be West Sugar and not EastLake?
And without knowing where Asoka is going to settle or what tiles the worker will be at make that quite a gamble.

Maybe a different city can be used for this gift/steal idea.

 

[ZPV]

Can someone tell me whether they see merit in Dhoom's Sugar city + worker steal approach, please?
I find it hard to see past the undeveloped city 2, but it is also fairly late for me.
EDIT: XPost lol


LC: A similar train of thought goes for the Monument variations. If there's a magical glitter ball out there, please show me. I can't quite replace the hammers from the Monument - moving the corn back to the capital from the 2nd city feels an awful lot like giving with one hand and taking away with the other.

 

[WastinTime]

I'm thinking that messing around with city#2 (gifting, etc.) is not a good idea. If it was city #4 that would be different.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here's how I envision the Worker Stealing approach panning out:
- On Turn 35, 2600 BC, we use our Spearman to capture a Worker, whom we've had time to locate and "tail" due to getting the Spearman in the area several turns prior.

- On the same turn, we have an Axeman + Settler on the G For SE + S of the Des H Gold Resource.

- Also on the same turn, we gift City 2 to Asoka and then declare war on him, capturing his Worker and moving Axeman 2 toward City 2, which we recapture on the following turn.

- Gifting a City to Asoka = +4 Fair and Forthright Trading (well, it is for Mehmed II, anyway), so we should still be able to trade techs with Asoka without having to gift him any techs, once the war is over (and once one of us knows Alphabet, of course).

- One downside to this approach is suffering 3 turns of City Unrest when recapturing the City (but at least Trumpster gets the Trade Route from Sugar City during these turns of City Unrest and we save on 2 Gold per Turn in Maintenance Costs). As an alternative option, we can whip a Monument in place of the 2nd Axeman and suffer 0 turns of City Unrest when we capture the City (having 6 Culture and 1 Dutch Byzantine Culture but the Monument will have disappeared), but then we delay Gold City by a few turns since we lack the Axeman to protect our Gold City Settler.

 

[WastinTime]

Have you considered when unit maintenance kicks in? especially after we capture the worker.
Then have you figured in how to get that worker back to a safe place.

When do barbs appear? are we going to have enough military for MP, and protecting workers and spawnbusting?

All just to get a worker a bit sooner...maybe. We know we'll get that worker eventually.

We might have a hard time if Asoka settles to the west. His holy city will not be a good worker steal target.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It is tough to evaluate the value of an early Worker-Stealing operation, but here are some bigger-picture factors:
1. Asoka losing an early Worker will set him back, meaning him building more Workers in place of Military Units, and with us being able to cut off his ability to connect-up a Strategic Resource early on while having the freedom to get Trade Routes with him and Tech from him when we choose... other SGOTM teams who do not capture a City will have an "either or" situation to deal with

2. +4 Fair and Forthright Trading is hard to get from a tech when you know an AI early on in the game, but we'll get it from gifting a City, which will secure our ability to keep trading with Asoka after a war

3. We get our Whipping Unhappiness back, which isn't major, since it's only just under 2 whips' worth, but it is a minor consideration while we are still Happiness-limited in the early game

4. We can send the Stolen Worker to Gold City with the Spearman escorting him, to get that Gold Mine up ASAP. That factor adds a lot of value.

5. Allowing Trumpster to build a Monument in place of an Axeman makes for much more efficient use of our Food in Trumpster, so we pull ahead in Trumpster. For me, this point is a big one, as we're getting Gold City up and running 3 turns sooner by completing Settler 3 three turns sooner.

6. We still have our 2 Forests which could feasibly be Chopped post-Math for a completed Granary (2 * 30 = 60 / 60 Hammers)

7. We'll have more units (1 Spear and 2 Axes total) in the field, getting promotions when the promotions are easier to earn. +1 promotion now may mean the difference between keeping and losing a Military Unit in a fight against Barb units of equal tech level

8. A downside is not being able to use City 2 for 4 turns, but we'll save 3 + 3 * 2 = 9 Gold in Maintenance and will only be missing Trumpster's Trade Route for 1 turn. We'll also miss out on some Food and Hammers. This cost is what we pay for the opportunity to get Trade Routes, Buddhism, and Techs from Asoka in the future without having to build enough of a Military Presence to first capture one of his Cities.

The biggest gains are a crippled Asoka and a faster Gold City.

The Marble being improved or not is not important if we grow on the Corn... just like how we chose to Farm the Corn with an early Granary ahead of Mining the Copper, except that the Marble square is even weaker than the Copper square.



Why West Sugar?
Well, if can find a way to build a Monument in Trumpster, then Trumpster will want to use the Corn resource almost non-stop. Settling on the Sugar and working an FP square is not as good as settling on the Forest and working the Corn, Food-wise, but it's only behind by 1 Food, while Trumpster gains 3 to 4 Food by working the Corn instead of a G For or the Silk/Marble, and that extra Food in Trumpster works well because we have a Granary in Trumpster.

