SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[namliaM]

^ Ron, I'd be interested to know at what turn (give or take) you get GLH with this approach.

This question really belongs back at turn 1 doesnt it? It all binds together...

@namliaM, re post 255 would it maybe be more logical to get beaver isle workboat from whipping beaver isle settler in Athens into it? Otherwise WB from Sparta for beaver looks far away...

It looks far away, however my reasoning is this
1) timing wize its perfect
2) Athens is already low on pop from spamming settlers / workers @ size 3/4! Sitting at size 4 at turn 50 instead of the possible size 6 nearly 7 with the beaver up (and MP)

Building a straight Galley from Corinth I couldnt do since I didnt have Sailing at the time that Corinth was settled?
Though my Corinth was settled significantly earlier than yours.

At T50
Pop 4,4,2,1 (yes beaver isle is settled)
Wheat farm, cow farm, 3 turns farming 1W of wheat, 3 gem mines 3 nets, beavers are camped
3 workers 1 warrior 1 galley
19/60 into Lighthouse in Sparta.

Believe I teched AH > Masonry
End turn puts The wheel @ 73 beakers and 9 gold in the bank

I obviously like Ronnies more, since it is -oddly enough- more like I been trying to do from the start (grow Athens a bit more) vs this approach which keeps Athens low on pop... atleast 4 pop in Athens working the power tiles available...

 

[Ronnie1]

We actually get kinda lucky with the "burn when you have it" way....
Because at the time we dont break it the total of commerce stays in tact, much like I do while running 80 and 50% at 10 commerce to prevent losing coins

Left pic is "my way", right of the red line is "burn it when you have it"
At 2840 we have 16 beakers and 16 commerce running at -3 maintenance.
Because of this beautifull 16 (much like the nice 10) you can break that into 50% 8 gold and 8 science.... but anything other would break...

In this case actually you are simply exchanging 1 beaker for 1 gold which isnt all bad and still research BW on the same turn as well

If however if you stick true to true binary research you wouldnt do 50s or 80s at all.
But early in the game controling this gives you a headstart

If you get "unlucky" and need to break on a different turn....

Since 11 - 3 = 8 vs the 7+0 = 7
and at 50% 2 gold + 5 beakers = 7

I think all that juggling costs you 1 commerce.

 

[Ronnie1]

This question really belongs back at turn 1 doesnt it? It all binds together...

Yes, but here is where we are. We chose to move 2E on T0 and settle on T1. We chose to build WB first to allow growth to size 2. We chose to switch to settler at size 2 so we could settle Sparta asap. Now is when it is relevant.

I obviously like Ronnies more, since it is -oddly enough- more like I been trying to do from the start (grow Athens a bit more) vs this approach which keeps Athens low on pop... atleast 4 pop in Athens working the power tiles available...

I have tested many variations of the first 30-50-80 turns. This last one is reasonable imo.

The reason I like comparing the specific metrics is the trade offs become more obvious.

Clearly you are ahead in Tech, but at the cost of significant hammers in the wonder city. Beaver Isle is founded but Beaver + Athens total pop is less.

 

[namliaM]

Clearly you are ahead in Tech, but at the cost of significant hammers in the wonder city. Beaver Isle is founded but Beaver + Athens total pop is less.

Wonder city is a matter of prioritization, I was going for more cities and more commerce NOW. i.e. work the Gem mine ASAP, hence the extra commerce.
While working the farmed cows to get to size 3 obviously will get more population faster at the expense of some commerce now.

Beaver + Athens isnt true if you are going to 2 pop whip athens in the next turn or two...
pop would actually be equal-ish in about 3-4 turns or so

in the intrest of not dragging up by gones and dead animals, I am going to ignore

Now is when it is relevant.

 

[nocho]

in the intrest of not dragging up by gones and dead animals, I am going to ignore

Now is when it is relevant.

Of course it is relevant now. As it was on T1, but agree with Ronnie here. I don't really understand your attitude here, must say. Kind of annoys me too TBH. Yes we could have made other choices earlier, but we're rather obviosuly still on a path where we can make different choices that lead to different outcomes.

