SGOTM 22 - TTfkapr

[Gumbolt]

Finally back home. No real shocls from viewing the screens on live save. Do remember to put it in pause mode if you are not the active player.

4 turns is fine but remember the demo screens for each first 10 turns. We can gain so much info from these. Especially to see if the Ai start with improved resources. Worth also checking top 5 city screens too to see if any changes. The other screen we usually check if the screen that tells us the population %. Land %. Are there any barb cities??

Looking at start there is an unusual amount of mountain about. I figure this is part of the editing of pangea.

My only other thought is we are limited on cities. Nothing to stop us gifting cities and destroying them at a later date.

If there ever any occasion where we capture a city and can't destroy it? Or a city joins our nation? I assume these are all still possible? I would guess we would have to refuse??

Even if we build great wall we will still need fog busters or the barbs will form cities on the best sites. I see no way around fog busting here?

The scouting plan looks fine so far. I don't think we are in danger from barbs so early on according to Shulecs testing. Barbs start a bit later on Monarch.

 

[Packers5280]

Scouting plan looks good to me as well.

I'm definitely for GW. Would be good to steal monarchy since we won't be able to trade for it. However, it should be a very slow teching game for the AI so stealing techs may be a problem. If we get the GW, the AI will have to deal with the barbs, which will slow them down, in addition to the no tech trading and aggressive AI. I've recently played a game with raging barbs on Monarch, and some AI, if they have a lot of open land around them, really struggle with the pressure. Even with bonuses.

This game may require a quick conquest with a lot of razing. If we beeline HBR, it would be annoying to have HA in the capital as the highest strength unit if we want anymore cities.

 

[Gumbolt]

Wait and see if we have any horse. At present we only have 1 food resource to make whipping great. The rest would depend heavily on farming. Of course on Monarchy techs should arrive a bit faster than the higher levels.

Great wall is only good if were assuming we can't HA rush all the AI. Assuming we even have a horse resource. Even then we would still need the 7 world wonders. Restricting 3-4 Ai to 1-2 city early on would be nice.

 

[Packers5280]

Here's a spiel on some wonders that we could go for

Ancient:
Great Wall - seems like a good idea now for ES economy
Great Lighthouse - unlikely we will move our capital to the coast
Oracle - Probably will be tricky to get due to AIs starting with PH
Pyramids - Unlikely unless we have stone, otherwise expensive. GE points as well which would be useful rushing a wonder.
Stonehedge - Not really on desired tech path. We could get it if its late. Maybe even get it along way to oracle if both are late
Temple of Artemis - No

Classical Wonder
Parthenon - Could be a good idea, but a great priest isn't ideal. Extra great people generation % helpful.
Statue of Zeus - Probably not, unless we have ivory. Only reason would be to deny it to the AI.
Schewedagon Paya - Probably not.
Hanging Gardens - Not really useful as rules are designed to keep city count down. Although extra health in capital could be nice. GE points as well which would be useful rushing a wonder.
Colossus - Capital non coastal
Mausoleum of Maussollos - Could be a good idea, pending on how many GAges we plan on having. Good for space, not so good for conquest
Great Library - Useful for GS points for bulbing to lib.
Chitchen Itza - Not really

Medieval
AP - Only use would be to deny to AI or to control it
Notre Dame - Extra happiness could be useful, but probably not
Hagia Sophia - Probably not
Sistine Chapel - Probably not as no culture victory
University of Sankore - Probably not, although if we are way ahead of the AI could be useful if we have spread a religion around
Spiral - dependent on religion
Versailles - probably not due to low city count
Angkor Wat - Probably Not, unless we have a holy city and want to found the holy building

Renaissance
Taj - GAges are always useful.

Other wonders not considered due to being too late for conquest.

My opinion would be GW, Parth, GL, Maus, and HG for an earlier win. Although getting monarchy could be on obstacle to these wonders. Taj would be useful for a Cur/Calvary conquest.

Of course, if we have marble nearby, it makes those wonders more enticing, as with stone nearby for the stone wonders.

It also depends on some things, such is how spread around our religion is. Religion benefits Sankore, Spiral, and AP.

 

[shulec]

PPP Turn 0-3 to be played in 24 hours.

Settle Rome. SIP. Do we defy an name it something other that Rome?
Cancel research every turn before hitting enter.
Screen shot Top 5 City page, Demographics page, the victories page if any AI are met.

Name warriors. Themes?

