SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 21 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first posts of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, they will be posted in that thread.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck with the game, and - Have Fun! :)
 
Welcome, Misfit Gypsy Nuts!

General team organizational stuff, shamelessly stolen from adrianj (who is not with us this time around due to impending (or maybe now actual, as the due date was earlier this week) fatherhood, congrats adrianj! :woohoo:):

We are happy to have a new member: namliaM. The rest of the crew are returning members from the SGOTM20 version of Misfit Gypsy Nuts, where we placed fourth.

I believe that namliaM has played SGOTM before (although quite some time ago), so I'll skip the formalities about the rules. Please check the Maintenance Thread for full details if you need a refresher.

To repeat what adrianj said last time:
  • have fun,
  • let your ideas be heard,
  • don't take things too seriously.
Respect SGOTM rules:
  • no looking at other teams' threads,
  • no replaying the save.
Doing so could cause us to be disqualified, which would make me sad.

The Pre Play Plan

I'd like us to keep the tradition of the PPP going. A brief read through our SGOTM20 thread should show/remind you of what is in one. If it is your turn to play, please post a PPP as soon as possible. It may not be the final draft, but it makes for a good starting point to begin/continue the discussion.

Game Logs

As team captain, I found the BUFFY Autolog to be immensely helpful for reviewing the game and analysing what happened.

I would like all turnset playing team members to familiarise themselves with this feature of BUFFY. Know how to a) enable it/start logging, b) where the log file is located on your machine, c) how to insert a user message into the log while playing, and d) configure BUFFY to colour code things with forum tags.

The Turnset log you receive upon submitting the save to the server should also be posted - though it is harder to read.

Pacing

We have a firm time limit for the game, so we don't want to let the pace drag too much. But at the same time we do not want to rush decisions, especially important ones. It is worth the time to discuss things thoroughly, especially when there is disagreement among team members. But let's try to avoid long delays in starting discussions, especially in posting the initial draft PPP. It does not need to be a perfect work of art, just get an initial set of points together to start discussion. We will refine as necessary through discussion and with input from the team.

Essentially, let's try to avoid long periods of "dead thread" where no discussion or play is happening. But we should not need to rush actual play as long as we keep the game moving steadily, even if slowly.
 
Information purchased (as of Turn 46, 2160 BC):

1) General directions to find the three queens -- Not Yet Purchased
2) First secret to win Elizbeth's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
3) Second secret to win Elizabeth's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
4) Third secret to win Elizabeth's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
5) First secret to win Isabella's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
6) Second secret to win Isabella's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
7) Third secret to win Isabella's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
8) First secret to win Catherine's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
9) Second secret to win Catherine's heart -- Not Yet Purchased
10) Third secret to win Catherine's heart -- Not Yet Purchased

Cost of Next Purchase

From the maintenance thread:

As your training sessions get increasingly advanced, the bills will start to climb as well. So each time you buy information, you have to scratch one payment option from this list of 20.
JxSkJcj.jpg

Example: If you purchased the first two pieces of information with gold (50 and 75), you will have the choice to pay with either 1 worker or 100 gold for the third purchase. If you chose the 1 worker option, the next choice will be between 2 workers or 100 gold and so on.

We have made zero purchases so far, so the cost of the next purchase is:

1 worker
or
50 gold

---------------
Begging tracking -- as of Turn 46, 2160 BC

Willem -- By rule, can not beg!
Elizabeth -- Met on T37; no begging yet; so 9 turns
Isabella -- Not yet met
Catherine -- Not yet met
Shaka -- Met after end of T21; no begging yet; so 25 turns
Unknown AI #2 -- Not yet met
Unknown AI #3 -- Not yet met
Unknown AI #4 -- Not yet met
Unknown AI #5 -- Not yet met

----------------

I will also try to keep the latest Play Order up to date in this post for easy reference.

As of Turn 46 (2160 BC):

???
???
???
Ronnie1
namliaM
nocho -- just played


(Order not yet fully decided, volunteers to play next welcome!)
 
OK, I think we are in business! :)

Welcome, all, to our team thread for SGOTM21. I will update the organizational post as soon as I can steal come up with something appropriate.

All team members please post here to indicate you are active. Feel free to start discussion of strategy, things you would like to see the team do, things you would like to see the team NOT do, and anything else that seems even vaguely appropriate. :lol: We want to play well and contend for a laurel, but we also want to have fun doing so.
 