To me the question of when to build GLH is pretty much #1 boundary condition in our calculations and considerations. Should we get it asap, or rather do we think it's save until Tx and see a path with more general growth/commerce where we can still get GLH by Tx. What number is x? Can't see how that's irrelevant now. Might've missed it, but haven't seen you comment on it either in general terms.

 

[namliaM]

I think all that juggling costs you 1 commerce.

I will conceed that point well made, just goes to show how imperfect a plan can be due to the 1 beaker overflow I have is getting rounded down in this instance

Planning is hard

 

[Ronnie1]

^ Ron, I'd be interested to know at what turn (give or take) you get GLH with this approach.

@namliaM, re post 255 would it maybe be more logical to get beaver isle workboat from whipping beaver isle settler in Athens into it? Otherwise WB from Sparta for beaver looks far away...

Straight build after whipping the LH. 2 workers dedicated to transforming the city. GLH complete at end of T67.

I am sure there is still more that can be squeezed out of this approach.

At T67,

Pop of, 5,5,3,2,1
Wheat farm + farm 1W, Cow pasture, 7*mine, 2*camp
4 worker
6 live warriors + 1 dead
1 Lighthouse
2 Libraries
Tech = AH > Masonry > Writing > Wheel > Math with a carryover to Pottery of about 1/2 the tech.

I thing I immediately notice is that my very early tests that had Pottery early seemed to have more infrastructure by the same time.

Decided to carry this out to T80 for fun.

At T80, we have all of above + (technically another warrior died in the test game)

2* Granary
1 Lighthouse (2 total)
1 Library (3 total)

Corn Farm
2*Mine
3.5* Cottage
some roads

Partial builds

Athens = 46/100 Settler + 4 turns to a GS
Sparta = 50/60 Granary, will complete this turn
Corinth = 40/60 Granary (stalled at 1/2 food bar on purpose)
Beaver = 49/60 Lighthouse
Corn City = 30/60 Library + 6/60 Granary
New Deer = 10/60 Granary

Currency just in IBT
59 in the bank

 

[Ronnie1]

I will conceed that point well made, just goes to show how imperfect a plan can be due to the 1 beaker overflow I have is getting rounded down in this instance

Planning is hard

I use the F2 screen. It is the easiest place to move the slider and see what actually happens.

 

[haphazard1]

I use the F2 screen. It is the easiest place to move the slider and see what actually happens.

I also use the F2 screen for checking the results of the slider early in the game when losing 1 commerce is a significant percentage of your total output. Ideally you could always check this throughout the game, but I get lazy once my total commerce is 100/turn or so.

T67 for Great Lighthouse (or around that) should be pretty safe, from what was described of tests for the wonder date? We can't know for certain, of course, since we do not know the situation with the AIs in the real game. An industrious civ on the coast, or a civ with a hammer heavy capital on the coast, could still beat us even with our best target date. Let's hope that does not happen.

It sounds like both namliaM's and Ronnie1's tests favor going ahead and farming the cow? I guess it makes sense, even if my finicky nature does not spending worker turns that way.

 

[Ronnie1]

I never really considered farming the cow until nocho wanted to know how long to GLH. The only way to really speed it up is by adding pop, and that is the 2nd best pop tile there.

Once I tried it, the timing worked out pretty well.

 

[namliaM]

I use the F2 screen. It is the easiest place to move the slider and see what actually happens.

Basicaly comes down to bad luck to good planning IMO.
a well planned 1 beaker overflow vs what feels like a "lucky" no overflow
Either some overflow on your side or any other commerce on the turn you need to break the commerce down in and you either end up missing that one commerce or losing a turn on the completion of BW....

Not too sure about farming the cow tbh...

I made a comparison, farming the cow gives 9 food (and a few commerce for working the Lake) extra by turn 50, at that time we still need 3 worker turns to put up the pasture. Making the total difference 12 food

Obviously there is 5 additional turns for the farm... First to finish the mine and then to build the pasture. That is 10 hammers lost for having the later pasture or mine.
However with the 9 extra food means 2 turns earlier growth in Sparta which adds 4 hammers per growth assuming that adds a mined grass hill.

