SGOTM 22 - Xteam

[neilmeister]

Nice testing Joe, we should probably all test towards the turn we build the first settler, as until we explore a little bit around our capital we won't be able to decide where to settle. We will also have to decide at that point if we go for a third city before BW.

Sounds like you saw a significant amount of barbs.

 

[leif erikson]

Just tried a test game to get the feel of it. Scared the heck out of me as Germany completed The Great Wall 6-turns before I did.

The second time around I got it in 2120 BC.

Guess we shouldn't mess around with it, go directly for it.

Given what I can see, I like the Ivory tile to the NE for a second city. Both happiness and War Elephants.

edit - given this:

Your Capital has at least twice the number of military units defending it as your city count (including the new one). Once you discover Bronze Working or Iron Working, warriors and scouts won't count towards this any more.

We will have to build at least one additional military unit to accompany the settler, no? Archer!

 

[neilmeister]

that depends on how far we settler city 2.... but it is definitely something to consider

 

[Jersey Joe]

I did another test. Went AH->masonry->wheel->pottery->archery->sailing
built workboat to finish then worker->GW->settler-Warrior-Archer
lost 1 warrior exploring the east to a bear and 1 warrior defending our capital before GW
built settler sent out unescourted along road I had built and built the 4th warrior before settling
settled second city in 1520 bc.
I should have finished at least 1-2 turns quicker. When worker was built I ignored the fact I was working the fish for 5 food and built a pasture before mining the hill. I should have mined hill then built pasture. Pigs + Fish only help when building settler, otherwise want to work all hills on only pigs or fish

 

[leif erikson]

Did you have time to build both a Work Boat and a Worker before Masonry was finished? Not sure it is a good idea to delay Great Wall for any turns...

Especially since I lost it first try.

 

[Jersey Joe]

If no one objects, I am going to remake the test game map. It appears the ivory we found is at the top edge of the world.
So I am going to make a map like that and have all our opponents below us.

 

[leif erikson]

That would be fine.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Did you have time to build both a Work Boat and a Worker before Masonry was finished? Not sure it is a good idea to delay Great Wall for any turns...

Especially since I lost it first try.

I did finish both the worker a work boat before starting on the GW and the time before that I build a warrior and worker before starting on the GW. Both times I finished the GW at about the same time we got our second border expansion.

I do not think it is to big a risk to send out the settlers without an escort. Both times because the worker has little to do, I roaded the way to where I was going to settle before the GW was done so the settler was only outside our borders for 1 turn.

 

[Ronnie1]

Now that we have founded the capitol, we can see from the detailed F1 screen exactly where it is located if you want to make the test game as close as possible.

@ neilmeister, what are the coordinates of Caput Mundi?

 

[Jersey Joe]

I used the existing test file:
I did not do much exploring so I had more barbarians to deal with.

I wanted to see which way built the GW quicker. Worker first or workboat first then worker. I did 2 tests with Worker first and 2 tests with workboat first.

Also when I started with worker first I also started researching Masonry before AH. This was so when worker finished I could immediately start GW and not wait 4 turns for masonry to finish.

Good and bad results.
Test 1: Workboat first - Germany builds the GW in 2200BC I have 4 turns to ago.
I decide to do a little MM, when I have around 10 turns left in GW build, and starve the population by working a extra forested hill instead of a food resource.
Test 2: Worker first - Germany builds the GW in 2080BC I have 2 turns to ago.
Test 3: Worker first - Germany builds the GW in 2200BC I have 5 turns to ago.
Test 4: Workboat first - I build the GW in 2120.

It appears Workboat first is faster.

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry for the silence, was busy last night. I will put up some test results & saves as well, along with the coordinates

 

[leif erikson]

It appears Workboat first is faster.

That actually makes sense because population grows when you are building a Work Boat, it does not when you build a Worker. Faster population grows, sooner we can use use hammer tiles.

 

[Jersey Joe]

That actually makes sense because population grows when you are building a Work Boat, it does not when you build a Worker. Faster population grows, sooner we can use use hammer tiles.

Not much since the fastest way to build the workboat is to always work tiles with hammers. So I am working the hill till borders expand then forest till workboat is built and I am still at population 1. Then no growth till worker is done. But 2 turns after the worker is finished I grow to pop 2. I did a couple more tests trying slightly different MM's to see if I could reduce the GW build time (I could not). I did notice that in the test game every time I was able to build the GW Germany had built Stonehenge instead of the GW and when Germany build the GW they did not have Stonehenge.

