SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

namliaM · Jan 15, 2015

Article on tech research:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tech_research.php

I thought it was a flat 3% per civ that is known and knows the tech but its actually a formula

With 9 opponents we know one that knows agri (willem)
0.3 *1 / 10 = 0.03 aka 3%

This is the reason why "binary research" works for bonus beakers...
Not only working on 0 vs 100%, but also working on multiples of 10 or 15 beakers....
If you research a tech like BW with one white line you get 20% research bonus, by researching it at 10 beakers (not includint the 1 free beaker) per turn you actually put in 12 + 1 beakers
If you go at 14 beakers, you get 16 + 1 beakers into BW
If you generate 15 beakers you get 18 + 1 beakers into BW

Breaking the % into non-even numbers you lose beakers i.e. if we generate 12 commerce
Effect shown here:

The second effect is the rounding down of broken numbers...

The result of which is that instead of 12 beakers at 100% or 12 gold at 0% You get 1 gold and 10 beakers
If you are at -1 cost at 100% research it is better to do one turn at 0% then 11 at 100% for 11 "bonus" beakers which is nearly a full turn of commerce
Add to that the possibility of getting 11 additional beakers from breaking above threshold .... binary research just saved you 2 full turns of research.

I used to know this, the article just reminded me of it.
The effect is most noticable in the early game offcourse where 1 or 2 beakers is a significant bonus to you current amount of commerce.
Once you get to 100 and more it becomes insignificant but it still exists

Ronnie1 · Jan 15, 2015

nocho said:
Ron, for the sake of my curiousity, could you work points 1&2 from my previous posts into your plan?

Grow fast with riverside grass > wheat when available > improved deer only 1 turn(8).

Grow to size 2 ibt T8-9, switch to settler.

Sorry nocho, thought I posted the log with the save.

Spoiler :

Sleepless · Jan 15, 2015

trying to catch up here and work/going out has put me well behind on the posts :lol:

Also can't use quotes (at work) so makes it worse trying to reply..

MM at start of turn set. If working the wheat rather than unimproved deer gets us to size 2 and agr a turn quicker I'd do that. Possibly why I had to wait a turn for agr to finish.

Sparta. With the extra hill/river grass I'd go South of the lake now as city number 2. As the double gem site probably doesn't have food I probably agree with namliaM and might settle inland. Probably 1W of the gem on the hill. Though will know more with extra scouting.

Agree with haphazard1 that apart from strategic resources (when needed) food should be the highest priority early on.

Warrior or wb. It looks like we might have a lot of land so some some fogbusting warriors will be needed. First build I still favour wb and Sparta can then produce a few warriors straight away.

Great people.. With our philo trait the first gp only takes 9 turns so a fast academy would be a nice tech boost.. Also as someone mentioned a GM would pay most of our costs regarding questions about the ladies. Then again might be better to save for a possible astro bulb. Still with the limited info atm I would probably aim for a very early academy.

Ronnie1 · Jan 15, 2015

I have found settling my first GS is usually more productive than an Academy. I can see us saving them up for an Astro bulb path here actually.

nocho · Jan 15, 2015

So if we go WB first, how do we get to settle our settler safely? Probably S of lake is indeed slightly preferrable to SE, but makes settling without cover even more risky. Are we using our scout for that, seriously hampering our exploration? Risking settlers or workers are no-go for me. I just don't see the WB first as a real option if we pretend to get a settler out asap after growth to size 2. The case will be even worse if there actually would be a superior site up north near the gems for Sparta.

namliaM · Jan 15, 2015

why would you work improved deer only one turn? It produces 4 food over the three of the wheat?

We still need to decide upon
1) Warrior > Something 1 turn > Settler (at size 2)
2) Workboat (partial) > Settler (at size 2)
3) Workboat (full) > Settler (at size 3)

Also tech route after Agri ? Wheel? Mining? and after that? Pottery? BW?

