Maybe it has been mentioned, but if the idea is conquest, maybe an option is to vassal Hatty quickly and direct her research to get techs that are useful for us, but not on the path to RR. I'm specifically thinking nationalism for the draft here. Maybe even constitution if we're interested in representation and gift back her capital to not break her research muscle. Of course we can only vassal 1 AI, but maybe it's better an early useful vassal than being able to vassal the last AI standing. By then our army should be so huge that conquering that last AI might be faster than his willingness to talk anyway.
SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
No, we didn't talk about making Hatty a vassal. Killing Hatty would be as easy as vassalizing her. She has only 3 cities. Each guarded by one longbow. Thebes has Pyramids. Alexandria Great Library. I want those for ourselves. But she is out of the way to get to far east. Maybe two researchers are better than one.
One vassal could be Stalin who is on half the road to east. He is also best UN foe. But a lot harder to win UN with him as our vassal.
One vassal could be Stalin who is on half the road to east. He is also best UN foe. But a lot harder to win UN with him as our vassal.
Thanks for the calculations. It's good to know they are similar.
Conquest is a little more straight forward and more fun.
Wouldn't not getting a Great Engineer delay UN by a few turns?
Played one turn.
Spy captured. He wasn't there long. Hatty is now researching Music (3 turns). So, good we didn't divert. Still, looks like Taj won't be ours.
Captured Oporto at last. This time without casualties.
A couple builds we didn't talk about. So, started Forges in Bordeaux and Berlin.
Egyptian and English culture is annoying. and Barbarian
Playing 2nd turn now.
Spy captured. He wasn't there long. Hatty is now researching Music (3 turns). So, good we didn't divert. Still, looks like Taj won't be ours.
Captured Oporto at last. This time without casualties.
A couple builds we didn't talk about. So, started Forges in Bordeaux and Berlin.
Egyptian and English culture is annoying. and Barbarian
Playing 2nd turn now.
We have Machinery and enough gold to upgrade 4 axes; plus one more per turn.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Unusual_Suspects_SG023_AD0001_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Session Turn Log:
Note Items I colored.
We can trade for Polytheism or research it in one turn.
Some units have moved, some haven't.
Who is up? I think it is between swede and Ronnie.
Deckhand: 0 - 5, 70-82, 105-115
nocho: 5-20,
Ronnie1: 20 - 40, 55-70, 90-99
Zhary: 40 - 54
kcd_swede: 83 - 89, 100-104
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Unusual_Suspects_SG023_AD0001_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Session Turn Log:
Note Items I colored.
Spoiler :
Some units have moved, some haven't.
Who is up? I think it is between swede and Ronnie.
Deckhand: 0 - 5, 70-82, 105-115
nocho: 5-20,
Ronnie1: 20 - 40, 55-70, 90-99
Zhary: 40 - 54
kcd_swede: 83 - 89, 100-104
Finally we have kiled the Portuguese.
OK, lotsa good ideas from nocho and zhary coming in. And ty deckhand for letting us know what we'd be up against with Hatty.
I think all the AI will be approximately equal in terms of ability to resist our franco-civilizing persuasion. So we need to look at all aspects... tech, stealing tech. vassaling and directing tech, marching to the far east, winning the endgame (conq or dip VC) and what we need to make it happen.
I find that at Monarch level, any tech help AI can give you is in the BC era. This includes vassals. So I don't see a pressing need to take Egypt. It is already too late for 'Mids and GLib to be a difference-maker, imo. Let her be for now, and if it is quicker to kill her or get her votes, we can decide later. I would advocate stealing from her any tech that backfills to our destiny. I do not know that astronomy will be needed to win conq, but if so, I'd rather steal it than tech it myself.
Stalin and we are going to fight it out at some point, unless we are fighting together. I suppose the choice strategy-wise then is whether to blast thru Russia or thru the Middle East. Since dh does not like barb culture, the ME is maybe the way to go, as long as we can entice Stalin to join. Otherwise, get the commie bastard before he gets us.
