SGOTM 22 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

So, am I happy to risk ALL by delaying GW by 4 turns and get ourselves into a potentially winning position: YES
Comparing the 3 runs there is no comparison which is best...... assuming we get GW of course

SGOTM is all about taking calculated risks to give yourself an advantage. This seems like a situation that requires us to risk. I agree and think you should proceed.

In the limited testing I have done, I only know that when those barbs start coming, many tile improvements (without Great Wall) will be pillaged. Let's hope we get Great Wall or be prepared to build endless Archers to protect everything.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I do not mind taking a little risk in getting the GW. I have no problem with the techs through Wheel after that we need to give some thought to what is our goal after getting the GW. I think our third city should be Saladin's holy city.

 

[neilmeister]

I agree that the main task is GW, that is where I propose to stop for further discussion.

Do we want to go for BW after city 2?
Do we want to conquer a neighbor (sorry Saladin, this means you)?

 

[Htadus]

I just have question or two?
How many improved tiles are we going to use anyways?
We can improve 1 hill and a pig. How often are you using your pig? The two improvements will deny us of 3F1H1C.
How many FHC does an earlier second city give us?

 

[Htadus]

I agree that the main task is GW, that is where I propose to stop for further discussion. I know there are risks we take in these games. But securing a build that will potentially save us a lot of food, hammers and commerce in the future by loosing some now is a wining move. I am referring to losses due to barb action.

Do we want to go for BW after city 2?No. We should build 2warriors/chariots if available as well as a building and settle our 3rd city too. But that discussion can wait.
Do we want to conquer a neighbor (sorry Saladin, this means you)?

He can be a problem with his protective archers even with HA's. I rather have cats for him. Lets hope to find another victim and use Sal to steal techs.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry, I have been out of town and unable to participate. Leaving again very early tomorrow, so won't be contributing for at least another 48 hours. Good planning and discussion. Please proceed without me.

 

[neilmeister]

I just have question or two?
How many improved tiles are we going to use anyways?
We can improve 1 hill and a pig. How often are you using your pig? The two improvements will deny us of 3F1H1C.
How many FHC does an earlier second city give us?

Good questions, it is very good to make me defend the rationale I have used, as it leads to me uncovering my mistakes or incorrect assumptions.

How many improved tiles are we going to use?
Not an easy question to answer, it depends I guess, but what the saves do illustrate is what a worker could do in the time. We don't know what we will find outside our immediate BFC other than the direction we started in. In my test the worker has built 1 Pasture, 1 mine, 1 farm, 1 cottage & 5 roads.

We can improve 1 hill and a pig. How often are you using your pig?
Every turn except for 4 when we starve Caput Mundi to get GW 1 turn earlier. 6F1C is a super tile! Even with Imperialist trait, it is the best tile we have to help build settlers or workers.

The two improvements will deny us of 3F1H1C. per turn!

How many FHC does an earlier second city give us?
Comparing the 2 fastest city scenarios:
If we go WB->GW->Settler we do get a settler 3 turns earlier (the city itself gets 2C, but 2 maintenance, Caput Mundi gets extra 1 commerce, but extra 1 maintenance, so net sum is nothing) but the city must fend for itself with no worker. The first worker we get doesn't come for another 3t after the city, and assuming it Pastures and Mines Caput Mundi first, it won't get to city 2 until 12-13 turns after city is settled (in other words city 2 would advised to build its own worker).
If we go WB->Worker->GW->Settler the worker is farming a tile for city 2 the turn it is founded, with Caput Mundi arguably already over-improved.


.... Tests until city 3 (assuming we build it before BW)
I have attached a few more saves from each strategy, this time making the save once we have 3 cities. In all 3 scenarios I have built Archers as they will be useful after we get BW. I think the results speak for themselves. (though I admit I messed up in the WB-GW-Settler-Worker test, I should have built a worker instead of a warrior for city 2, but it wouldn't be finished anyway)

 

[Jersey Joe]

Neil, your tests do show that WB->worker give us a better infrastructure than WB->GW.
However, we need a third building before the third city is settled, but I do not think that invalidates your tests.

On my tests, after roading the pig and the mine, I roaded the tiles from the mine onto the forested hill where you built rome. I used warriors to fog bust and had them back in Caput before settling.

 

[Ronnie1]

Also been out of town for work.

Catching up quickly I think.

Going to play a quick test for feel.

 

[neilmeister]

Neil, your tests do show that WB->worker give us a better infrastructure than WB->GW.
However, we need a third building before the third city is settled, but I do not think that invalidates your tests.

Bugger, forgot about that requirement, I made sure I was at 6 pop and had 6 units each time!

On my tests, after roading the pig and the mine, I roaded the tiles from the mine onto the forested hill where you built rome. I used warriors to fog bust and had them back in Caput before settling.

Sounds sensible.... I admit that my tests were focussed on the micro of the capital, not what the worker did after the essential infra was up.

 

[Ronnie1]

My initial test I go WB > Worker > GW, and lose the GW in 2080.

Based on one test, I would not risk losing the GW.

Even the barb animals came en masse!

 

[Htadus]

@neilmeister

I am in full agreement with you about the pig tile being one of our best tiles, and on most games, I would consider this poor play. Somehow it feels right with this game after the tests.

Remember, if you snatch a worker, this whole discussion is moot.

 

[Ronnie1]

Htadus makes a great point about the worker steal!

We know we are going to be warring somewhat early on a Pangea anyway. Stealing a worker straight away and starting on the GW seems like a reasonable way to achieve both goals.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I changed the location we are settled at to x=24, y=12. Saladin is settled to the south of us in the antarctic. I started with a new map, so things are a little different. I built the GW and met 2 AI's besides Saladin.

 

[neilmeister]

I will do my best to steal a worker.... we have 4 warriors!

I am in the airport tonight on the way to NZ (last minute business trip only organised today), will return to play out the set in 36 hours

 

[Cactus Pete]

Stealing a worker would certainly be helpful, but seems highly problematic. We risk a warrior to bears or an Arab archer (worth it, if we get the worker), and then the worker has to get back home through the animal-infested forests. Perhaps it merits a cautious effort, but planning shouldn't put much weight on accomplishing this soon. Now, if we can build chariots, then it becomes a priority.

Any thoughts on the likelihood that BSP gave the AI improved tiles with extra hammers just to keep us from building the GW first? That possibility argues for worker first, else we're left in a weak position.

 

[Ronnie1]

Welcome back cp!

I would bet on at least 2 Industrious AI, 1 with stone and the other with marble in their bfc. If you wanted to make wonder grabbing difficult as a game designer, restrict those 2 AI's expansion options and I bet they go wonder hunting early and often.

Worker before GW is the best scenario imo.

If we lose the GW, what is our fall back plan for dealing with barbs?

 

[Htadus]

@CP, one of the AI has 4hpt production on T1.

@Ronnie1, I think we should have BW down to 1 turn and whip away, preferably archers.

 

[Ronnie1]

The demo screen says 3hpt is best, so hopefully no settled on stone or marble plains hill and they are working .

I have changed my mind on build and tech path. I want to go Masonry 1st and use the GW to grow to size 2 and then build worker at size 2. I remember reading somewhere that the AI is less likely to start a wonder if you put a few hammers into it! This gets us a worker by T26 and the GW eot T46/2120bc.

That seems like a reasonable date I think. The fastest I get the GW straight away eot 43, only saving 3 turns and giving up the pigs and mine for that long just doesn't make sense imo.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I remember reading somewhere that the AI is less likely to start a wonder if you put a few hammers into it! " Can anyone confirm this? If true, then we should put a few hammers in ASAP and get back to it.