SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

WastinTime · Jun 10, 2016

yea, continue to pillage. If you know Hatty is working on a settler then it shouldn't hurt to even go another turn before CF so we can pillage more.

Mitchum has a very good point about how the Math spy mission succeeding was way more important than losing a couple HAs.

Remeber last game, it wasn't even that we failed the spy missions, multiple spies were 'caught' doing nothing with a pleased civ we had OB with.
That was fun to plan: sabotaging a monument, etc. :cool:

What could be better? its the opposite of building a monument.

Pollina · Jun 11, 2016

We can't be sure that Hatty won't switch out of building the settler, so I would rather CF this turn (after double pillaging the hamlet). I don't want to delay our Thebes attack any more than necessary. We really need the Rep

in Paris.

Do we have any plans for giving away Fredburg in the near future, or should our newest slave chop out a granary there?

Alex seems to be building a lighthouse or galley. Not much else he could build I think.

Do we need to make any plans for building a settler for the canal city north of Athens?

WastinTime · Jun 11, 2016

seems like without religion/culture we wouldn't want to steal from Fredburg. And if it has culture, then the granary would survive a gift, recapture. So build a granary ASAP.

Let Alex build canal city. We don't need it to attack Alex, Thebes, or Fred.
Our galleys can go towards Istanbul after Alex/Thebes. Pick up the Fred army S of Berlin.
Unless we are certain that Alex won't settle that spot. It's 3 tiles from his capital.
Actually, if he did settle NE or NW of that, we could just build a fort.

Strangeness: Looks like there are roads going way SW out of Hatty's previous territory. The AI wouldn't road past the stone, would it? Were those roads pre-built t0 maybe?

pillage CF Hatty this turn: ok

ZPV · Jun 11, 2016

WastinTime said:
seems like without religion/culture we wouldn't want to steal from Fredburg. And if it has culture, then the granary would survive a gift, recapture. So build a granary ASAP.

Let Alex build canal city. We don't need it to attack Alex, Thebes, or Fred.
Our galleys can go towards Istanbul after Alex/Thebes. Pick up the Fred army S of Berlin.
Unless we are certain that Alex won't settle that spot. It's 3 tiles from his capital.
Actually, if he did settle NE or NW of that, we could just build a fort.

Strangeness: Looks like there are roads going way SW out of Hatty's previous territory. The AI wouldn't road past the stone, would it? Were those roads pre-built t0 maybe?

pillage CF Hatty this turn: ok

Fredburg Granary: I agree. Giving it away would be a new temporary home for Hatty because she didn't build a settler in time, but I think we have enough contingency in capture order that we won't need to do this.

Letting Alex settle the canal spot: I think it would be quicker/better to capture Athens and build a settler off the bat than to wait for him. Of course, there are better things to do than build a settler off the bat, but it's a useful comparison point.

Pollina · Jun 11, 2016

I'm not convinced that Alex will build a settler anytime soon. It's really strange that he doesn't seem to care for the canal spot. It's pretty fantastic. Especially with the pre-improved clams.

I should have time to play another turn or two in ~30 min.

Pollina · Jun 11, 2016

Playing...

Continued from this post

t74
- pillage Hatty's hamlet for 12+7 gold. Cease Fire.
- Freds spear and warrior are both on the same tile. HA (90%) dies attacking the spear. :mad:

HA and chariot win. Axe kills Fred's scout.
- Losing the HA means that we can no longer drop 6 HAs near Thebes on t78. (Probably too early anyway.)

t75
- Crap! (I mean CRAP!!!) We lost our trade connection with Darius and Gandhi ibt. No more silver and ivory. Lots of unhappy faces in our cities. I have to re-do all the micro. *sigh* I wonder what happened there. Our trade connection with Stalin is still intact. Darius is still trading with Mehmed.
- Hatty is working so many artists that she only put 4 hammers into the settler.
- Athens finished a workboat. It has 3 clams total (only one of them netted).
- Hatty has a worker roading the desert south west of Alexa. With the barb archer who killed our warrior right next to him.

Save uploaded

Spoiler :

WastinTime · Jun 11, 2016

Wow

another horse Archer lost. I guess that's the theme for this game. We will just have to keep whipping and chopping them

ZPV · Jun 12, 2016

Yikes!
None of us saw that coming.
The trade connection logic is that one of us must have a trade connection to the other's capital. Gandhi and Darius must not have explored enough coast, so the trades were relying on us having peaceful passage of Fred's coast. We'll get them back when we CF or capture Hamburg.

I'm starting to like a CEB gift+recapture to erase whip anger. I'm not sure whether or not we should build a Monument - since we've chopped most of the forests, replacing the Granary won't be easy if we lose it.

Pollina · Jun 12, 2016

I'm confused. How did lose our trade connection with Darius when
1. We have a trade connection with Stalin
2. Stalin is trading resources with Mehmed
3. Mehmed is trading resources with Darius?

Wouldn't those AI trades have been cancelled as well if a barb city broke the trade connection? Edit: Checking my t74 end of turn save, I see that we did indeed lose the connection when we declared on Fred. But why did the connection with Stalin not break then?

