SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Warrior move before scout move makes sense, as that is only place for warrior to go.
Most hills have forests, so most mining of any type will need BW. Might be an argument for 1E and workboats before worker.
If three seafood (what about four?) east would not make us save it for a GP farm, then maybe the east question is moot? In that case, settle 1E unless there is something NW to temp us. In that case the scout goes NW to see if there is a reason west not to settle 1E.
If the idea is settle 1E unless there is 3 or more seafood there, then scout goes east to look for a reason east not to settle 1E.
It seems to me that we can decide on which question is the key one before we make any moves.
dV
Most hills have forests, so most mining of any type will need BW. Might be an argument for 1E and workboats before worker.
If three seafood (what about four?) east would not make us save it for a GP farm, then maybe the east question is moot? In that case, settle 1E unless there is something NW to temp us. In that case the scout goes NW to see if there is a reason west not to settle 1E.
If the idea is settle 1E unless there is 3 or more seafood there, then scout goes east to look for a reason east not to settle 1E.
It seems to me that we can decide on which question is the key one before we make any moves.
dV
adrianj
Deity
I don't think we need to over think this... though since we have another 4 days until the save is available I suppose we might as well.
A capital with 'too much' food isn't a bad thing at all. Turning a capital into a GPFarm can be annoying, and we probably wouldn't try. In return, we can whip up infrastructure, workers, settlers and military for a very fast start. With Hereditary Rule the capital can quickly grow to work all of its tiles.
So... 1E is looking attractive to me. If scout or archer reveal even more food/seafood, then I wouldn't move AWAY from it, I'd likely move TOWARDS it.
I can't think of any scenario where I'd want to move the settler anywhere but 1E.
(Hill sheep and hill deer aren't all that great. At only 3
(I think?), I don't consider them a particularly desirable food source. I'd even consider mining them rather than pasturing)
A capital with 'too much' food isn't a bad thing at all. Turning a capital into a GPFarm can be annoying, and we probably wouldn't try. In return, we can whip up infrastructure, workers, settlers and military for a very fast start. With Hereditary Rule the capital can quickly grow to work all of its tiles.
So... 1E is looking attractive to me. If scout or archer reveal even more food/seafood, then I wouldn't move AWAY from it, I'd likely move TOWARDS it.
I can't think of any scenario where I'd want to move the settler anywhere but 1E.
(Hill sheep and hill deer aren't all that great. At only 3
(I think?), I don't consider them a particularly desirable food source. I'd even consider mining them rather than pasturing)
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Now we are getting somewhere, I think. If the hill sheep are not enough food for the capital, then 1E is it for sure ... even finding gold or gems W or NW doesn't help if there is not enough food to support it.
If there is more seafood east, would we move even further east to settle to get all of it? That would lose the silver from the capital, so maybe not?
And if not, then we settle 1E regardless of what scouting finds, so now the scouting plan can be viewed more long term, rather than what we need for the settle decision.
Only other idea (if hill sheep food is poor) is that if the archer finds something really nice in the south, would we settle 2 SE for the seafood and the fog booty? Although given this is immortal, maybe not wandering to settle is important.
dV
If there is more seafood east, would we move even further east to settle to get all of it? That would lose the silver from the capital, so maybe not?
And if not, then we settle 1E regardless of what scouting finds, so now the scouting plan can be viewed more long term, rather than what we need for the settle decision.
Only other idea (if hill sheep food is poor) is that if the archer finds something really nice in the south, would we settle 2 SE for the seafood and the fog booty? Although given this is immortal, maybe not wandering to settle is important.
dV
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
Lots of good questions being asked. 
I like the idea of moving the archer 2S and the warrior NW before moving the scout. I had not considered moving the settler SE (or 2S2E, or 2S1E), but those could be strong locations if there are resources in the fog. With the silver needing BW to chop the forest first, leaving it for a second city could work well.
Hill sheep and hill deer are not bad tiles, and I am pretty sure we will want to pasture them rather than mining. But they are not such strong food resources that they would support a capital with decent growth. And since we do not start with AH, I favor leaving them for a second (and possible third) city. If there is other food in the fog in addition to the sheep and deer, we can reconsider.
On the possibility of more seafood to the east in the fog, where would the capital go in that case? 2S2E might work (depending on location of said hypothetical seafood), or we could plant on one of the forested hills. Hate to burn a forest and a hill like that, but for 3+ food sources in the capital it would be worth it.