Sure, if we're going to slow-build a Settler in Trumpster, it will be nice to share the Corn with East Lake, so it depends upon what we're going to do in Trumpster as to where we'll settle.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Questions about the East-Lake City 2 plus No-Monument in Trumpster approach
What are you guys' plans for the Unhappiness at Size 4 in City 2 on Turn 33 (is that why we stopped on Turn 32 )? Instead of building a Library ASAP, would we 2-pop-whip an Axeman and overflow into an Archer to have a Military Police unit?

Note that we'd be at 10 Hammers at Size 4, so +1 Chop = a 2-pop-whipped Library... but, I'm not sure how we'd get such a Chop with the Worker having been busy down at the Marble Resource (and with slow-growing the Settler, it really does make sense to improve the Marble Resource).

Besides, an approach of an early 2nd Library would be quite passive (i.e. non-aggressive) in terms of a Military presence.

I'm also unsure how 1 lone Axeman is going to make it safe for our Settler 3 to get all the way to the Gold City location.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

And without knowing where Asoka is going to settle or what tiles the worker will be at make that quite a gamble.

That's why we get the Spearman out so quickly, giving us plenty of time with Asoka's Open Borders to find the perfect place from which to strike.

Maybe a different city can be used for this gift/steal idea.

Gold City doesn't sound like a good candidate, as the City must have grown to Size 2 at one point in order to make it recapturable. If we wait for City 4, we're not really crippling Asoka that much, nor are we stealing a Worker that can help us out in the intervening turns.


Even if we don't choose an aggressive approach (i.e. we choose not to steal a Worker), we really should be building our first Military Unit out of City 2, as Trumpster hugely benefits from its Monument. But, the more Military Units that we build out of City 2, the closer the two approaches get to each other that you almost might as well consider trying to steal the Worker... worst case, we don't steal a Worker and we still have some good units out in the field spawn-busting for us and earning the odd promotion, while making the way between City 2 and Gold City safe and secure.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Another Approach?
It's probably worth trying a hybrid approach, where we build a Monument in Trumpster, build an early Granary in City 2, and build our Military Units out of City 2 after getting the Granary there.

In so doing, we can delay when we'd want to work the Marble, so we could do something like:
Settle at West Sugar -> Mine the Copper -> Road the G Riv For that is on the East Lake location -> Chop the Forest there -> partial Cottage the FP -> Road the Corn -> finish the FP Cottage


There will still be the odd turn where we'll feel that another City could have stolen the Corn Resource, but Trumpster will try to make use of the Corn by growing a lot, while we'll still get 1 Food from setting on one of the Sugars that probably wouldn't have gotten improved for a long period of time.

We're going to have to figure out from where we'll build our 2nd Worker, though.

 

[WastinTime]

I think the fact that we might only get 1 worker a bit sooner is not enough for me to sacrifice all the rest (mainly no granary in city 2 and the 4 turn loss of the city.)

Giving away city #4 will actually save us maintenance.

Setting Asoka back is only going to delay his city 3 and 4 which we want him to get. I think we might be able to gift him WheatSheep (city4) for several turns which will attract at least 2 workers I would think. Those workers will road towards us as we set up a trap. In that case, it's less attractive to have our military come out of the North.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Cool would be for Asoka to spread Buddhism to WheatSheep. My problem with attacking Asoka is that we really want him at Friendly, don't we? I mean, either we go down on his uber-GPFarm capital now and get it over with or we turn him into an uberTradingPartner.

Going halfway doesn't attract me too much in this scenario, at least, not until we meet all the other AIs and know what we're getting ourselves into. For all we know they're all TokuHumbabas.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Fast Monument in Trumpster + Fast Granary in West Sugar City
Other than 2 turns of building the Settler, Trumpster needs its Corn the whole time with the fast-Monument approach, so I settled West Sugar again.

I used the East Lake's Forest to go into West Sugar's Granary, so all that we lost was Worker turns.

Turn 32, 2720 BC Stats
Trumpster (same as my other test run)
Size 5, 18/30 Food
30 + 100 + 6 + 30 = 166 Hammers
30 Hammers in a Monument
108/100 Hammers in a Settler (6 Hammers of which will overflow)
30/35 Hammers in an Axeman

City 2 (West Sugar location)
Size 2, 21//22 Food (I'm not sure if there's a way to do better without settling at East Lake and stealing squares from Trumpster, but feel free to look over the micro to see if we can improve upon the Granary timing at all)
60 + 6 + 8 = 74 Hammers
60 Hammer Granary
6 / 60 Hammers in a Worker that will decay in 4 turns... we will lose 1 Hammer in the Worker if we 2-pop-whip it just as we grow to Size 4 on Turn 36
8 / 35 Hammers in a Spearman

335/568 Flasks in Code of Laws (could be 340 + 2 = 342 if we Open Borders with another AI at the right time)

