SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Sleepless]

Must admit I don't really look at the graphs to much.. Always interesting just to compare the big spikes in military for me.. Oh and the big lows when they lose alot of units..

As to the game itself I haven't had much time for civ recently (i.e haven't played a GOTM for quite a while) and must admit most of my tests haven't been up to my high standards.. so haven't uploaded them.. So keen to look at others attempts though as mentioned the detail can go over your head a bit at times..

 

[Sleepless]

I agree that we need to keep our eyes on the bigger picture. Micro is good, and at this early stage the details matter and testing is good. But as the game progresses it will be more and more about getting the big things correct. Agree

As I see things at the moment, we are aiming for:

- Fast initial REX for the first couple cities Yep
- High early commerce from special tiles (gems x3, furs) yep
- The Great Lighthouse to provide more commerce and support future REX, plus some Merchant GPP for a possible trade mission for gold to buy many secretsNot sure on the merchant atm. Though one wouldn't hurt.

A bit longer term we want:

- Continued REX, focusing on coastal and island cities to maximize value of the Great Lighthouse Yep
- Currency to allow cash purchases of secrets Yep
- Exploration to find more AIs for tech trading, possible foreign trade routes, and secrets buyingEarlier the better for me on this one. namliaM mentioned exporing wbs which would be my idea as well.

Am I missing anything, or incorrect with these broad goals? I have not really thought long term yet, since it is still very early and we do not know enough yet about what the secrets are and what we will have to do to win the queens' hearts. The secrets could be military, they could be wonders, they could be diplomatic, they could be technology...just no way to know yet. So remaining flexible seems like the way to go, at least until we know more.

Always best to be flexible...

 

[haphazard1]

About exploring with work boats -- does anyone know when barbarian galleys might start appearing?

I know I am being paranoid, as a result of the previous SGOTM and those nasty pre-placed barb triremes. In most games an exploring wb can last for quite a long time.

 

[namliaM]

Ok, more casual, less numbers etc...

Assuming the test game is same to the real game,
Pressing enter from the previous save would put us at 77/80.
Which means we have 7 overflow beakers, we should do next turn at 80% so we get exactly 8 beakers (from our 10 commerce) for a total of 15 and a nice 20% bonus instead of the broken number at 18 beakers. Plus the 2 gold will help later to complete BW
One turn at 50%
Then back to 100% untill we found Sparta, at which point we swap back to 0% untill we reach 24 gold so we can research BW @ 100% which should show @ 10 turns, which will drop with the border pop

If we are bucking for worker turns to get Gems up ASAP, why finish the warrior in sparta?
Start the warrior, then the turn at size 2 start the worker?
Run 0% @ sailing till we have 49 gold then 100%
Then have 2 workers to finish the mine @ Sparta and go to the N gem @ Corinth with two Chop/mining it. Change sparta from cows to Gems Mine
Third worker from Athens chops the forst for the south gem, then 2 mine it
This gives us BW @ 32
Sailing exactly @ Turn 42 right when the warrior finishes in Corinth

Or start the worker in Sparta at size 1, but this leaves sparta at size 1 with the mine ready, not a good option IMHO

Farm the cow instead of mine the hill? This should give sparta some extra early food, grow it a little faster but still need to manually select the gems...
Not working food in favour of Commece usually is a bad idea more food usually means more commerce in the (futher away) future

Or do we finish the warrior (either farming cow or mining hill) before we finish the worker? Just FYI, because of the timing with Mining or farming, the workboat and Bronzeworking comming in. Using the Worker at athens to stop on the partially farmed tile for one turn doesnt cost anything but brings that farm closer.

 

[nocho]

^ Well, not necessarily more casual and less numbers, the main thing is to also clearly state the idea and/or goal behind those numbers.

Speaking for myself here, but there are days I hardly have time to read the thread properly. Those days posts with a clear idea stick better in my head, than the ones with little gems hidden between large lists of numbers. You can argue that that's due to my lack of rigor and you'd be right, but I can't dedicate 24/7 on this, so a little summary of things can be helpful at times.

 

[nocho]

You got me thinking, can we time it such that the first chop from the gems goes into that worker from Sparta? Means least down time in growing Sparta which is key for GLH, while having the obvious benefit from that worker. May test on that tonight.

 

[haphazard1]

I also have days like that, nocho.