• 6 can go SW-SW-SE and south(east) if it reveals some land south of the Peaks
• 9 can go W-W-W-SW and zig-zag along the coast. We might be able to create a foreign coastal trade route this direction.
• 12 can go NW-NW-NW-then look for a hill with two tile view, if not head away from jungle toward a river
• 3 can go NE-NE-NE-SE

Stop points:
Meet an AI
Weird occurance

 

[elitetroops]

Finally had a look at save. Nothing very special noticed. Map has 928 land tiles, which is a bit more than a normal medium sealevel pangaea. There will be a lot of room for barbs to spawn. Makes a stronger argument for GW.

Green for scouting plan. When you meet an AI, please also post their score. A lot of info can be derived from that early on.

For later scouting, we must remember that we need 4 military units in cap when we found next city, so don't send them all far away.

For wonders, I think we will have to go for whatever is cheapest. If we have ivory, but no stone/marble, then SoZ is definitely worth it. Let's find some bonus resources and capture them fast. I suspect marble and stone won't be found nearby..

 

[soundjata]

I am trying to figure out what will be the optimal strategy for this game. A couple of ideas striking me:

- Bronze Working can be delayed for quite a while without much cost. Early game hammers (aka settlers) are not an issue : there aren't any deity AIs competing for our land.
How long is it best to delay BW ?
Before lib : questionable.
Before Math : obvious.
Can we benefit from a delay on BW in order to bulb a strategical medieval tech ?

- Rome is required to produce an imbalance of buildings compared to settlers, while we are imperialistic. What is the best way to optimise Caput Mundi's production while maintaining an economy that is able to sustain its hunger for production and expansion
Cottages ?

Spoiler :

I don't think so

 

[soundjata]

Suppose our initial 6 cities are placed 3 tiles away from an AI city.

Suppose we have Scotland Yard in Rome and a Courthouse (60 hammers = 2 chops) in the 6 cities.

Suppose we run our own state religion (OR!) and spread it around.

Research slider = 0%
Unit count = ???


@ wonders

Spoiler :

TGW : Essential.
The Temple of Artemis : Priests and Merchants please. Big capitol needs big traderoutes.
Globe Theater : Nice in conjunction with theatres for cultural pressure

 

[elitetroops]

Main problem with delaying BW is that this leaves us with few options for taking out AI. Without horses there's really nothing we can do. The earlier we can start killing AI the better, I think. With this much land and our limitations on expansion, we might be facing 10-15 city empires later in the game. Taking some out while they still are at 2-3 cities is a lot better. With Praets we could take out several AI at minimal cost. But would the mapmaker be so kind to give us iron?

I don't know what to expect from AI expansion. Anyone played monarch with lots of land recently? In the monarch domination game for the challenger series I found that the AI would reach 5-6 cities by 500BC, but that was on micro pangaea with no room for any more cities.

 

[soundjata]

PPP Turn 0-3 to be played in 24 hours.

Settle Rome. SIP. Do we defy an name it something other that Rome?
Cancel research every turn before hitting enter.
Screen shot Top 5 City page, Demographics page, the victories page if any AI are met.

Name warriors. Themes?

• 6 can go SW-SW-SE and south(east) if it reveals some land south of the Peaks
• 9 can go W-W-W-SW and zig-zag along the coast. We might be able to create a foreign coastal trade route this direction.
• 12 can go NW-NW-NW-then look for a hill with two tile view, if not head away from jungle toward a river
• 3 can go NE-NE-NE-SE

Stop points:
Meet an AI
Weird occurance

for first turnset plan.

Don't forget unselecting our initial tech each turn please.

Next turnset we might consider switching from AH to beelining Monotheism

 

[soundjata]

Main problem with delaying BW is that this leaves us with few options for taking out AI. Without horses there's really nothing we can do. The earlier we can start killing AI the better, I think. With this much land and our limitations on expansion, we might be facing 10-15 city empires later in the game. Taking some out while they still are at 2-3 cities is a lot better. With Praets we could take out several AI at minimal cost. But would the mapmaker be so kind to give us iron?

I don't know what to expect from AI expansion. Anyone played monarch with lots of land recently? In the monarch domination game for the challenger series I found that the AI would reach 5-6 cities by 500BC, but that was on micro pangaea with no room for any more cities.

It's not a matter of warring early but a matter of warring swiftly and efficiently.

If we can beline Feudalism before BW, we have Longbows + TGW + Culture + Espionage to control weak AIs.

Monarch expansion can certainly be controlled more efficiently by global and mutualised means than by early wars.

