Haven't done the calculations before, but I think we want am idea of how much EP it will be worth getting on Hatty. The techs we want for sure are machinery and Engineering, but I don't know if we need CoL. By the time we get civil service we could have got some more techs, so i don't know if Bureaucracy can make up for the delay.
SGOTM 23 - Unallocated
- Thread starter AlanH
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I suggest we steal any technologies we need that the AI will not trade once we have the spies and a gift city set up. At maximum espionage discounts, it will cost us 1/4 to 1/5 the espionage than a tech size in beakers (this assumes -50% city culture and near -50% Espionage Point Spending discount; without a great spy and infiltration, our ESP will be low or even negative). You will see in the espionage window the base cost of the smallest tech that can be stolen. I believe it is 1.5 x beaker size of the tech in base espionage points needed. This should give a rough idea of how many espionage points will be needed to steal Machinery and Engineering from Hatshepsut.
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Code of Laws would be nice for running Caste System and Philosophy would be nice for Pacifism. But its usefulness depends on how soon we can get it and generate the GS we need to bulb either Printing Press and/or Chemistry.
Not sure how useful Bureaucracy will be, even though Paris is becoming a Bureaucratic capital. It will be weaker hammer-wise with one of the Wines converted to a Winery. The more cities we capture, the less important Bureaucracy becomes. We are more likely to run either Vassalage or Nationhood rather than Bureaucracy. We more or less gave up on Oxford University for the same reasons and because we did not plan for building Oxford University via stacked hammer overflow.
Not sure how useful Bureaucracy will be, even though Paris is becoming a Bureaucratic capital. It will be weaker hammer-wise with one of the Wines converted to a Winery. The more cities we capture, the less important Bureaucracy becomes. We are more likely to run either Vassalage or Nationhood rather than Bureaucracy. We more or less gave up on Oxford University for the same reasons and because we did not plan for building Oxford University via stacked hammer overflow.
So the base cost is 960 EP. The cheapest tech she has is Aesthetics at 448 Beakers. I'm assuming that the espionage screen adds the distance penalty?
I'm not sure if I can get our spy to NW city fast enough. I think I'll whip a second one to park as soon as we settle it and gift.
In the mean time, it looks like we can safely run the slider for a while without fear of wasting it, but I want to do some math to make sure it doesn't make more sense to just research ourselves with science slider.
I'm not sure if I can get our spy to NW city fast enough. I think I'll whip a second one to park as soon as we settle it and gift.
In the mean time, it looks like we can safely run the slider for a while without fear of wasting it, but I want to do some math to make sure it doesn't make more sense to just research ourselves with science slider.
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Yes, all espionage discounts are applied to each enemy city as appropriate in the espionage window.
I don't know the distance formula. I do know that at a distance of 3 plots or 3,1 plots is +2% espionage discount (penalty) and 3,2 & 3,3 (3 diagonal) is +3% espionage discount (penalty).
I don't know the distance formula. I do know that at a distance of 3 plots or 3,1 plots is +2% espionage discount (penalty) and 3,2 & 3,3 (3 diagonal) is +3% espionage discount (penalty).
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I suggest just using WB to determine the distance formula yourself.
Gift cities three plots from the capital are ideal for tech steals or any mission that has global effect on the enemy (like switching civics or religion, etc.). Thus, I've never bothered to determine the distance formula beyond what I stated in the previous post.
Gift cities three plots from the capital are ideal for tech steals or any mission that has global effect on the enemy (like switching civics or religion, etc.). Thus, I've never bothered to determine the distance formula beyond what I stated in the previous post.
Looks like it's a 14% penalty for being 4.5 or 4 squares away. We will also lose the trade route bonus when we declare war.
Taking Machinery as an example at 1046 beakers, it takes 715.464 EP with just 5 turns and trade route.
We make 160 BPT, so that's 7 turns of commerce. We can get 132 EPT so that's 6 turns of commerce. I guess it becomes a no brainer then to try to steal these techs, as long as we don't get stalled by the 5 turns wait.
Turn 1: Cold Whip Spy in Orleans, start road on tile 1SE from NW City. Start Settler in Copper City.
Turn 2: Whip Settler in Copper City, Spy starts moving to NW
Turn 3: Spy arrives at NW, City founded on NW City.
Turn 8: Steal Machinery.
I'll finish the university in Paris, Forge in fish city, and everyone else pumping out Muskets, with Munich finishing the Barracks this turn. We'll want forges everywhere else, so I'll try to shift gear when I think we have Hatty in the bag.
Scientist specialists will be creating passive beakers. Don't want to stop working them as we still need the GS. I'm thinking Divine Right would be the best place for the beakers, since we're planning on stealing Machinery and Engineering. That would get us one more tech discount on Nationalism which we might eventually want to get for Taj Mahal and Nationhood.
Do we want Copper City to be working an engineer? We currently have Hanging Gardens, so it increases the chance of getting one, but I don't know if there are any wonders we want or techs in the GE path that we can rush. Maybe a National Epic in Thebes? It would still be useful once we can start triggering Golden Ages with Pacifism so we can speed up great people production.
Taking Machinery as an example at 1046 beakers, it takes 715.464 EP with just 5 turns and trade route.
We make 160 BPT, so that's 7 turns of commerce. We can get 132 EPT so that's 6 turns of commerce. I guess it becomes a no brainer then to try to steal these techs, as long as we don't get stalled by the 5 turns wait.
Turn 1: Cold Whip Spy in Orleans, start road on tile 1SE from NW City. Start Settler in Copper City.