How long will it take Sparta to complete the worker? I would prefer not to lose hammers to decay if we can avoid it.

If we have a choice between farming the cow or mining a hill at Sparta I think I would go for mining the hill. We get something of benefit, rather than spending worker turns we know will be "lost" later once we have AH and pasture the cow. Generally I agree that more food == better, especially in the early game. But AH is not that far off, even if we delay it quite a bit for Sailing, etc., and I hate to spend the worker turns that way. Farming wines or calendar resources makes more sense, since there is a much longer time gap where you benefit from the farm before it gets replaced.

So what are the key decisions we need to make before proceeding? Who wants to be the next turn player? Feel free to volunteer by posting a draft PPP.

 

[Ronnie1]

You got me thinking, can we time it such that the first chop from the gems goes into that worker from Sparta? Means least down time in growing Sparta which is key for GLH, while having the obvious benefit from that worker. May test on that tonight.

That is exactly where I have been putting that chop!

 

[namliaM]

Allready accounting for the chop to go into the worker

 

[namliaM]

How long will it take Sparta to complete the worker? I would prefer not to lose hammers to decay if we can avoid it.

at either size 2 either working a mine or farmed cow + Crabs it will produce 7 hammers for the 60 hammer worker = 9 turns

Edit if you use the chop, 40 hammers / 7 = 6 turns

 

[Ronnie1]

Assuming the test game is same to the real game,
Pressing enter from the previous save would put us at 77/80.
Which means we have 7 overflow beakers, we should do next turn at 80% so we get exactly 8 beakers (from our 10 commerce) for a total of 15 and a nice 20% bonus instead of the broken number at 18 beakers. Plus the 2 gold will help later to complete BW
One turn at 50%
Then back to 100% untill we found Sparta, at which point we swap back to 0% untill we reach 24 gold so we can research BW @ 100% which should show @ 10 turns, which will drop with the border pop

I thought I understood what you were talking about before, but now I am confused again, sorry.

Are you saying 80% science slider would have been better than 100% on T16 or T17 even though we have enough gold to go 100%?

 

[Ronnie1]

I would like to see a semi standardized method for reporting test results. Imo, these are some of the metrics I would like to compare.

Population, both total pop and individual city pop
Tile improvements including partial improvements if any
Unit count
Building count
Current build investment or overflow if a fresh build
Total tech + partial investment if any
Gold in bank if any
???

If we have a choice between farming the cow or mining a hill at Sparta I think I would go for mining the hill. We get something of benefit, rather than spending worker turns we know will be "lost" later once we have AH and pasture the cow. Generally I agree that more food == better, especially in the early game. But AH is not that far off, even if we delay it quite a bit for Sailing, etc., and I hate to spend the worker turns that way. Farming wines or calendar resources makes more sense, since there is a much longer time gap where you benefit from the farm before it gets replaced.

So what are the key decisions we need to make before proceeding? Who wants to be the next turn player? Feel free to volunteer by posting a draft PPP.

I agree with the 1st paragraph in principal.

Current key decisions are,

Next Tech
What to build after the Settler and WB complete in Athens
Where to send WB 1st
Build order in Sparta
Scout plan
???

 

[namliaM]

No I am saying since we have 7 beakers overflow from mining to BW, by putting the slider down to 80% you generate 15 beakers total.... save 2 gold along with the other turns of 50% and 100% makes a total of 24 gold good for 8 turns @ 100% and BW to come in.

Since we currently make 10 commerce, the slider doesnt break any commerce and ultimately we save beakers. Because otherwize we end up breaking the slider at the end of BW which DOES lose us beakers actually breaking 16 down to 12 costing 5 beakers to be breakeven instead of -3

 

[namliaM]

I made a comparison, farming the cow gives 9 food (and a few commerce for working the Lake) extra by turn 50, at that time we still need 3 worker turns to put up the pasture. Making the total difference 12 food

Obviously there is 5 additional turns for the farm... First to finish the mine and then to build the pasture. That is 10 hammers lost for having the later pasture or mine.
However with the 9 extra food means 2 turns earlier growth in Sparta which adds 4 hammers per growth assuming that adds a mined grass hill.

Tradeoffs....