Good luck everyone! I hope you will enjoy the game. I know I will enjoy watching you :)

Edit:


Ladys and tasks

Elizabeth ("Elizabeth wants to be treated like the queen she is. You need to impress her with unique status symbols, like...")
a) Rename the proudest ship ever to sail the oceans after her and gift it to her (needs at least 50xp to be worthy) done here
b) Build a huge statue of her and celebrate it with the biggest party of all time (construct The Colossus, Christo Redentor or The Statue of Liberty during a Golden Age that has at least 11 turns left at time of completion)(not the whole construction needs to happen during the GA, just the completion)
c) Bring her all the luxuries of the world (gift her at the same time: Gold, silver, gems, ivory, fur, pearls(clam), wine and silk. If she already has some, ignore these.)

Isabella ("Isabella is all into romantic gestures. My first suggestion to win her heart would be...")
a) Have the most brilliant minds of your time explain to her that your love is pure, true and eternal (bring one artist, scientist and prophet to her capital and gift them to her)
b) Build her a luxurious summer residence (Gift her a city built on desert and next to the coast or an oasis that has an Odeon, a Grocer and a Castle), you must be at +3 relations with her when you gift this city. done here
c) Invent a whole new style of music to express your love and let the whole world hear it (Construct Rock N Roll and gift all Singles away for free, or gift Singles to all players alive)

Catherine ("Catherine's heart has to be conquered. You will have to prove your might to her by...")
a) Take control of the worlds most important resources: Control 4 aluminum, 6 uranium and 10 oil resources (control = have inside your borders and connected to your trade network).
b) Prove your might with a military parade in her honor (have the following units in her capital at the same time: 12 armored units, 4 air units and 12 gunpowder units, commanded by a general (unconnected))
c) Be the first to get a serious Space Program running (be the first to complete Apollo Program and build three parts of the spaceship, your choice)

Payment options used:
50 gold
75 gold
100 gold
133 gold
166 gold
200 gold
1 worker
2 workers
2 workers
 
Thanks, BSPollux! It looks like an entertaining scenario you and Deckhand have prepared for us. :) Thanks to both of you for the hard work you have put in, and to all the admin staff helping to keep things running smoothly.

Due to the slight delay in getting the team threads open, we are scheduled to get the starting saves tomorrow! :eek: So I am going to go ahead the throw a few initial thoughts and ideas out for discussion, rather than waiting. Not that we need to start playing immediately of course -- lots to discuss first! :lol:

Obtaining information on how to woo the three queens will obviously be crucial, since we can not "luck into" fulfilling a requirement. We must have purchased a secret before fulfilling it for that action to count. So we will need to make an early push to obtain the various secrets. But first we must decide which ones, and how many, to purchase.

Technically we only need three secrets -- one for each queen. But some of the secrets may be difficult/costly/time inefficient to complete, and worse they can become obsolete/no longer possible. Only one secret per queen is guaranteed to be impossible to become blocked, and we do not know in advance which ones that might be for each queen. So we will need to purchase at least one secret for each queen, and then decide if we think that goal is the one to go for or if we need to purchase more secrets for that queen. We may want to purchase all the secrets just to give us more options, but the escalating costs may make this very expensive.

Finally there is the other secret, for the general directions to each queen. Do we want to purchase that one at all? I guess that will depend on who we meet when, and how much exploration we manage to do.

I am guessing we will end up purchasing 6-8 secrets total, but that is only a gut feeling. We may end up wanting/needing all of them. In any case, we are going to need plenty of cash to bribe Willem, or a bunch of surplus workers, or both. Of course, we can't even begin making purchases until we find Willem's capital (to send workers) or reach Currency tech (for cash buys) or Willem reaches Currency tech (probably don't want to wait that long).

On the start itself, we have some interesting choices of food sources. I need to look up Pericles' info -- we have a scout, do we start with Hunting or has the start been modified? If we have Hunting then the deer tile is quite attractive. Plenty of seafood, including on what appears to be an island to the east -- a city there for off-shore trade routes could pay dividends. And of course those gems to the north are high-priority targets to help generate funds to buy secrets.

We do have a worker added to our start, so we should be able to get off to a much quicker start than normal for Immortal difficulty. Opportunities for worker stealing to get more, for our own use and for payments to Willem, would of course be highly valuable. This is something we have not done well in previous SGOTM compared to most of the top teams.