Anyway, I'm working on the new micro. This extra unhappiness is hurting us quite a bit. Almost makes me want to gift away Fredburg/CEB if necessary and capture Thebes asap. Almost.

Will 5HAs and 1 chariot be enough for Athens (t79 capture) or Thebes (t80)? Or should we rush a 6th HA in SQ? We could also do 5 HAs for t79 Athens or Thebes.

Hatty's WC has left Thebes. I wonder where it went. Do we need an archer in Alexa?

xpost

ZPV · Jun 12, 2016

5 HAs will be enough for either city. They have one tough defender each, at the moment, and no access to metal. I'm wondering if we can promote our chariot to sentry, so we can see whether Hamburg is still weakly defended first (to open up the trade routes). If it's got more than an axe and a warrior, I wouldn't bother though.

Stalin has explored enough tiles that he has a trade connection to Paris, and he is not at war with Fred so he can use his roads and coast.

Archer in Alexa? Ugh. I wish it weren't necessary. Can you get the one from Fur City down there?

Pollina · Jun 12, 2016

Can you get the one from Fur City down there?

Probably not in time for the CoL DoW (t78), unless we delay it.

I really dislike delaying the Thebes attack while we are waiting for Hatty's settler to finish and settle a city. We are losing all kinds of beakers, production, cottage turns, etc. and there is no guarantee that she won't switch to building something else when we re-declare on t78 (for the CoL steal), or not keep the settler in the city after he is finished. The more I think about it the more inclined I am to just take Thebes on t79 and give her CEB as a temporary sanctuary. Even better if she hasn't finished the settler until then. She would just whip him instead of another defender. (She will finish any build with 3 or less turns left while we are threatening her city, and her switch into Slavery (2 cities+war) would make the settler a 1-3 turns build.) Kill her off t83 or t84.

This would also give us the option to farm our GP for the GA there instead of in Alexa.

WastinTime · Jun 12, 2016

I think we need to get Hamburg to reopen resource trades ASAP. Ivory and Silver lost and Alex is too lame to connect gems. What if silver is traded to someone else

I suppose if that city is too tough, the only other option is to get Thebes/REP for happiness.

Pollina · Jun 12, 2016

Should I go ahead and peek into Hamburg with a sentry chariot?

Problem is, what if we go for Hamburg and there is no more silver and ivory available by the time we get it?

How long will it take until Fred is willing to talk given our 3 losses?

ZPV · Jun 12, 2016

Pollina said:
Should I go ahead and peek into Hamburg with a sentry chariot?

Problem is, what if we go for Hamburg and there is no more silver and ivory available by the time we get it?

How long will it take until Fred is willing to talk given our 3 losses?

Fred's war success = 3+3+4 = 10
Our war success = 4*4 (4 units killed) + 1 (worker capture) + 10 (city capture) = 27

6 base turns * (20 + 80*(10+1)*2/(27+1))/100

It should be 4 turns before he talks.
You need to have absolutely no losses, to get the very short wars.

WastinTime · Jun 12, 2016

I can't imagine there is anything in Hamburg that can scare our HAs, but if you'd rather peek I expect we will find a use for the sentry. We only give up 10% combat.

Pollina · Jun 12, 2016

Thing is, we kinda have to commit this turn. If we are going for Hamburg with all our HAs, then we are not going for Thebes/Athens before ~t83.

Earliest we can take Hamburg is t77 or t78. ZPV's calculations show that we could CF on t78 to get our trade connections back, at least temporarily. Taking Hamburg is certainly a lot riskier than taking Thebes for the extra happiness.

I suppose there's a chance that we can attack Hamburg t78, give the city to Hatty, then DoW her and take Thebes t79. I need to look into this and see how many attackers we can get there.

WastinTime · Jun 12, 2016

But even if we CF Fred, don't we still have broken trades because no OB?

And if we give Hamburg to Hatty, won't that just kill our trades again?

WastinTime · Jun 12, 2016

We have a healthy Axe that can see into Hamburg right now. You weren't going to use that for Thebes anyway, right? might as well move him NE-E

Pollina · Jun 12, 2016

We don't need OB for a trade connection (resource trades). Stalin has no OB with Fred and we still have a trade connection with him.

Hamburg should be in revolt for 3 or 4 turns, so we'd have some time before we needed to CF Hatty. After that, we could still take it back on DoW+0, if we stay at war with Fred (or re-DoW). Would we be able to immediately get our resource trades back?

We have a healthy Axe that can see into Hamburg right now. You weren't going to use that for Thebes anyway, right? might as well move him NE-E

Right. I can do that. No sentry chariot then.

WastinTime · Jun 12, 2016

We have 2 Axes that won't really have anything to do except take Hamburg. I think we should get it while we're there. It will have a sheep tile to work (pillage the one in Fred's culture).

Gambling on the granary loss in CEB is not acceptable in my view. That is a much larger setback than just the 60h. I'd rather go with disposable monument. We'd could whip the city at least once. It's probably better to only whip once and recapture size 2 (deer, Cows). Sure, it'd be great to get that one extra 10t whip anger erased, but we're better off working those 2 super-tiles and Paris isn't going to need the Deer.
so that means:
T75 monument
T76 chariot or axe (probably Axe?)
T77 whip
T78 or later: gift.

SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

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