Turn 2: Whip Settler in Copper City, Spy starts moving to NW
Turn 3: Spy arrives at NW, City founded on NW City.
Turn 8: Steal Machinery.
I'll finish the university in Paris, Forge in fish city, and everyone else pumping out Muskets, with Munich finishing the Barracks this turn. We'll want forges everywhere else, so I'll try to shift gear when I think we have Hatty in the bag.
Scientist specialists will be creating passive beakers. Don't want to stop working them as we still need the GS. I'm thinking Divine Right would be the best place for the beakers, since we're planning on stealing Machinery and Engineering. That would get us one more tech discount on Nationalism which we might eventually want to get for Taj Mahal and Nationhood.
Do we want Copper City to be working an engineer? We currently have Hanging Gardens, so it increases the chance of getting one, but I don't know if there are any wonders we want or techs in the GE path that we can rush. Maybe a National Epic in Thebes? It would still be useful once we can start triggering Golden Ages with Pacifism so we can speed up great people production.
Sorry, I feel like I kind of dropped the ball on this set. If I didn't play the first two turns to Gunpowder, we could have got the Spy set up more smoothly, but I just didn't see that far ahead until I got to our tech switch.
The earliest we can get 10 HA's realistically to Thebes is 6 turns. Even then, I don't think that will work out since she can whip both Longbows and Pikes by that time, and she'll have a chance two whip two of them if we attack by land because of the hills. In 6 turns we can get two galleys to that corner south of greece where we can land an invasion force the turn we declare war. 8 turns gives us 3 galleys. Give or take a few turns to pick up a couple HA's, since I don't think we'll be able to get that many Muskets down to that corner fast enough.
Realistically we'll have a shot at stealing a tech before we can land an invasion force in Thebes.
The earliest we can get 10 HA's realistically to Thebes is 6 turns. Even then, I don't think that will work out since she can whip both Longbows and Pikes by that time, and she'll have a chance two whip two of them if we attack by land because of the hills. In 6 turns we can get two galleys to that corner south of greece where we can land an invasion force the turn we declare war. 8 turns gives us 3 galleys. Give or take a few turns to pick up a couple HA's, since I don't think we'll be able to get that many Muskets down to that corner fast enough.
Realistically we'll have a shot at stealing a tech before we can land an invasion force in Thebes.
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Spiritual AI will switch civics at most every 5t, so Hatshepsut may not be able to whip any units while our stack approaches. She can of course upgrade Archers to Longbowmen, if she has enough wealth (gold).
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Non-spiritual AIs wait 20t before considerating a Civics change.
In either case, spiritual or non-spritual, the AI waits the set amount of turns before considering a civics change.
Even while under attack, the AI might decide to stay in the current labor civic rather than switch to slavery to whip units (when its switching turn occurs).
An AI does not consider a city under threat of attack until the attacking units are within 2 plots, either orthogonally or diagonally (= BFC + the four corners, 2 plots diagonally from the city center).
In either case, spiritual or non-spritual, the AI waits the set amount of turns before considering a civics change.
Even while under attack, the AI might decide to stay in the current labor civic rather than switch to slavery to whip units (when its switching turn occurs).
An AI does not consider a city under threat of attack until the attacking units are within 2 plots, either orthogonally or diagonally (= BFC + the four corners, 2 plots diagonally from the city center).
If nobody has any objections, I'm going to try to steal Machinery first before DoW'ing, giving us some time to collect some Galleys and muskets before invading Hatty. It only delays our invasion a couple turns and we can get Engineering faster which will help us conquer more quickly and get working on important techs.
I'll keep Copper City working an engineer, as we can use a GE for any number of things and it's worth the chance. We can rush something like Ironworks or National Epic pretty easily, and it can bulb Steel/Railroad too.
I'll keep Copper City working an engineer, as we can use a GE for any number of things and it's worth the chance. We can rush something like Ironworks or National Epic pretty easily, and it can bulb Steel/Railroad too.
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I'm fine with delaying attacks on Hatshepsut and Saladin. We need a massive build up of Musketeers to capture massive numbers of cities. This will also require Code of Laws, since supporting massive numbers of cities is best done via building Courthouse in all but the nearest cities to our Capital, Forbidden Palace and Versailles (assuming we build or capture it).
I agree that a GE is useful. Good point that it can be used to bulb Railroad.
I agree that a GE is useful. Good point that it can be used to bulb Railroad.
Ran into a complication. She's not taking our NW city. I don't really know what's going on here, as she still only has 4 cities and there is zero culture there. Our galleys are almost in place, and muskets are almost in place.
It looks like our best shot is to give her lyons, but attack as soon as possible and hope to get peace and open borders soon.
It looks like our best shot is to give her lyons, but attack as soon as possible and hope to get peace and open borders soon.
Since that city is going to be pretty junk, I think we should gift that to someone for now. Maybe Stalin to get on his good side temporarily, but that would give us more pressure from Darius. Mehmet is he might also be a good option.
Alexander is a safe pick too since he's not going anywhere.
Alexander is a safe pick too since he's not going anywhere.
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We can capture Thebes, cease fire and give the city when Hatshepsut has just three cities.
We can fortify the spies in the gift city before we give it away. If the spy was motionless for 5t when the city is given, it will immediate gain -50% espionage discount for stationary spy.
We can fortify the spies in the gift city before we give it away. If the spy was motionless for 5t when the city is given, it will immediate gain -50% espionage discount for stationary spy.
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Settlers do not factor into the city gift rule. Only the actual number of cities count.
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