SGOTM 22 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for all the input, Htadus. Keep it coming.

Joe, if we are going to take 48 turns to build all these units, then we might as well as settle to play a space game. True, true. Otherwise, we use all our resources to get this war on. That means founding these cities as soon as possible and getting the war going.



First I propose a different location to found the chop city. 1S of the original location. This city will also not block coastal passage to Arabia and will be instantly connected to the capital via coast and get us up to 6 gpt. Saves us 12 turns to build a road to connect the city. Sure looks to me like it will block the coast once it expands. Are you talking pre-expansion only?

OK here is the scenario I see.
Send GM to do the trade now and trade pig to Sal for happy resource. Concur
Switch capital to build a settler. 2 turns. Concur
Move that archer (1) heading to HE city toward the Forest city tile. Or into the capital if we found Iron City first. That city does not need a defender. And if someone want to come and take it from us, then it will speed our war very much. Yes, Antium is not terribly useful. Should we just gift it to Darius and speed founding 2 useful cities.?
Learn Math on full speed. If we found IronCity first, won't we have time to finish Alpha then Math?
Cow city start an archer and whip it next turn. It need to provide 2 archers and chop a settler to do this and then a worker. This need to be tuned. Worker might be whipped in capital right after cities founded.
In 2 turns, the capita switch to a wb and then archers and onto full growth. Priority is growing to size 8 (4-5 turns working food tiles) and then to 10. So the capital need two more farms. Not sure time to build farms is justified. Rather use workers elsewhere (roading and pre-chopping) and delay founding a turn or two but have more infrastructure in place.. When the WB is done, it should go check the peninsula to see if the Iron city can be connected via coast. Concur
So in 7-8 turns from now, we should settle the Chop city. 2 workers start chopping with Math already learned or about to learn. Chop the Monument and Rax and start prechopping. Eventually all the workers should be there. I'm going to test Forest City vs Iron City for turning out units. Forest city does provide units closer to the front, if the front is SAL.

Yes I am completely ignoring the HE city. It can work on its own new worker at size 2. See above.Also, if we gift Antium to Darius, then we could found three more cities including a Horse City. Thoughts on that?

With Alpha, can't we start running a spy in the capital. How important is that?

Well that is basically the idea.

@ CP. I do not even want to go after the hill cities at all. Our goal should be medina and Mecca. Understand not capturing hill cities, but Medina is also a hill city that has 60 culture and probably will have an axe or two by the time we get there.. we can raze cities along the way but not before capturing the two prizes. Is this because you want to avoid loosing units until those two desirable cities are taken?[COLOR="red"]Do we still have to worry about size of capital, number of cap defenders, and buildings in cap, if we take and immediately raze a city?[/COLOR]

If we are going to war then no la la gaging plan and execute asap. Concur. BTW, the reason for going after Sal is that those are some sweet cities and if we can get to him before he gets his dredded LB's, we are golden.

Follow that.

Is it true that, should we go after Darius instead, this would somehow inhibit stealing tech from him? If so, someone please explain to me how that works.

 

[Folket]

We are allowed to raze cities when our capital is to small.

Since we have already spent 170 EP on Saladin, do we plan to leave him a city so we will have use of those? Let us get Alpha now and maybe we can steal our way to monarchy.

If you look at sea you will see that there is coast two tiles out so it will bew easy to get trade routes around a city we give away.

Sorry for being so silent for a month or two. I just got stuck playing other games.

 

[Ronnie1]

Comments in blue.

Ronnie, why do you have archers moving toward Antium? Are they needed to defend the city? If so, from whom? What can you tell me about recent barb activity?
No significant barb activity in the second half of the set. Was going to move 1 Archer towards the jungle city just in case, but I moved the wrong one, the non promoted one, so there are 2 on the same tile.

Is there a reason not to put a very high priority on getting a settler out of the capital (for Iron City), then getting the needed units and pop there ASAP, as settler moves toward Iron City site? Propose to use worker1's chop to speed this.I think there might be some hammers invested in a settler. The forest 2SE of Caput (worker there) is pre-chopped for a settler build.

I switched EP to Darius because we can get some cheap early techs from Gift city.

 

[Htadus]

Follow that.

Is it true that, should we go after Darius instead, this would somehow inhibit stealing tech from him? If so, someone please explain to me how that works.