Note that there are 9 opponents on a standard size map. Unless a lot of land has been added, things are going to be significantly more cramped than usual (6 opponents is normal for a standard map). We have been told that Willem is on our continent, and we start with contact with him. We need to maintain at least neutral relations (+1) to be able to purchase secrets, so we will need to be careful to avoid giving offense.

Anyway, those are my initial thoughts until we can actually examine the save.
 
Here is a roster order we can work with for a while.

Ronnie1 - waiting
namliaM - waiting
nocho - just played
sleepless - UP NOW
McArine - on deck


Checking in! Greetings and Happy New Year to everyone!

Special hello to namliaM, welcome aboard!

Pericles is Creative and Philosophical
Greece starts with Fishing and Hunting
Our UU is the Phalanx, replacing the Spearman and our Odeon replaces the Colosseum.

Hunting provides the scout and the ability to improve the deer immediately.

Without the worker I would surely settle 3N and get the Wheat/Crab/Gems in the bfc. But that leaves nothing for the worker to do.:thumbsdown:

The ONLY tile the worker can do anything with in the short run is the Deer!
 
Note all those gems are forested so we'd need BW to improve them.

2E looks like an option. It'll have deer, wheat, crab and 4 cottageable riverside tiles. Fur too later. Only 2 hills though. However, early to middle game looks quite strong. Might start with agri and pottery in that case, keeps worker busy and fast granary and cottages look good here to me.

From what we see, in that case a second city 3N1W with fresh water, cow, crab, gems and some hills looks attractive enough. Good to be creative to get those resources online sooner.

Thinking we might want an early GM to buy quite some info. We're philosophical after all. GLH might be a strong option for the GM points and obviously since we see coasts and even likely 2 islands.
 
Checking in, looking forward to another SGOTM :-)

Welcome namliaM.

What I would like to see this time around, is us trying to get better at getting fail money, and as haphazard1 mentions, worker stealing.
As haphazard1 also mentions, overseas trade routes with the island should be a must, and with that, Temple of Artemis, and The Great Lighthouse. We haven't been that good at planning our wonders before, would be great if we could improve that too.
Getting the overseas trade route mean that sailing should be a high priority tech for us.

Settling, I'm divided between 3N and close to the deer for early use of the worker. Could of course also use the worker for some initial scouting.

We should also consider using our early UU for an early rush, to get the most out of it.

Being philosophical, we should really look for one or two solid GP city sites. And make the best possible use of those GP.
 
OK, 4 out of 6 have shown up. Now we need Sleepless and our new team member namliaM to join in the fun. :)

I like the idea of 3N or 3N1W (or maybe even 3N2W once we do some scouting?) as a future city site. Or possibly even as the capital -- it would nicely block off the peninsula to be settled a bit later. (I am probably being paranoid about the 9 AIs on a standard map thing. :lol:) But 2E is also quite interesting and would start faster with the deer able to be improved immediately. And since the 3-tile island is an island, we could still plant a city wherever we wanted on it to use the other (southern) crab tile. With the deer and northern crab tile the capital would have enough food to share the wheat with a later city to claim the two more eastern gems, if there is not more food somewhere to the north.

I also like the idea of the Great Lighthouse as a target. With a couple island cities plus hopefully some foreign trade, we could get excellent commerce out of the bonus trade routes. And from what we can see plus knowing this is a custom continents map, we should have many coastal cities to benefit. Where exactly to build it could be an issue. But the 3N1W spot would have 4 hills (one with gems) plus grassland cows for good early hammers. If we got a city there early enough to grow to the happy cap, it could do a respectable job cranking it out.

McArine makes good points about fail gold and worker stealing. The top teams in the last couple SGOTMs have made strong use of both tactics, and we should learn from that. Of course we need some kind of doubler resource to really make use of fail gold, but hopefully stone or marble will be available somewhere.

I would add that we need to put solid effort into early exploration. Finding our neighbors, learning the land (and any surprises the map makers have prepared for us), and finding the queens will be critical to making intelligent decisions. Also, with more AIs than usual for the map size we want to meet as many as possible for purposes of tech trading, foreign trade routes, known tech bonus, etc. What are people thinking as far as the need for Astronomy? Custom continents (but modified) map seems likely we will need it to find everyone, especially with Deckhand hinting that we will need to tech further than last game.