So overall I would recommend:
1) Move the archer 2S first, and see if anything is revealed that would favor settling SE-ish.
2) Move warrior NW. This reveals one tile (W of silver), which appears to be a hill. Not sure what could appear there that would be more attractive than settling 1E. A pig, maybe? Or another hill sheep/deer?
3) Assuming neither of steps 1 and 2 reveal anything, then scout NE, probably followed by SE to see if there might be additional food further east. I think checking east will be more valuable than going 2N2W, as all those tiles appear to be forested with many hills. Chances seem lower of finding anything that would argue for settling N or NW-ish. And if anything is found NW-ish, it could probably wait and be grabbed by a second city (and after we know AH).
I like the idea of moving the archer 2S and the warrior NW before moving the scout. I had not considered moving the settler SE (or 2S2E, or 2S1E), but those could be strong locations if there are resources in the fog. With the silver needing BW to chop the forest first, leaving it for a second city could work well.
Hill sheep and hill deer are not bad tiles, and I am pretty sure we will want to pasture them rather than mining. But they are not such strong food resources that they would support a capital with decent growth. And since we do not start with AH, I favor leaving them for a second (and possible third) city. If there is other food in the fog in addition to the sheep and deer, we can reconsider.
On the possibility of more seafood to the east in the fog, where would the capital go in that case? 2S2E might work (depending on location of said hypothetical seafood), or we could plant on one of the forested hills. Hate to burn a forest and a hill like that, but for 3+ food sources in the capital it would be worth it.
So overall I would recommend:
1) Move the archer 2S first, and see if anything is revealed that would favor settling SE-ish.
2) Move warrior NW. This reveals one tile (W of silver), which appears to be a hill. Not sure what could appear there that would be more attractive than settling 1E. A pig, maybe? Or another hill sheep/deer?
3) Assuming neither of steps 1 and 2 reveal anything, then scout NE, probably followed by SE to see if there might be additional food further east. I think checking east will be more valuable than going 2N2W, as all those tiles appear to be forested with many hills. Chances seem lower of finding anything that would argue for settling N or NW-ish. And if anything is found NW-ish, it could probably wait and be grabbed by a second city (and after we know AH).
Mmm planned on a bit of time at work to see the starting position. Seems I can't see the screenshots any more at work.. 
.
Still from the quick glance I saw this morning 1E seemes a reasonable start. Best to see what the archer etc show first. Have to wait for this evening to see what the start reveals.
.Still from the quick glance I saw this morning 1E seemes a reasonable start. Best to see what the archer etc show first. Have to wait for this evening to see what the start reveals.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Re-reading the starting material, two things I had missed:
Settled great prophets count as four temples each.
The scout is an "experienced medic" ... so how experienced may mean we are more careful with his scouting, maybe he is not so expendable.
dV
Settled great prophets count as four temples each.
The scout is an "experienced medic" ... so how experienced may mean we are more careful with his scouting, maybe he is not so expendable.
dV
I think the opportunity cost for spawning a Greap Prophet is too high. We are better of whipping those additional temples on the last turn. Sure, we may build the Oracle and get a Prophet at really low odds but I would focus on Scientists (Academy + bulbs), Merchants (upgrades) and Engineers.
Agree that we should perhaps be a bit more conservative with our scout. Having a Medic ready from T0 can really help us if we decide to rush somebody.
Warrior 1NW and Archer 2S sounds reasonable to me as well.
Forested grassland hill deer is not a weak tile! It is the equivalent of a grassland cow tile, which grants an additional 0.5
thanks to the forest. Grassland hill sheep is a little bit on the weaker side and mining it is a very reasonable option depending on the amount of nearby food.
I don't really like coastal capitals that rely on seafood to feed them. Though right now, I can't think of any other spot. I wonder if we can find something better in the fog.
BW is an extremely high priority tech here (to get silver online, chop out settlers/work boats/workers)
Agree that we should perhaps be a bit more conservative with our scout. Having a Medic ready from T0 can really help us if we decide to rush somebody.
Warrior 1NW and Archer 2S sounds reasonable to me as well.
Forested grassland hill deer is not a weak tile! It is the equivalent of a grassland cow tile, which grants an additional 0.5
thanks to the forest. Grassland hill sheep is a little bit on the weaker side and mining it is a very reasonable option depending on the amount of nearby food.I don't really like coastal capitals that rely on seafood to feed them. Though right now, I can't think of any other spot. I wonder if we can find something better in the fog.