 

[namliaM]

I am building
Athens: Finish settler (Sparta) > Finish workboat (Sparta) > Settler (Corinth) > Worker (for gems @ Corinth) > Workboat (Athens) > Settler (Beaver Isle)
Sparta: Workboat (to size 2) > Worker > Workboat (for Beaver Isle)
Corinth: Warrior (MP for Athens or scout) > Galley (with chops)

And 3 mining the northern gem, chopping the second with 2 workers while the third worker starts mining directly
Worker turn technics would be more efficient to 2 mine the northern gems, have the third worker chop the south gem mean time but this costs commerce. Since the first mine is delayed....

 

[Ronnie1]

No I am saying since we have 7 beakers overflow from mining to BW, by putting the slider down to 80% you generate 15 beakers total.... save 2 gold along with the other turns of 50% and 100% makes a total of 24 gold good for 8 turns @ 100% and BW to come in.

Since we currently make 10 commerce, the slider doesnt break any commerce and ultimately we save beakers. Because otherwize we end up breaking the slider at the end of BW which DOES lose us beakers actually breaking 16 down to 12 costing 5 beakers to be breakeven instead of -3

Will you please show me some test results backing up this method?

So you are talking about right now, this upcoming end of turn, correct?

 

[Ronnie1]

I want to submit these test results

Athens = WB > WB > Warrior > Settler > Worker > Warrior *2 > Settler

Sparta = Warrior > Worker > LH, focused on growth by farming Cows asap and working +food all the time allow 2 pop whip of LH into GLH at size 5 ensuring we never loose use of our Gem or the 2 improved food tiles.

Corinth founded and immediately builds Galley, chopped with both Gem forests. Corinth steals Wheat for a few turns to speed growth. Both Gem Mines are working by T49.

At T50
Pop is 6,3,2 for 11 total
Wheat farm, cow farm, 2 turns farming 1W of wheat, 2 turns farming 1N of cow, 3*Gem mine, 2*Net
3*worker, 5*warrior, 1 galley(loaded with 1 worker on water)
No buildings yet, but Corinth whipped this turn for 89/60LH, overflow to GLH.
Athens is 51/100 on settler, could whip now to settle Beaver isle sooner, or whip next turn for max overflow of 2 pop whip.
Corinth is on a new build(warrior, imo) and has 11 carryover.
Techs through Masonry/AH, with some carry over to next tech
18 gold in the bank

EDIT: After ending turn, next tech has 74 and still +9 gold in the bank.

 

[nocho]

^ Ron, I'd be interested to know at what turn (give or take) you get GLH with this approach.

@namliaM, re post 255 would it maybe be more logical to get beaver isle workboat from whipping beaver isle settler in Athens into it? Otherwise WB from Sparta for beaver looks far away...

 

[Ronnie1]

^ Ron, I'd be interested to know at what turn (give or take) you get GLH with this approach.

@namliaM, re post 255 would it maybe be more logical to get beaver isle workboat from whipping beaver isle settler in Athens into it? Otherwise WB from Sparta for beaver looks far away...

Need to run some errands, but I will carry it out later. I am guessing around T70 based on earlier tests.

@MM,
I tried testing 80% on T18 as that is what I understand you are saying. My results say it cost me 1 commerce as compared to Binary all the way through BW + 1 turn on next tech.

After 1 turn into Sailing running full binary(T33), we have 33/162 in Sailing and 2 gold in the bank, = 35 total commerce

Going 80% on T18, then full binary after that, at T33 we have 24/162 in Sailing and 10 gold in the bank, = 34 total commerce.

Am I missing something?

 

[namliaM]

Will you please show me some test results backing up this method?

We actually get kinda lucky with the "burn when you have it" way....
Because at the time we dont break it the total of commerce stays in tact, much like I do while running 80 and 50% at 10 commerce to prevent losing coins

Left pic is "my way", right of the red line is "burn it when you have it"
At 2840 we have 16 beakers and 16 commerce running at -3 maintenance.
Because of this beautifull 16 (much like the nice 10) you can break that into 50% 8 gold and 8 science.... but anything other would break...

In this case actually you are simply exchanging 1 beaker for 1 gold which isnt all bad and still research BW on the same turn as well

If however if you stick true to true binary research you wouldnt do 50s or 80s at all.
But early in the game controling this gives you a headstart

If you get "unlucky" and need to break on a different turn....

Since 11 - 3 = 8 vs the 7+0 = 7
and at 50% 2 gold + 5 beakers = 7