SGOTM 21 - Jag älskar er

[ecawilson]

To know if it is an island: From the fish, we need to know 3N1E, and 4N1E. To find that out, we need to stand on 5N1W. That is minimum 4 moves for warrior2 (NE, N, NE, SE), maybe more depending on mountains or coast we uncover. NE, N could certainly be on the way for a counterclockwise explore, NE again 'might' be, but SE most certainly wouldn't. That said, maybe we should be willing to map a little more of the coast for city sites anyway, since part of our strategy included the great lighthouse.

So, how far out of the way is that?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Maybe too far. It really depends on what our priorities are for scouting. How soon will we have sailing? I expect the border pops from City 2 will help reveal the territory in time?

 

[ecawilson]

#1 concerns me. Any team that is behind us in culture, for example, would have to have had anarchy already. Can't imagine anyone would go for religion, knowing Spain was out there, so it had to be Bronze Working, and they got it sooner. Higher score might mean better micro, but might also mean that they have worked on more workers or settlers and subsequently have less population. Can't figure out a downside to highest power, but give me a day or two, and I am sure I can figure out something.

 

[ecawilson]

And cool: I had no idea such a table was being compiled. I love it. I have no idea how it can actually help me play better, but it might give me an idea at the end of this game if I am actually valuable or not.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Oh, I wouldn't take anything from it. We're tied for #1 in culture with half the teams. And the graphs are unreliable since they are point to point between saves, thus the lines aren't "real" and it really should be a dot graph.

The down side to highest power is "we built another warrior and they didn't need to do so."

 

[elitetroops]

Chris, what is the plan in your save? Chop and whip settler on t37?

Did you try whipping the worker? Attaching a t39 save of what that would look like.

Basically whip worker t30, work deer, crab, mine. t31 work deer, crab, farm for 1 turn workboat and regrowth to pop 4, then build settler. Once city 2 reaches pop 2 I give the wheat back to cap. City 2 will grow in time for 2nd gems mine anyway and they don't have any other good tiles to work so earlier growth is not that valuable.

Whipping worker and building settler at pop 4 would cost a few beakers, compared to building at pop 5, but instead we have the workboat ready in time to improve crab t39. I used it to circle the island east of cap before heading for crab. We'd also get rid of whip anger while building the settler.

In city 2 I built two warriors. Getting the first one out from the chop hammers on t31 is nice.

Not really sure what to do with the 2nd worker. You sent him to chop the hill, so I put him there also. This means building a mine while there. He could also chop 1N2W of cap, then move 2N1E to chop hill for city 2. That way we would get the exploring workboat out on t39, but waste a forest. Or he could chop whatever, then prechop something else. Not much good he can do until 2nd city gets border pop.

And I don't know what to build after settler in cap.

 

[elitetroops]

This being my first SGOTM, I am curious if this team is more or less verbose than most.

Spoiler :

I played the last 2 games for PR and their style is very different. It's more of a team game where the active player says what time he will be playing and as many as possible are at the computers at that time. Then every move is being discussed within the team in real time. Unfortunately for me most of the playing took place between midnight and 6am my time, so I was sleeping and every morning I would wake up to 100+ new posts (this was SGOTM 19). After that 12k post game, they invented this new system with everybody editing their most recent post with new thoughts to keep the post count down. Unfortunately, for me this meant waking up to the same amount of text, but it wasn't chronological so it was only a lot harder to follow... If you read the thread for SGOTM 20, you will find a lot of posts that are replying to something said on the next page. They're probably using that same system again, which explains their seemingly low post/turn.

But yeah, they are a very strong team with several very good players. I expect to see them grab a laurel. The other two obvious candidates for laurels are PD and TSR. Now let's prove everyone wrong by demoting one of those three teams down to 4th place!

 

[BSPollux]

Some teams have all players online when playing turns occasionally and use the thread like a chat. They sometimes generate 50 posts on one day that way. It also seems that one big problem creates less posts than several small ones. Possibly because people who *think* everyone else was a better player stop answering once the others deal with a specific problem.

When I was playing I was writing all the time. Either I made suggestions (when I felt smart) or I commented on other peoples suggestions (when I thought they were smart) or I asked questions (to become smart) or I just spammed to keep the thread active

 

[kcd_swede]

This being my first SGOTM, I am curious if this team is more or less verbose than most. Also curious about our playing speed compared to other teams. I know I can look at past games, but that is different. Would it be wholly inappropriate to get a post/turn count for the other teams, or does knowing what turn they are on go against the spirit of the competition?

Posts per turn is shown on the SGOTM Progress page. There is only 1 team played fewer turns than us. But we're about average.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php?game=50021&displayteams=displayteams&all_0=&include%5B%5D=Fifth+Element&include%5B%5D=Jag+%C3%A4lskar+er&include%5B%5D=Misfit+Gypsy+Nuts&include%5B%5D=Phoenix+Rising&include%5B%5D=Plastic+Ducks&include%5B%5D=The+Shawshank+Redemption&include%5B%5D=Xteam&format=post_list&startdate=-4000&enddate=-1840&submit=Refresh#format

How many turns is your PPP covering, Chris?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I'm testing the whip worker plan that elitetroops proposed.