BW is an extremely high priority tech here (to get silver online, chop out settlers/work boats/workers)
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
I am curious what it is about a seafood fed capital that you are not fond of. Is it the vulnerability to having the food sea pillaged? Is it the weak other water tiles that one usually has?
In this case 1E would have the two seafood as the only water tiles, so would it be that much different from say two corn or wheat?
dV
adrianj
Deity
Seafood has more expensive set-up costs. Workboats at 30
and are single use, unlike workers. And then later you need a lighthouse before seafood becomes on par with irrigated Wheat/Corn/Rice/Pigs.
The extra little bit of
is nice to have.
@Ororo - I just noticed your Signature: "The Best Wonder in Civ IV: 10x Horse Archer!" Brilliant
and are single use, unlike workers. And then later you need a lighthouse before seafood becomes on par with irrigated Wheat/Corn/Rice/Pigs.The extra little bit of
is nice to have.@Ororo - I just noticed your Signature: "The Best Wonder in Civ IV: 10x Horse Archer!" Brilliant
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I agree with dV -- usually coastal capitals are weaker since you end up with some unimprovable water tiles. But 1E would only have two water tiles, both with resources. And the coastal access will give us some options for early exploration by water that may be helpful in meeting other civs.
The need for work boats and a lighthouse will require hammers, but we can grow while building those unlike building workers. So there is some trade off to partially compensate.
I also like Ororo's signature. It reminds of another I have seen (can't recall who had it), saying the best early wonder is "Stack of Axemen"
Edit: Also, a thought on our starting units. All have a promotion, and are more valuable than normal. The archer and warrior get city garrison, and the scout medic. We should definitely be more careful than usual and try to keep them alive. Fortified CG1 archer in the capital should be able to hold off anything we are likely to see early, although of course there could be special enemies running around near the old imperial capital. And a move-2 medic early can certainly be helpful.
The need for work boats and a lighthouse will require hammers, but we can grow while building those unlike building workers. So there is some trade off to partially compensate.
I also like Ororo's signature.
It reminds of another I have seen (can't recall who had it), saying the best early wonder is "Stack of Axemen" Edit: Also, a thought on our starting units. All have a promotion, and are more valuable than normal. The archer and warrior get city garrison, and the scout medic. We should definitely be more careful than usual and try to keep them alive. Fortified CG1 archer in the capital should be able to hold off anything we are likely to see early, although of course there could be special enemies running around near the old imperial capital. And a move-2 medic early can certainly be helpful.
Ronnie1
Deity
A macro scale question, thoughts on limiting factor? Is this a science race? How deep into the tech tree do we need to plan an economy for? A production play? Can we just steamroll these weak AI. 
A Diplo, Religious or otherwise game? Could we conceivably tech Poly > Mono > 3rd religion to meet the requirement very early?
On settling, what would have us settle away from the seafood?
By the way, to me, it looks like west of the deer is a N/S line of impassable peaks.
A Diplo, Religious or otherwise game? Could we conceivably tech Poly > Mono > 3rd religion to meet the requirement very early? On settling, what would have us settle away from the seafood?
By the way, to me, it looks like west of the deer is a N/S line of impassable peaks.
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
I have been wondering if some (or all) of the religions have already been founded. The backstory implies religious strife in the old empire, and while that may not translate directly into the game it might mean some holy cities already exist.
Once we have the actual save in a few days, we can check the religions screen and see if anything "non-standard" is present.
On limiting factor, I am suspicious that we may need Astro to reach one or more of the holy cities overseas. This is just a hunch, but the emphasis on meeting all the AIs makes me worry. If true then that would require a certain tech push to unlock ocean-going naval units.
There is also a significant hammer requirement for spreading religions, as we are going to need a lot of missionaries to spread religions so we can build enough temples. Unless we end up with a very large number of cities (like 30+) we are going to need to spread a lot of third and fourth religions. And of course we need to build the temples themselves. At least with all these religions plus temples we should have very few problems with happiness. Or culture.
xpost with haphazard
Pretty much this - it is both more expensive and slower to get going. We will need to get that Worker out anyway and having him improve double Corn instead of being forced to produce two very early WBs can be quite beneficial imo. But double Corn is not the kind of luxury we have access to, so the double seafood will have to do instead. That is, unless our Scout discovers something awesome in the NE (Pigs, Corn, Gems etc.)