Spoiler :

Sorry my longbow accidently stepped on your worker

 

[Gumbolt]

Tech wise. Let's play the map as we find it. If we find chariots then we can use these to pin down nearby Ai and steal workers. If we don't have horse we need other options. Once we have more map info and AI info we can decide on tech route. Gw route. Oracle route or something else. BW will be great for whipping but for now we want to get 3-4 cities early on.

The demo screens early on will show if an Ai has serious production. With Agg AI they will be more likely to build units?

Given challenge of map it does appear cottages will slow down us city wise. We want Rome to be huge and to be a production beast.

Ai positions. Once we have our map grid reference you can normally assume the AI layout. In most cases Ai are spaced 10-12 tiles apart. This should be true for a pangea adapted map.

I think we need to get this game rolling.

 

[Packers5280]

Green from me for that plan.

I do think we should go after GW even if we have horses. I would imagine most AIs are a ways away from us so more barbs spawn and punish those who don't have the GW. The AI are going to expand slowly, especially if we get chariots, as are we. Which means a steady flow of barbs for quite a while. Spears are likely, along with axes.

I would also imagine our city spots are going to be goofy. I don't think we can have a close empire to work cottages, so I do agree on avoiding cottages in the capital. We will probably have to have our cities grab strategic resources or wonder resources, no matter how far the distance is, which means units for guarding settlers and workers roading. GW means we can leave those cities undefended once they do settle and the workers are within the borders

 

[shulec]

T0 - nothing
T1 - Meet Saladin - stop point. 100% EP on Saladin until a better target is found. No pre-assigned diplo points.

Screenies:
T0

Spoiler :

T1

Spoiler :

In 24 hours, I plan to play to play until T4 with the plan outlined.

 

[Gumbolt]

Game is not in pause mode! Be careful!

Interesting. From the demo it seems clear the AI start with free resources. Crop yields of 5 and 7 seem pretty high. Free pigs or corn? Production of 4 suggests someone might start on stone or marble or had a cow resource. We will have to watch what happens when they reach size 2. At present there could be a risk to Oracle.

Interestingly by removing domination we can't see the AI land %. A clever ruse by BSP??

Map location 27X 14Y. So 14 north gives a chance for an Ai down south. We may also get a chance at worker stealing here too. I guess we should not gamble by skipping the worker? Warrior should certainly go south towards scout. The coast is deceptive.

 

[soundjata]

Saladin = archer or scout?
XP ?

Main decision is what to do with southern warrior:
Keep exploring south or go back East ?
Worker steal ?

AI mean production at T1 = 5 + 3
1 AI is probably is producing 5 /turn on turn 1.
1 AI has a 5 surplus on turn 1.

Xpost

 

[soundjata]

If we plan on dowing Saladin soon, we should keep close track of the scout and take him on flatland.

There's a penalty for bringing back a slave from the south (tundra forest)

 

[elitetroops]

Most AI are landlocked. Saladin appears to have 2 more ancient techs than we do. Myst+TW+Hunt+Arch+???, I suppose. Maybe the last one is Agri and BSP has given all AI immortal, or even deity, starting techs. Perhaps the same for starting units? (Edit: not units, soldier count would be higher)

That's a weird place for Sal's archer to appear. Wouldn't expect to find an AI down there. Maybe the scout is far away from home to fool us. In any case, Sal's units didn't start in a stack like they usually do, otherwise we should see the cultural borders. Unless there are some prebuilt roads..

 

[Gumbolt]

Firstly it is not an archer it is a scout. Our capital is 14 tiles from bottom of map. His scout is 8 tiles from bottom of map. Is the scout a distraction? The scout clearly did not start in his capital. The AI that was not land locked had 6 land tiles/3 coast. So it's possible Sal could be down there? Would need 2-3 sea food to even make his capital viable. We will know in 4 turns how much more coast he might have if down there. Of course if he is down there maybe BSP plan is to make worker stealing almost impossible.

It looks like there is more coast to east of the southern warrior. Note the corridor of grassland? Also the pattern of forest/jungle. My gut is that we should meet other Ai soon enough. Scouting around capital is also important given raging barbs and lack of food resources. At present city no2 looks like it will have no food resource.

Perhaps use southern warrior to scout around capital and the other 3 to explore. The reality is most of the Ai will be E/N/W of us.

 

[Packers5280]

Interesting idea that the Sally's scout was purposely be placed there. Only way to find out is if we scout more down there. I'm definitely in favor of a worker steal should the opportunity present itself.

Area would suggest 4 at 9000 and 2 at 6000. So it appears only 2 coastal AI.