No it is not true but the spy's can get caught easily once we loose OB with Darius. As long as the AI is alive we can steal from them. So with a little planning, no espy points are wasted.

That new city will block the coastal route only after expanding the culture. But by then we should Medina and Mecca whipped to 1 pop and perhaps have an alternate coastal route via Persia.

The reason why I am pushing the forest city is that we need to secure it first just incase that new settler in Mecca is heading that way.

The reason to delay Alpha is that we do not want to divert crucial hammers to build spy's if we are going to war now. Those espy points are not going anywhere. There is absolutely no down side to learning Math asap.

BTW, for a moment I did think about gifting Antium to Hannibal and dismissed it as crazy but now I think it is a good idea. The reason for giving it to Hannibal is that will slow his science down instead of strengthening Darrius production base. I think this will significantly speed up the war plan.

I like the idea of whipping a Worker in the capital after founding the next 2 cities.

Yes the reason to by pass the lesser cities is to avoid loosing units before getting our targets. If we have cats it is even better but we wont have time at least not for the first war.

And finally, as long as we raze the city, we are not accepting an additional city, so it is acceptable to raze as many cities.

@Folket, I was wondering why those tiles had 2 commerce. So BSP gave us two tile coast in that area. Good catch.

One more reason the go after Sal is that the way his land is set up, it will likely prevent the AI from resettling the area. I would really like to see how the rest of the map is laid out.

Please stick with Sal for espy points. We need to watch his tech path. I hope he go after Divine rights.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We are allowed to raze cities when our capital is to small. Good to hear from you, Folket, and appreciate the confirmation.

Since we have already spent 170 EP on Saladin, do we plan to leave him a city so we will have use of those? Let us get Alpha now and maybe we can steal our way to monarchy. Alpha and spy points are certainly areas of disagreement. Htadus is arguing that we should delay Alpha until after Math because, while at war, we need to use all citizens to build units. Frankly, I'm not sure where the spy points ought to go. Like to get more feedback on this.

If you look at sea you will see that there is coast two tiles out so it will bew easy to get trade routes around a city we give away. Sometimes what the map shows is not how the game plays. In Vanilla, I've very occasionally seen tiles showing more commerce than they actually produce in the game. Any way to check this?Perhaps appropriate for BSP to tell us whether this is a map-construction illusion or not.

Sorry for being so silent for a month or two. I just got stuck playing other games.

Well, hope you can stick with this thread for a while now.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the quick response, Ronnie. Helpful to know about lack of barb activity. I had already picked up on settler hammers and pre-chop, and going to take advantage by using both to build settler immediately.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No it is not true but the spy's can get caught easily once we loose OB with Darius. As long as the AI is alive we can steal from them. So with a little planning, no espy points are wasted. So, Darius is still a possible target for war. No response from you, Htadus, regarding difficulty of taking the highly cultured hill city of Mecca.

The reason why I am pushing the forest city is that we need to secure it first just incase that new settler in Mecca is heading that way. Not sure I've ever seen the AI settle a site without a food resource so early, but appreciate that heads up.

The reason to delay Alpha is that we do not want to divert crucial hammers to build spy's if we are going to war now. Those espy points are not going anywhere. There is absolutely no down side to learning Math asap. Understand the argument and inclined to agree.

BTW, for a moment I did think about gifting Antium to Hannibal and dismissed it as crazy but now I think it is a good idea. The reason for giving it to Hannibal is that will slow his science down instead of strengthening Darrius production base. I think this will significantly speed up the war plan. Hadn't checked to see if Hannibal would take it. Have you?

I like the idea of whipping a Worker in the capital after founding the next 2 cities. OK

One more reason the go after Sal is that the way his land is set up, it will likely prevent the AI from resettling the area. Please explain this -- resettling where?. I would really like to see how the rest of the map is laid out. Indeed.

Please stick with Sal for espy points. We need to watch his tech path. I hope he go after Divine rights.

But, what about accumulating points to steal tech from Darius? That's why we gifted him a city.

 

[Htadus]

But, what about accumulating points to steal tech from Darius? That's why we gifted him a city.

How long before we have enough espy to steal a tech from him. The original idea was to use a GSpy to get the espy to do tech stealing. We can steal a few techs from Sal right now.