2 and 3 we either get a small risk at settling SE of the lake or need to have the scout or worker available to unfog the area.
I would settle Sparta SE of the lake for 2 reasons
1) We can when settled immediatly utilize the farm west of the Wheat
2) leaves room for a city on the river without too much overlap

Perhaps scouting should be re-evaluated by going N-NW,

I made another few attempts at different versions

3)
1 spare warrior + 3 MPs
2 workers (+1 we got free at the start)
9 pop
Agri 97 > Mining 80 > BW 195> Wheel 97 > Pottery 130 > AH (105/162) 704 total beakers
I think this techpath coincides nicely with availibity of builds and worker turns, what do you think Ronnie?
Delayed the settler for the third city by one turn so the overflow from a 3 pop settler whip can overflow to the granary which insta finished with 1 additional chop from the south hill

Spoiler :

Here my builds at Athens was
Workboat (full, with a little juggling done 1 turn before growing to size 3 so the crabs are immediately available)
Workboat (1 turn to allow growth)
Settler (working Deer/Wheat/Crabs)
Workboat (for Sparta toggle hammers to get it asap)
Warrior MP (toggle hammers to coincide with growing to 5)
Worker
Warrior (grow to 6)
Settler (3 pop whiped)
Insta granary

Build one worker from Sparta, with the chop from the gems... After the fact we can store this worker a turn or two to 1 pop whip the worker the turn before pottery comes in. This should add 30+ hammers to the granary, or speed its production by 10 turns... not sure if we want to finish it or keep it in queue with a 2 pop whip... for 30-ish hammer overflow to TGL

haphazard1 · Jan 15, 2015

namliaM said:
Also tech route after Agri ? Wheel? Mining? and after that? Pottery? BW?

This is still undecided/being discussed. but we can play through Agriculture without needing to have this settled. Maybe we will learn something that will help us make the decision.

Most interesting to me is the question of how close any AIs may be. I certainly hope we can claim all the three gems without conflict with AI civs. But will we have room for a ring of cities beyond that?

Sleepless · Jan 15, 2015

If we want to go safety first we should go for the warrior as build in Athens. Faster growth for Sparta the wb from Athens seems faster. Unlikely to see any panthers from where we are but wolves are a possibility so perhaps warrior first then.. I'm happy either way..

Sleepless · Jan 15, 2015

Ronnie1 said:
I have found settling my first GS is usually more productive than an Academy. I can see us saving them up for an Astro bulb path here actually.

Generally my first GS goes on a philo bulb as a way to catch up the AI.

I agree an astro bulb line is better atm from what we know.

Sleepless · Jan 15, 2015

namliaM said:
why would you work improved deer only one turn? It produces 4 food over the three of the wheat? Extra food and 2 hammers is better than 1 coin to my mind as well

We still need to decide upon
1) Warrior > Something 1 turn > Settler (at size 2) My safe choice )
2) Workboat (partial) > Settler (at size 2)
3) Workboat (full) > Settler (at size 3)

Also tech route after Agri ? Wheel? Mining? and after that? Pottery? BW? I still prefer mining bw but as a choice I'd rather go agr - mining - wheel as the mines are immediately useful. Roads not so much

2 and 3 we either get a small risk at settling SE of the lake or need to have the scout or worker available to unfog the area.
I would settle Sparta SE of the lake for 2 reasons
1) We can when settled immediatly utilize the farm west of the Wheat
2) leaves room for a city on the river without too much overlap Isn't the idea to cottage Athens.. Not my idea btw as I rarely build them..

Perhaps scouting should be re-evaluated by going N-NW, Seems reasonable

Couple of comments

namliaM · Jan 15, 2015

I tried option 2

2 spare warriors + 3 MPs (one more warrior)
2 workers + 1 from the start
8 pop

Same tech path to AH (73/162)
32 beakers less, 3 gold more

3rd city was founded a little later, and Athens is 1 pop smaller

First workboat from Athens in both options 2 and 3 went towards Sparta, with the Wheat/Deer/GH Mine to speed the second workboat for Athens

Screeny

Spoiler :

Log

Spoiler :

Obviously option 1 will be slightly behind the 2nd simply because we insert the warrior at the start.
I really believe we can work the scout to defog the forest or sacrifice one turn from the worker to ensure settler safety.
Worker turn will cost a food and I didnt do it in any of the test games.... but if we want safety I think the one food vs faster Crabs is a good tradeoff.

namliaM · Jan 15, 2015

@Ronnie
1) You didnt upload the save?
Could just repeat the two steps, but doubt that is allowed.

2) How do you postpone selecting a tech after settling a city?

I really find my new techpath nice...
Agri > Mining > BW > Wheel > Pottery > .... selected AH just because the cow is nearly up for improving....
You get potter just in synch with the build in athens in either scenario to overflow and chop into the granary and pritty much have it the turn after discovering Pottery and have spare food soon so we can share the wheat, assuming we settle Corinth on the hill (which I chopped before settling to add an addition 10 hammers to Athens)
However I am not sure how that works out towards the future in getting TGL

namliaM · Jan 15, 2015

Wow someone is doing something different on the power side of things....
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/...ate=-4000&enddate=-3120&submit=Refresh#format

I know you can try and read those graphs, not sure how usefull that is though....