Again this is a trade off, 9 extra food vs 10 hammers loss NOW
vs 4 hammers every pop grown in the future (assuming grass mine worked)

 

[Ronnie1]

Basicaly comes down to bad luck to good planning IMO.
a well planned 1 beaker overflow vs what feels like a "lucky" no overflow
Either some overflow on your side or any other commerce on the turn you need to break the commerce down in and you either end up missing that one commerce or losing a turn on the completion of BW....

And that is why I like to test things! It is very easy to compare results that way.

Did you play it to completion of GLH not farming the cow?

 

[Ronnie1]

The F2 screen makes it really easy early. Before you have any modifiers, either Scientists or Libraries.

At 100% you see your total available commerce. As you move the slider the total of gold and beakers is either = to total commerce or less than. If it is less than, I would avoid doing it. There are times however when it may be necessary for other reasons.

 

[nocho]

A question: have we discarded the Oracle?

If not, pottery and certainly writing should be substituted for a run to PH. With all the gems that still should be pretty quickly.

 

[Ronnie1]

I don't think we have ruled out much of anything. Writing for our cheap Libraries is still a priority imo.

I am honestly not very confident chasing many wonders on Immortal.

It can certainly be investigated.

Sailing > AH > Masonry > Wheel > Myst > Poly > Priesthood would be the path then?

No marble.

I'll go back through as many of my T80 saves as I can find and see where The Oracle is falling,

 

[Sleepless]

A question: have we discarded the Oracle?

If not, pottery and certainly writing should be substituted for a run to PH. With all the gems that still should be pretty quickly.

I hadn't just didn't want to put the argument up yet.. Especially regarding pushing pottery back again..

 

[haphazard1]

I am skeptical we can get both the Great Lighthouse and the Oracle. And if we can get only one, I prefer the Great Lighthouse.

If we did pursue both, what would be the target free tech? Metal Casting? Would need to get Pottery, although I suppose we could finish that while building the wonder itself. Without marble the Oracle is less attractive, and I don't see us able to pull off a slingshot for a bigger tech without sacrificing the Great Lighthouse.

So where are we on deciding what we need to do next? Anyone interested in posting a draft PPP?

 

[Ronnie1]

I think I know what we want to do through Bronze Working.

 

[namliaM]

So where are we on deciding what we need to do next? Anyone interested in posting a draft PPP?

Let me take a shot...

Scout
Go run about after ensuring settler safety... Do I run it far and fast (2 steps at a time) or do one step and try and ensure his safety?
What to do when we meet other AI? Stop?
Or simply continue and if continue what to do with EP?

Worker
Mine the hill
Farm W of wheat ( no need to rush the gems if we are growing Sparta first, also grows athens faster meanwhile)
Farm cow
Go to mine gem

Settle Sparta
Warrior
Worker ( * )
Lighthouse

Athens
Finish settler
Finish workboat (goes to nets @ Sparta)
Workboat (for Athens, force the mine @ size 3 add farm @ 4)
Settler

Tech Bronzeworking, burning when we have it.

* In this game I build it after the warrior finished

At T50,

Pop of, 4, 4, 2 ( just 2 pop whipped the settler for Beaver Isle)
Wheat farm + farm 1W, Cow pasture, 4*mine, 1*camp
3 worker (two in boat for Beavers)
2 mp warriors

Tech = Got sailing > AH (to pasture the cows ASAP) >
Then misclicked and put 52 beakers into Wheel
Then went back to Masonry and put 53 beakers in
Should obviously have Masonry as next tech researched already....

Both Turn 32 (bronzeworking in) and T50 saves attached TGL is a long way off though

 

[nocho]

I don't think we should squeeze in AH before both sailing and masonry are in. But IF we would, then it better go before sailing. Anyway, the problem is it delays GLH too much as you note.

As I understood, farming cow is precisely because we postpone AH. Also, wouldn't it be better for that worker to immediately farm cow rather than that tile W of wheat? Growing Sparta looks more critical than growing Athens. However, if we do NOT farm the cow, then I agree it makes sense to finish that farm W of wheat, as Sparta won't be working mines until size 3.