Seafood has more expensive set-up costs. Workboats at 30
Pretty much this - it is both more expensive and slower to get going. We will need to get that Worker out anyway and having him improve double Corn instead of being forced to produce two very early WBs can be quite beneficial imo. But double Corn is not the kind of luxury we have access to, so the double seafood will have to do instead. That is, unless our Scout discovers something awesome in the NE (Pigs, Corn, Gems etc.)
Well still not much time for civ atm but at least I've had a better look at the starting screen now..
Couple of things I have to agree with Ronnie it looks like peaks in the fog (was going to mention that as well) so might limit us a bit but we'll know soon.
Also would SIP be a bad idea? Especially if there is peaks there limiting settling. 1E might cause problems with settling the sheep sites?
Have to get ready to go out now and know I won't be in a fit state for any input when I get back!!
Couple of things I have to agree with Ronnie it looks like peaks in the fog (was going to mention that as well) so might limit us a bit but we'll know soon.
Also would SIP be a bad idea? Especially if there is peaks there limiting settling. 1E might cause problems with settling the sheep sites?
Have to get ready to go out now and know I won't be in a fit state for any input when I get back!!
haphazard1
Dancing Bear
SIP would mean no coastal access, so no lighthouse and no improved seafood until a second city could be placed.
Mountains to the west...hmmm. There would still be room for a city if we settle 1E but it could be stunted. Maybe this argues for a 2S2E capital? That would allow a second city 1N of the settler's starting spot, grabbing the two sheep plus silver once we have had time to research BW and AH.
Or we could consider settling the capital farther east (as in the additional seafood scenario, even if there isn't any additional seafood). That would also leave room for a city to claim the sheep and silver.
If we do settle 1E (or other position to claim the two seafood), then we won't need a worker for a while since it would have nothing to do but roads. At least until BW is finished which will take a bit of time. We can build the worker later using the improved seafood tiles, so it will not take long.
Double corn can be compared to as a baseline, but we aren't lucky enough to get that. In fact, we don't see any Agri resources at all right now.
Mountains to the west...hmmm. There would still be room for a city if we settle 1E but it could be stunted. Maybe this argues for a 2S2E capital? That would allow a second city 1N of the settler's starting spot, grabbing the two sheep plus silver once we have had time to research BW and AH.
Or we could consider settling the capital farther east (as in the additional seafood scenario, even if there isn't any additional seafood). That would also leave room for a city to claim the sheep and silver.
If we do settle 1E (or other position to claim the two seafood), then we won't need a worker for a while since it would have nothing to do but roads. At least until BW is finished which will take a bit of time. We can build the worker later using the improved seafood tiles, so it will not take long.
Double corn can be compared to as a baseline, but we aren't lucky enough to get that. In fact, we don't see any Agri resources at all right now.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
If we are up against the Western Wall (mountains), then there are only two spots to settle one further east: SE-SE or E-E (on the forest hill) that save the use of the seafood. Settling 3 east makes no sense, of course unless something miraculous is found there).
For a second city west, if there are mountains (which seems likely), 1N of settler or SW of settler (if the deer beats the sheep) might both be possibilities.
In fact, I we have to squeeze two cities in between wall and water, would we want to put capital N or SW (if we don't like the seafood capital)? Ororo says the forest grassland hill deer is strong, and we could camp it just with a hunting research, so is there any reason to consider SW capital? It does put 3 useless mountains in the BFC so maybe not.
dV
For a second city west, if there are mountains (which seems likely), 1N of settler or SW of settler (if the deer beats the sheep) might both be possibilities.
In fact, I we have to squeeze two cities in between wall and water, would we want to put capital N or SW (if we don't like the seafood capital)? Ororo says the forest grassland hill deer is strong, and we could camp it just with a hunting research, so is there any reason to consider SW capital? It does put 3 useless mountains in the BFC so maybe not.
dV
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Map thought: see the attached topographic map.
The map is a modified pangea, as I recall. Could we be in Bulgaria, north of Istanbul, with mountains to the west, and the Black Sea to the East? Has a roughly accurate map of Turkey been generated for this game?
Just a thought.
dV
The map is a modified pangea, as I recall. Could we be in Bulgaria, north of Istanbul, with mountains to the west, and the Black Sea to the East? Has a roughly accurate map of Turkey been generated for this game?
Just a thought.
dV