Ronnie1 · Jan 15, 2015

@Ronnie
1) You didnt upload the save?
Could just repeat the two steps, but doubt that is allowed.

No I did not upload a save this time. I have it saved, there is no need to replay anything.

The intention is for the scout to go clockwise to expose all of our immediate settling options around the 3 gems and then fogbust the preferred site.

I chose WB first because I feel it is a small risk early for a chance to really jump start our second city. The 1st WB going there speeds up everything for city 2 tremendously.

Working the Wheat longer gets us our growth at the same time but gets Agriculture a turn sooner as nocho pointed out. This means no wasted worker turns after the camp.

You de-select your tech by clicking on the research bar at the top of the window.

I really find my new techpath nice...
Agri > Mining > BW > Wheel > Pottery > .... selected AH just because the cow is nearly up for improving....

I played with that path some, but Sailing > Masonry after Pottery.

The power ratings could be a single warrior at this point.

namliaM · Jan 15, 2015

I worked the crabs 1 turn after border pop, this is -1 food + 1 Commerce.
But you can swap to the deer the turn that the camp is done, +1 food + 2 hammers...
Net gain of 2 hammers, which ultimately gets the workboat out 1 turn earlier, which makes for 2 food earlier in Sparta and earlier crabs in Athens, etc etc...

BTW, I created a save updated with the latest intell from scouting and also made us meet Willem.
He does give us the required extra beaker so the crab isnt needed anymore
Not sure about the AH or Sailing option, the two hammers from the cow would help in prebuilding TGL
I have been farming the riverside at Sparta, farming the cow would add food, but lose a worker turn in moving and possibly delay the Gem in sparta by one turn...
Also loses 1 commerce for not working the riverside but should add some food.... Yet more testing to do

I think we should finish the Granary in Sparta ASAP and prebuild TGL using Lighthouse and perhaps a barracks , settler or worker?
Really need to experiment with that a little bit, a quick test thru AH > Sailing > Masonry (5 turns research each)
Some whips and 3 chops (after maths) gets me TGL by 1000BC (turn 75)

nocho · Jan 16, 2015

How many turns would we work unimproved wheat vs camped deer? If it's more than 1 then I don't think it's really justified. Improved wheat a turn earlier means a gain of 3 food vs n*(1f2h) with n number of turns. Losing those hammers also means later workboat, which represents a net food loss too. In short, if n>1 I'd just work our best tile, which by then is camped deer.

Sleepless · Jan 16, 2015

namliaM said:
I think we should finish the Granary in Sparta ASAP and prebuild TGL using Lighthouse and perhaps a barracks , settler or worker?
Really need to experiment with that a little bit, a quick test thru AH > Sailing > Masonry (5 turns research each)
Some whips and 3 chops (after maths) gets me TGL by 1000BC (turn 75)

1000BC might be a bit tight on finishing. With all its production Sparta could possibly be better not whipping and just working mines??

Need to play around with that a bit..

Ronnie1 · Jan 16, 2015

And the actual turn count to Agriculture may change if we meet another AI or 2 that know it before T9!

According to the autolog I posted of the test, the Camp is completed on T7 but used only on T8 = -1 turn.

Ronnie1 · Jan 16, 2015

I have been building/whipping into/chopping the GLH in Sparta, completing about 1100-1300BC.

Ronnie1 · Jan 16, 2015

I have played to Agriculture with nothing unforeseen happening at all.

The bad news is that there is very little food in our starting area. What we saw early is pretty much it for the first 3 cities unless we hike way north, and that food can't reach both eastern gems.

I have NOT UPLOADED the save at this point. I don't see a reason to put a save on the graph yet if we don't need to.

Here is the autolog

Spoiler :

I was able to get the extra commerce from Willem and was able to use the Deer Camp for 2 turns and still get Ag T9!

I will update the test map terrain and play it up to the current position. Then we can evaluate some options.

Screen shots below.
Demo screen from T1 when we founded and uncovered lands to the north.
I have dot mapped the save to show possibilities. White dots I prefer. Yellow dots are possible. Yellow dot in NE only viable if there is food on the 2 tiles still fogged.

Close city I prefer white dot because there are more forests for GLH.

Spoiler :

SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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