Once we take the capital cities of these AI, they become normal Monarch AI. That is the reason to go after the heart of the empire. There will be no 5 food farmlands or other benefits. BTW, I hope Sal will also build the Jewish shrine too.

Hannibal only have 3 cities, so yes he will accept a city.

As for losses, yes we could loose upto 8 units taking a city defended by 4 units in Mecca unless we have cats.

BTS AI do not like to settle behind another culture. Since we will want to raze most of the cities we capture, other AI may resettle them. The ideal way to play this is as an always war game and go after their capital cities and the Ai will start slowing down quite rapidly. So that is an option to send a 3 unit forward team to each of the AI and start causing full on trouble.

 

[Cactus Pete]

How long before we have enough espy to steal a tech from him. The original idea was to use a GSpy to get the espy to do tech stealing. We can steal a few techs from Sal right now. Makes sense.

Hannibal only have 3 cities, so yes he will accept a city. Then I'm for gifting Antium to him, but would like to have input from others before doing so.

As for losses, yes we could loose upto 8 units taking a city defended by 4 units in Mecca unless we have cats. Agree, and counting the four survivors that defeat the defenders and take the city, this means we'd want to have 12 Praets to march on Mecca.

BTS AI do not like to settle behind another culture. Since we will want to raze most of the cities we capture, other AI may resettle them. Still not clear where you mean with respect to Sal's cities when you speak of the AI resettling. The ideal way to play this is as an always war game and go after their capital cities and the Ai will start slowing down quite rapidly. So that is an option to send a 3 unit forward team to each of the AI and start causing full on trouble.

Understand the concept, but we are a long way from having the needed units and may not have anytime soon, given our necessarily limited production base.

Did a little testing and now more inclined toward Forest City next, but not yet convinced Sal should be he first target. Going to try to figure out best way to scout NW of Antium to find Darius' capital.

 

[Htadus]

Understand the concept, but we are a long way from having the needed units and may not have anytime soon, given our necessarily limited production base. I agree nothing is set in stone.

Did a little testing and now more inclined toward Forest City next, but not yet convinced Sal should be he first target. Going to try to figure out best way to scout NW of Antium to find Darius' capital.

Again, Sal being our war target is also written in water. If he has LB's then we go after anyone else. If he will have LB's by the time we get to Mecca, then we skip him.

I have been thinking about this scenario and realized that after a certain point of this game, AI will start falling behind. They are still Monarch AI. Their capitals and the areas nearby is likely boosted but all farther lands are not going to be that lucrative. So this is very winnable once the tech costs become higher and we start taking away good cities. Does this make sense?

 

[Cactus Pete]

No doubt it's winnable against the AI. Against other teams, not so confident.

"Still not clear where you mean with respect to Sal's cities when you speak of the AI resettling." Wish you'd try to explain this again.

Could use some advice from team regarding Diplomacy. What/who do we need to acquiesce to?

BTW, testing shows we could research Construction after Math and Alpha and get it in time to pair cats with praets, which will be a good thing, because can't get start building an army until the ADs.

 

[Ronnie1]

I still like Alpha next so we can steal some of the cheap early techs. This should help our overall tech rate when we figure in bonuses for known techs.

Make the trade for the happy resource for sure.

Diplomacy overall depends on our initial war target imo. If we choose Sal, then the Buddhist block would be natural allies in the short run. Brennus is already planning an attack, I don't think we are the target, but we could be.

Gifting Antium is a solid idea I think, but we need to be prepared to defend it just in case barbs do show up there.

I am not convinced forest city should be next, but not sure and I don't think it is critical either way.

 

[Folket]

Well, hope you can stick with this thread for a while now.

I think the problem is that I do to many things during the week and then I just want to relax and do stuff that require no real energy investment during the weekend.

I will try to keep posting regularly to keep the step for entering down.

 

[leif erikson]

Seems the most viable plan at this point is to chop out an army to go after Sal?

If so, don't we need Math for 30 hammer forest chops and to get the borders for the forest city expanded in order to maximize hammer value of chops? So it seems forest city should be next in order to accomplish that, followed by Iron City?

 

[Cactus Pete]

I still like Alpha next so we can steal some of the cheap early techs. This should help our overall tech rate when we figure in bonuses for known techs. Testing shows utility of early chopping with Math and pressing need for other units before building a spy, so going with Math first, then Alpha.