Let us say turn 180 is the deadline. How do we get there? (I take 10% from Zhary's calc to give us ambitious target). If we beeline, how many turns to RR? If we kill, kill, kill, how many turns until we go on strike?
Anyhow, I can play in the next 5 days, so perhaps short sets can get us moving again... but best if we can decide on the strategy before commiting to the next tech.
Ronnie1
Deity
My work schedule is erratic, so I can play here and there as needed.
I am still inclined to go Istanbul next, because Ottomans are an easier target in the short run than Russia.
I agree that not attacking Hatty in the short run is the better plan. Too many hammers diverted now from moving east.
Engineering next for the movement bonus and TREBS seems obvious to me.
I am still inclined to go Istanbul next, because Ottomans are an easier target in the short run than Russia.
I agree that not attacking Hatty in the short run is the better plan. Too many hammers diverted now from moving east.
Engineering next for the movement bonus and TREBS seems obvious to me.
I do agree Istanbul and the Ottomans in general should be next, obviously our army is well placed for that. In fact, I also agree the main thrust should be eastwards. Just thinking that a secondary force can be built mainly from the Iberian Peninsula that could work on Egypt at some point and then move on to the Arabs. While generally landing first at the capital of an AI is best, maybe here just land at Alexandria first and then go from there. Three galleys ferrying between Oporto (soon to be renamed Barcelona 
) and Alexandria should be enough, those same galleys might be used to drop units faster at Thebes afterwards. After that they can take the Suez at Thebes and be used for the Arab invasion. But let me insist that I see it as a secondary force.
Do we know what forces the Ottomans have? Maybe the GG-chariot can have a look now if needed. Is the unused GG meant for a second super medic?
Engineering next seems evident indeed.
One question, that site labeled as "The Far East", does that count as the Orient as in where the railroad should go?
) and Alexandria should be enough, those same galleys might be used to drop units faster at Thebes afterwards. After that they can take the Suez at Thebes and be used for the Arab invasion. But let me insist that I see it as a secondary force.Do we know what forces the Ottomans have? Maybe the GG-chariot can have a look now if needed. Is the unused GG meant for a second super medic?
Engineering next seems evident indeed.
One question, that site labeled as "The Far East", does that count as the Orient as in where the railroad should go?
My work schedule is erratic, so I can play here and there as needed.
I am still inclined to go Istanbul next, because Ottomans are an easier target in the short run than Russia.
I agree that not attacking Hatty in the short run is the better plan. Too many hammers diverted now from moving east.
Engineering next for the movement bonus and TREBS seems obvious to me.
I agree!
I do agree Istanbul and the Ottomans in general should be next, obviously our army is well placed for that. In fact, I also agree the main thrust should be eastwards. Just thinking that a secondary force can be built mainly from the Iberian Peninsula that could work on Egypt at some point and then move on to the Arabs. While generally landing first at the capital of an AI is best, maybe here just land at Alexandria first and then go from there. Three galleys ferrying between Oporto (soon to be renamed Barcelona
Do we know what forces the Ottomans have? Maybe the GG-chariot can have a look now if needed. Is the unused GG meant for a second super medic?
Engineering next seems evident indeed.
One question, that site labeled as "The Far East", does that count as the Orient as in where the railroad should go?
Yes, scout the Ottomans if we can. Do they have Feudalism? He is Expansive and Org, so it should be nicer than Protective. Just don't let him get to Jannisarys.
I would settle the GG in our best production city (with barracks) will make us cr2 trebs which rock. We'll get another GG for another medic long before we have need of a second stack.
So lets just say Ronni1 is up. Make a PPP please. I think we are ready to move onward to Ottomans and tech Engr and everything else is details.
Incredibly, if you want I could actually take a set. From Saturday to Monday I have 3 days with nothing specific to do other than going to the swimming pool with the kids. But that won't be the whole day. Tuesday I'll be off for holidays but armed with the laptop.