I don't see how my plan can be any more than the 8 turns [edit - 9 turns with revolution] to get animal husbandry. Either we have horses, and we have to plan for how to get them online, or we don't have horses, and we have to make decisions about how fast to get archers. Either way, it will require discussion. I'm OK with playing two mini turnsets instead of one big one.

 

[kcd_swede]

mini turnsets is the best way to go in the early game. You have 20 turns, but the options change so quikly here, that pausing at sgnificant points, like discoveries, resoure-revealing techs, and build options is certainly the way to go. So you are green to animal husbandry from me.

Suggestions for city names:

Hjärtet
Sötnos

 

[ChrisShaffer]

OK, a new PPP using elitetroops suggestion of whipping the worker instead of the settler. Notable features of this PPP:

• Aggressive scouting. Send warrior 2 off to the NE. Send warrior 3 to scout cows/gems and then fogbust Sötnos. Rely on warrior 4 for protection of Hjärtet. Workboat circles deer island then to crabs for city 3. Having the three units out of our borders does not incur a unit maintenance cost, which is nice.
• Kärlekshamn two pop whips the worker, overflow into 1 turn workboat, settler finished turn 38. Next build has a chop into it on turn 38.
• Hjärtet builds warrior 3 and warrior 4, is ready for a new build the turn animal husbandry is researched. Next build has a chop into it on turn 38.
• Settler complete turn 38, Sötnos founded 1E of cows turn 40.
• Workboat nets crabs on turn 40, the same turn Sötnos is founded.
• Worker 1 chops/mines gems for Hjärtet. The second gem chop is available on turn 38, so it can go into whatever we decide to build after warrior 4.
• Worker 2 chops two forests in Kärlekshamn, one going into settler for Sötnos, the second into whatever we produce next (settler for city 4?). Worker 2 is ready to pasture cows on turn 41, one turn after Sötnos is settled. It has 1/2 turn available to put a partial farm somewhere along the way. I think this is better than leaving the forest pre-chopped. Hammers now are important, and Sötnos will have crabs to work the turn it is founded.

I will use kcd_swede's suggestions as names for city 2 (Hjärtet) and city 3 (Sötnos). That way for shorthand we have K (capital), H (city 2), and S (city 3).

I work best with a spreadsheet, so I created one. Anyone with the link can edit it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uJrkl6wXQ-vkdG06K5CpValTtr9369uG28xwD-MjW9E/edit?usp=sharing

Here's a screenshot of the spreadsheet in case you need it:

Spoiler :

And the map on turn 37 - animal husbandry discovered, both workers finish chops next turn, NE warrior randomly exploring since we don't know what he will find, Hjärtet just finished building warrior 4 and has workboat as placeholder, etc.

Spoiler :

And here's the test save on turn 37 if you'd like to look at it:
http://gesserit.net/SGOTM21/SGOTM%2021%20TEST%20GAME%20BC-2520.CivBeyondSwordSave

Diplo: No heads on poles.
Espionage: All on Willem.
Slider: 100% research.

Stop/Pause: If any of the following occur, I stop to report and consult with team: religion spreads to us, wonder is built, we meet someone new, Willem or Shaka make a demand, barbarian troubles, any unusual map features and/or occurrences observed, animal husbandry research completed.

Additional tasks: Verify that autosave is set to 1 turn. Verify that BUFFY logging is turned on. At start of turn, make manual save, demo, and victory screenshots. Save the CivFanatics upload page log. Post BUFFY and CivFanatics logs in turn report.

 

[elitetroops]

Looks good! Yes, of course settle 1E of cow instead of 2E like I had. Don't know what I was thinking...

One little thing in tile micro, on t30 it should be deer crab mine in K after the whip. One more overflow hammer from the worker.

Your research says 100% all the time, but we can't keep that. I don't remember exactly, but I think I used:
t30: 0%
t31-t34: 100%
t35: 0%
t36-: 100%

Might also work with t30-t31 0%, then 100%.

In any case we should be using binary, it adds on average one beaker/turn at this stage, which is >5% increase in research. This little increase should give archery on t40, if we go that route.

Depending on the lands in the north, we might be better off with warrior 4 fogbusting outside our borders instead of having him in the city. We won't be needing any unit there for happiness reasons in a long time.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

d'oh. I didn't even notice that it automatically put us at 80%. Will definitely change it to binary research. Good catch.

Marked the K micro to check on that mine. Might want to work it both turns. Will test.

Agree about warrior 4.

Off to a retro video gaming exposition. Will make those adjustments and test this evening. In the meantime, additional comments or green lights would be appreciated!

 

[elitetroops]

On t31 I think you need farm or at least fur for growth to pop 4, but you'll notice that when testing.

Otherwise green from me.