Other:
+1 Forest (Chopped the East Lake Forest into the Granary)
0/10 turns in making an FP Cottage into a Hamlet (we just completed the Cottage)
Corn is Roaded
1 turn of delay in getting our Great Scientist compared to hiring 2 Scientists right away (9 turns to go as of turn 32)

Micro

Spoiler :

Trumpster:
Emphasize growth:
Pig + Corn + FP + Copper + Silk -> whip at Size 6
-> Pig + Corn + Copper + 1 Sci
-> Pig + Corn + Copper + 2 Sci
-> Pig + Corn + Copper + FP + 2 Sci (Turn 29)

Trumpster builds:
Warrior -> Library (3-pop-whipped) -> Monument -> Settler for 1 turn -> non-Settler and non-Worker to grow starting on Turn 26

Worker:
Mine Copper -> Move to East Lake's G Riv For -> Road it -> Chop it -> partial Cottage on the FP -> Road the Corn -> finish Cottaging the FP

West Sugar:
G Riv Sugar
-> G Riv Sugar + Silk for 3 turns (Worker for 1 of those turns--we could also work the FP instead when building the Worker--it won't matter)
-> G Riv Sugar + FP
-> G Riv Sugar after whipping (Turn 26)
-> G Riv Sugar + Lake for 2 turns (Turn 30)

West Sugar Build:
Granary -> Worker for 1 turn, say, on Turn 23, for example -> Turn 26 1-pop-whip the Granary -> Spearman

Comparison
Overall, the approaches are about the same, except that this one has invested Hammers in a Granary while the other approach invested Hammers in Military Units. By investing in the Granary, we can 2-pop-whip our own Worker... but... and this part is a big but... there is no Military Unit available to escort our Settler to the Gold City location.

So, I still prefer the Worker-Stealing approach.


Getting a Friendly Asoka doesn't seem like the right play to me
I can't say that I'm at all enthusiastic about getting Asoka up to Friendly status. If we really want Buddhism, we should highly prioritize a Road toward Asoka or a City on the sea to the west of us, such as a Rice + Silk City, which sets up the necessary Trade Network to get a Religion (and also opens up Foreign Trade Routes).

I'd much rather take Asoka's lands.

WastinTime's idea about gifting a Sheep City for a while is not a bad idea... we can quickly grow the City to Size 2 using the Wheat that is within our capital's Cultural Borders, so that the City can be recaptured, then we whip and gift the City, leaving it in Asoka's hands for a while. We'd leave the whipped unit (an Axeman) inside of the City to defend the City from Barb units.

Then, when we feel that the time is right, we steal a Worker or two and recapture our City.

The beauty is that Asoka is at +4 Fair and Forthright Trading from us gifting him a City, so he'll still give us Open Borders and be willing to trade techs with us, once someone learns Alphabet.

Asoka (iTechTradeKnownPercent = 20) trades techs too readily for us to bother courting him up to Friendly status. I'd rather court one of the tight-butted AIs, like Bismarck (iTechTradeKnownPercent = 70) or Isabella (iTechTradeKnownPercent = 60) who hardly ever trade, which makes them a great trading partner if you can get them up to Friendly status and no other AI has them up to Friendly status.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I mean, either we go down on his uber-GPFarm capital now and get it over with or we turn him into an uberTradingPartner.

His willingness to trade techs that other AIs believe are Monopoly techs already makes him a great trading partner... all we need is to keep him happy enough to Open Borders with us and trade techs with us, which we can achieve easily enough by temporarily gifting him a City.

Going halfway doesn't attract me too much in this scenario, at least, not until we meet all the other AIs and know what we're getting ourselves into.

My plan is for us to go down on Asoka by weakening him and keeping him focused on REXing... steal his Worker (maybe more later) and force him to build more Workers (good for us) + Archers + Settlers instead of Chariots (Chariots don't stay guarding Cities, so an AI who builds Chariots REXes quite slowly relative to an AI who builds Axemen and Archers).

I want Asoka's capital for The Great Library's location.


A Granary is much like a Barracks
Building Military Units without a Barracks is similar to whipping a few times without a Granary... it takes multiple Military Units and multiple whips to pay off... but, in the short term, it's better to get out a few unpromoted units and in the short term, it's better to skip the Granary.

The fastest way to get Gold City settled is to skip the Granary in City 2 until later.


Yes, it would be AWESOME for us to get Buddhism in a City (which would expand our Cultural Borders for a few turns but the Religion would not disappear post-capturing) and THEN gift it, as then we could recapture the City with no City Unrest and would have a higher chance to keep our Buildings (like a Granary, but not Buildings that are auto-razed like a Barracks or Culture-producing Buildings), but that cannot happen since we have no Trade Network connection to Asoka, so we'll just have to suffer with not owning the City for 4 turns the first time that we employ a City-gifting approach.

For all we know they're all TokuHumbabas.

In that case, then I'd want a Friendly TokuHumbaba and wouldn't feel any sort of a need to bother to get Asoka up to Friendly status.