Make the trade for the happy resource for sure. Will do, and may be able to trade the cow for sugar later.

Diplomacy overall depends on our initial war target imo. If we choose Sal, then the Buddhist block would be natural allies in the short run. Brennus is already planning an attack, I don't think we are the target, but we could be. That's insightful. What about what demands to watch out for before we chose a war target?

Gifting Antium is a solid idea I think, but we need to be prepared to defend it just in case barbs do show up there. Well, if we gift it now, what would be the downside of barbs taking the city from Hannibal?

Also, what barb activity has there been coming up from the southern peninsula (where we will be sending a settler)? Would like to move the warrior onto the deer, if it's safe.

I am not convinced forest city should be next, but not sure and I don't think it is critical either way.

Concur, that it's probably not critical, but leaning that way.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sure would like to get some more feedback before playing, but game needs to be moved along.

Here is a save of test game played until 1AD using proposed plan (as best as can be done with the test save), if anyone is interested: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=401126&stc=1&d=1448304555

(I did have 8 citizens and 8 archers in capital when 4th city founded -- actually fifth city in this test, as couldn't gift Antium, which plan to do immediately in real game).

My understanding is that before founding, and immediately after founding, a new city, I need to post a save. Correct? Anything else needed by administrators?

Playing in about 6-8 hours, unless get caution lights here before that.

 

[Ronnie1]

How many beakers do we currently have invested in Alpha? Better question is how long to complete each from right now?

I generally deny all stop trading demands. The benefit never seems to outweigh the cost. The interesting request now would be to join a war imo. I don't think in the immediate future it would be wise. I believe we are weak relative to all the AI at this point.

Well, if we gift it now, what would be the downside of barbs taking the city from Hannibal?

This an interesting question. The barbs might provide us workers in the future. Sal or Darius could take it from the barbs, not sure we want that happening. It won't slow Hanni's tech rate if he doesn't own it.

Also, what barb activity has there been coming up from the southern peninsula (where we will be sending a settler)? Would like to move the warrior onto the deer, if it's safe.

There were 2 barb warriors. The logs say one of them died on T92, so at least one left.

Reviewing the logs, says 17 turns to Alpha, I agree we need Math sooner than that, so Math > Alpha > Construction? Or do we still want to go Aesthetics > Literature after Math?

My understanding is that before founding, and immediately after founding, a new city, I need to post a save. Correct? Anything else needed by administrators?

I clearly did not understand that. I posted a screen shot of the city with the size while hovering over the city showing the individual units. The settler was selected and is the active unit. If we need to do something else, I need clarification before I play again please.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I generally deny all stop trading demands. The benefit never seems to outweigh the cost. The interesting request now would be to join a war imo. I don't think in the immediate future it would be wise. I believe we are weak relative to all the AI at this point. Will follow that advice, unless someone disagrees.


This an interesting question. The barbs might provide us workers in the future. Sal or Darius could take it from the barbs, not sure we want that happening. It won't slow Hanni's tech rate if he doesn't own it. Good point about the tech rate, but not sure we want to use an archer or two to defend it, at least not before we've added the two cities. When a praet becomes available, might send him there temporarily.

There were 2 barb warriors. The logs say one of them died on T92, so at least one left. That's helpful. My understanding is that, once Iron City is founded, any barbs still on the peninsula are isolated and in effect rendered impotent by the GW, unless we attack them (perhaps to gain experience). Right?

Reviewing the logs, says 17 turns to Alpha, I agree we need Math sooner than that, so Math > Alpha > Construction? Or do we still want to go Aesthetics > Literature after Math? Thinking Construction then Aesthetics is best, unless war is going to be postponed.

I clearly did not understand that. I posted a screen shot of the city with the size while hovering over the city showing the individual units. The settler was selected and is the active unit. If we need to do something else, I need clarification before I play again please.

I am not comfortable with screen shots, so would like confirmation that my approach is acceptable.

 

[leif erikson]

I am not comfortable with screen shots, so would like confirmation that my approach is acceptable.

A save before and a save after is acceptable. From the pre-game thread:

That's it. I actually don't care how we do it, whatever you like. Either screens or saves works best.

 

[Htadus]

I just got in and am too tired to give any good input. Good luck CP.