 

[kcd_swede]

Looks good.. still green here. Thanks ecawilson for direcing more attention to the competiti9n, since that's what its all about... the AI have no chance, but the smaret folks on other teams is who we aim to eat I mean beat

Get off my lap you stupid cat, I am psting important stuff

 

[ecawilson]

Not following who is building the workboat, and when. Agree that having crabs online when 3rd city is settled is very important, but I wonder if scouting plainshill island would be more useful than scouting fur island. I do want to know if we have shipping lanes and an archipelago to our east, but I can't imagine following such a trail before our 5th city.

I wrote the top half of this post 12 hours ago, and didn't finish the last half or send it.

By my math, it would take 6 turns (it's late, a WB moves 1/turn, right?) to be sure, and then would have to come back the same way to get back around to the crab. Maybe that isn't worth it.

 

[ecawilson]

Yeah, after reading the posts I missed, definitely not worth using the boat to scout NE first.

I realize that I am old fashioned, but some of those city names make me uncomfortable. Thank you Chris, for picking the appropriate ones.

I love spreadsheets. I removed about 30,000 of the blank cells, as google sheets will load better on some devices without all the extra space, and, while high, there is a quota on cells you can have in your drive. And I am a bit anal retentive.

Can we get EP points totals for all three known relationships, top 5 cities, and religion screen, please?

I still don't understand *why* 100% and 0% create extra commerce, so I don't often do binary economy. Is there an explanation anywhere as to why that happens? Or is it simple rounding?

In general, I prefer fog busting to city fortify, unless we are worried about the unit being destroyed by animals?

 

[kcd_swede]

Not following who is building the workboat, and when. Agree that having crabs online when 3rd city is settled is very important, but I wonder if scouting plainshill island would be more useful than scouting fur island. I do want to know if we have shipping lanes and an archipelago to our east, but I can't imagine following such a trail before our 5th city.

I wrote the top half of this post 12 hours ago, and didn't finish the last half or send it.

By my math, it would take 6 turns (it's late, a WB moves 1/turn, right?) to be sure, and then would have to come back the same way to get back around to the crab. Maybe that isn't worth it.

wb moves 2 tiles per turn. if we don't get it out scouting right away, it will be too late because of barb galleys will arrive. After 3rd city is established, we really need to scout.

Yeah, after reading the posts I missed, definitely not worth using the boat to scout NE first.

I realize that I am old fashioned, but some of those city names make me uncomfortable. Thank you Chris, for picking the appropriate ones.

I love spreadsheets. I removed about 30,000 of the blank cells, as google sheets will load better on some devices without all the extra space, and, while high, there is a quota on cells you can have in your drive. And I am a bit anal retentive.

Can we get EP points totals for all three known relationships, top 5 cities, and religion screen, please?

I still don't understand *why* 100% and 0% create extra commerce, so I don't often do binary economy. Is there an explanation anywhere as to why that happens? Or is it simple rounding?

In general, I prefer fog busting to city fortify, unless we are worried about the unit being destroyed by animals?

Binary research has two advantages: 1) rounding is always done downward to the nearest integer. At 100% and 0% there is no rounding. 2) As other civs learn techs, they get cheaper for you, and maybe you build a library, etc -- so doing the whole technology research later --say 2t at 0% followed by 8t at 100% instead of 10t at 80% will often save you a few beakers. 3) sometimes emergencies arrive and its better to have the cash than 2t into a tech.

Sorry about some city names... I've edited to keep it a family-friendly thread.

I agree about EP, we should get demographics on the civs we meet. Then enough on willem to see what he is researching. We might need EP to get willem in the civics or faith we need, eventually.

Another comment on scouting...Until we localize willem, it is impossible to gift a worker.

 

[elitetroops]

Not following who is building the workboat, and when. Agree that having crabs online when 3rd city is settled is very important, but I wonder if scouting plainshill island would be more useful than scouting fur island. I do want to know if we have shipping lanes and an archipelago to our east, but I can't imagine following such a trail before our 5th city.

Workboat comes from Capital t32. In my test I scouted fur because that was the only option when settling t39. Now we settle t40, so there is one more turn and we have more options. It could go to 1N of fish, then head back. Or it could head west from our new city location to check the shore.

I think we should consider getting a workboat from city 2 quite soon, that would scout the plainshill island. So maybe go west from new city site? I don't have the real game open and don't remember exactly what the shoreline there looked like.

Can we get EP points totals for all three known relationships, top 5 cities, and religion screen, please?

You can download the save and look at those screens yourself also. Just don't unpause the game and don't save. Open-look-close.

I still don't understand *why* 100% and 0% create extra commerce, so I don't often do binary economy. Is there an explanation anywhere as to why that happens? Or is it simple rounding?

Like KCD said, it's rounding. When we settle on t30 and whip cap, the game would automatically put us at 80% for 12, 0. With slider at 0% we get 13 and with slider at 100% we get 16 -3, which also is a net of 13 commerce. The increase is almost 10%!

If you do the math, you can see that with 5 turns of slider on 80% we get 60. 1 turn at 0% + 4 turns at 100% gives 641.