 

[neilmeister]

I have tried a few variants as well:
All decent tests used AH>Masonry>Wheel>Agr>Pottery>Writing (but only the first 3 matter for the test, the rest are really only so we have a basis for comparison)

1) WB>worker>GW
WB first, maxing food until pop 2 then switch to 2 grass hills. When WB finished start worker (GH & pigs for 1t, then fish & pigs). When worker out start Great Wall (fish & GH) until pigs are finished. Max hammers at pop 5, starve with a few turns left.
Start settler at 2120BC so same as Joe.
63 beakers in Writing
5 food in storage
23 hammers into Settler

2) Worker>part WB>GW
Max food, switch to GW as soon as we learn Masonry, max hammers
Start WB again in 2080

3) Best outcome I had
WB first, maxing food until pop 2 then switch to 2 grass hills. When WB finished start worker. When worker out start Great Wall (max food) until pigs are finished. Max hammers at pop 5, starve with a few turns left.
71 beakers in Writing
6 food in storage
21 hammers into Settler

 

[Jersey Joe]

Neil glad to see you duplicated my results. I think you got better results than me based on the food in storage and overflow you had at the end.

I agree with you, the last 3 tech do not matter much for the tests, but I think archery should replace Agr. The reason is a few times in the test I have lost a warrior defending either the mine or the pigs. If we know archery, the overflow can go into an archer who becomes a 1 turn build and if we work 5 hills overflow 8 hammers into the settler.

To build city 3 we need a third building.
Techs for buildings
Mysticism -- Monument for 30H
Sailing -- Lighthouse for 60H
Pottery -- Granary for 60H
Writing -- Library for 90H
Meditation -- Monastery -- needs a religion
Priesthood -- Temple -- needs a religion

 

[neilmeister]

An archer may become essential to settling city 2, but hopefully not.

We can potentially substitute Archery for Writing if we lose a warrior or just if there are lots of barb warriors around. Don't forget we can build the settler first and either switch to a unit part way through building it OR while the settler is moving build any military units required to be allowed to settle.

Agriculture & Pottery give us options for a building but more importantly give our worker something to do. With no tech trading we must get everything ourselves and these form the basics. All of this may change if we discover 2 horses in our BFC!

So, I think I still prefer AH>Masonry>Wheel>Agr>Pottery for now, but as always things can change quickly, only the first 3 are locked in for now.
After that we may wish to go direct to BW.

edit: City coordinates are x = 12, y = 24

 

[Jersey Joe]

I did 3 more tests and could not finish sooner than 2120BC.

Also, I made a mistake about the archer being a 1 turn build. I forgot that JC gives a 50% bonus to build settlers. Archer + Settler should take 8 turns. Depending on the actual overflow Warrior + Settler could be 6 turns.

JC also lets us build a lighthouse double speed so it is effectively 30H not 60H to build.

I agree with leif, a city the includes the elephant looks like the best spot for our second city.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Tested using the following research path:
Agr->Masonry->AH->Wheel->Pottery_Writing
When worker finished AH had 3 turns to go so mined hill then built pasture.
Built GW in 2120BC was size 5 with zero (0) food; 19 hammers going into settler and 108 beakers in writing.

Neil, thanks for the city coordinates and thank you Ronnie for suggesting it.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Here is a new test game with the capital settled at its actual location (x=12,y=24).
You can change what is have queued and the no tech to study has been picked.
Also, I put Saladin close to were he should be settled. I changed the 5 unknown opponents just to add variety. Also, I regenerated the unexplored map.

 

[neilmeister]

Really great pickup Joe! It isn't intuitive!

I admit that I cannot repeat the test, I have the exact same hammers and food but I have only 93 beakers into Writing. I used the new save.

I did this by:
Agr->Masonry->AH->Wheel->Pottery_Writing

WB first, maxing food until pop 2 then switch to 2 grass hills. When WB finished start worker. When worker out start Great Wall.

Worker mines first, then pastures. Work mine as soon as finished, Pigs when they are finished, working the Pigs instead of fish at pop 5.

I have only met 1 AI, did you meet someone else in your testing that would have affected the tech rate?