Do we have any interest in an early religion? We are not really set up for it, but it is something to consider even if we choose not to go that direction.

Good points also on making use of our Philosophical trait for early great people. We have not planned these as carefully as we might have in the last couple SGOTM, so this is another area we can focus on improvement. And with Philosophical we can certainly get some good results.
 
Some teams are speculating about the map type. I now realized that my description of a custom-made continents map turned into "custom continents" during the process of preparing the announcement thread. So to make it clear: I always design the maps from scratch and just afterwards I give a suggestion what it might be similar to. And I said "treat it like a continents map". This became "custom continents" somehow without me noticing this detail. Not sure if/how this will effect your plans, but I wanted to make sure you don't work with a false premise. I will post this in each team thread.
 
Imo nothing can really beat 2 6-yield tiles, being deer and wheat. Especially if we can improve them nearly immediately and have hardly any worker down-time if we go agri first. Compare that to a start with cow where the worker can't do a thing until after 12 odd turns we'd finally have AH. Then all the way mining+BW for the gems and then we'd still only have 2 improved tiles with lower yield. Way too slow. Don't think something with workboats can really change that.

I'd approach the early game as a REX, with the objective of the GLH tossed in.

Might want to contemplate Oracling currency. ToA I've never built it on higher levels TBH and certainly not without marble, I don't think it's really cost effective, but we'll see.

Worker stealing should certainly be looked at, but since we don't have a starting warrior I suspect we may have to wait for chariots or something.

Failgold, depends on multipliers available but sure, especially given the gold needs.
 
Thanks for clarifying, Pollux. These kinds of little confusions creep in, just no way to stop them. :lol:

nocho, I think you are correct. But I do think we will want that 3N(0-2)W site pretty quickly for a second (or possibly third, depending) city.

I agree that ToA is rather underwhelming, especially without marble. If it boosted the trade routes of more than one city it would be different. But as is, it is mostly only useful if you want the free priest to generate more prophet GPP. It is a lot of hammers early for too little return.
 
OK, the starting save is now available! :) Let the fun (and discussion) begin.

I took a brief look around, just to see if I spotted anything unusual. We do have a +3 diplo bonus with Willem for "past events" which gives us a little cushion for keeping him at +1 or better. Other than that, I did not see anything exceptional. Unlike certain past games, where religions were already founded or corporate HQs existed, etc. :lol: But please everyone feel free to take a look around and see if you spot anything unexpected.

Where do we want to send the scout? North along the eastern coast or west along the southern coast seem the two main options. I would like to know if there is anything interesting around the gems, since those seem like our first settling targets.
 
Hi all, the week from hell has had me distracted from checking in.
On top of which my daughter caught sick with the flew to cap it all off, finaly time to be here for a bit :)

I had a look at the map, I think the black and red cities are set in stone.
The city at the deer, for me, just isnt strong enough for a capital which would make the yellow the capital
Plan A
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An alternative might be to use this
Plan B
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Advantage of this capitol is it probably starts up a bit faster due to the deer/wheat combo and also can work the rather powerfull beaver if improved early enough (needs sailing fast, which is also required for the red city). Also the use of the additional crab for even more food if we need it, though longer term that probably should go to the red city.
Longer term I feel this capitol will cost us a bit more vs a more northly cituated capitol due to the added maintenance costs of further away cities.

It should take 4 turns for the borders to pop, which doesnt leave any time to go exploring with the worker....
Assuming we work a 1 commerce tile perhaps a 2 commerce tile for a turn or two we can work the deer at turn 8 and turn 9 discover Agriculture, though we dont really need it untill turn 10 when the worker arrives there
 

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namliaM, did you know there is a dot-map functionality built into the buffy mod? I see you edited the images and just thought I'd mention it, in case you didn't know.
 
I know pollox, not too good at drawing straight lines in free hand, plus as far as I know buffy only has one colour of lines

not sure if this will help or not, I tried making a mockup map for us

edit:
Fixed the missing gems on the mockup map and played 45 turns on each scenario
Plan A
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Plan B
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Notice the extra settler a few warriors and a (hidden) worker in Sparta which was its first build
 

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Thanks for the test game namliaM! :goodjob:

As I said before, without the worker I would surely go north! Getting a jump with the deer is way to good to pass on no matter what the southern city eventually becomes.

My biggest question is 1st build!
 
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