There was talk of upgrading axes to maces, which cost 125g a piece, so we have cash for 4 upgrades. Maybe 5 with some trades. Are we positive on that? If we spent it on Engineering at full speed instead we get that 2 turns earlier. Currently Mehmed does not have feudalism, so no longbows for now. The sooner we strike the better.
Is a world map for 50g from Hatty worth it? Given the price it should reveal at least something significant, although probably nothing too shocking either. I'm inclined to trade monarchy to Church for Poly+80g.
Lisbon IMO should get a barracks. Seems we can whip it heavily with all the food after the borders pop and with the units queued, rax makes sense. Maybe forge too. Obviously most cities need forges, exceptions for now IMO would be Le Havre, Munich and Cologne. Inclined to 3-pop whip the forge in Bordeaux, or maybe even 4-pop now.
Tuesday I'll be off for holidays but armed with the laptop.There was talk of upgrading axes to maces, which cost 125g a piece, so we have cash for 4 upgrades. Maybe 5 with some trades. Are we positive on that? If we spent it on Engineering at full speed instead we get that 2 turns earlier. Currently Mehmed does not have feudalism, so no longbows for now. The sooner we strike the better.
Is a world map for 50g from Hatty worth it? Given the price it should reveal at least something significant, although probably nothing too shocking either. I'm inclined to trade monarchy to Church for Poly+80g.
Lisbon IMO should get a barracks. Seems we can whip it heavily with all the food after the borders pop and with the units queued, rax makes sense. Maybe forge too. Obviously most cities need forges, exceptions for now IMO would be Le Havre, Munich and Cologne. Inclined to 3-pop whip the forge in Bordeaux, or maybe even 4-pop now.
Ronnie1
Deity
Take it for a few nocho!
I believe we already got Hatty's map.
I believe we already got Hatty's map.
you got it nocho. Put down all the chatter that we agree on into a ppp and we can let you have at it. Basically, I think we are all on the same page strategically. But a 4-pop whip? I'd need to see some numbers before approval. 2-pop whip is most effective food-to-hammer ratio, in my understanding... but I do whip units like a sadist. I don't think I have ever 4-pop whipped a building. Maybe a Wonder or a desperation unit. Sounds harsh. :whip:
Ronnie1
Deity
I don't mind a 4 pop whip in Bordeaux. I don't care for the cottage improvement anyway, and it is the only improved tile we are whipping off. Overflow a cat build in 1 turn also.
Lisbon is the type of city that could be whipped and drafted almost every turn with the Globe Theater in place. Bummer it is at the edge of the map. It could still provide a ton of end game units in the western half of the map if we want to go that way.
Just noticed Hatty has no metals currently, only access is iron in western Africa.
If the 3 English galleys in London are loaded, we could lose either LeHavre or Munich in 2 or 3 turns respectively.
I don't care for the cottage improvement anyway, and it is the only improved tile we are whipping off. Overflow a cat build in 1 turn also.Lisbon is the type of city that could be whipped and drafted almost every turn with the Globe Theater in place. Bummer it is at the edge of the map. It could still provide a ton of end game units in the western half of the map if we want to go that way.
Just noticed Hatty has no metals currently, only access is iron in western Africa.
If the 3 English galleys in London are loaded, we could lose either LeHavre or Munich in 2 or 3 turns respectively.
PPPP (Provisional PPP)
Paris: catapult, forge
Bordeaux: forge (2 pop whip, giving in to kcd
), maces
Le Havre: chariot, forge (maybe also for engineer slot)
Nice: forge (2 pop whip), maces
Athens: LH, forge
Rome: LH, forge
Cologne: LH, cats
Lisbon: switch to barracks, archer, mace
Berlin: forge (2 pop whip (or not depending on chop timing, see down)), barracks, units
Munich: switch to granary, library
Oporto Barcelona: monument-forge-barracks.
Great General settles in Berlin. Good hammer city, better positioned wrt the front lines. Possible HE city.
Tech: engineering. If we keep the cash then it's doable in 4 turns. If not 6/7 turns, going binary in that case.
Army: right now 6 axes, 5 cats, chariot medic. If declaring next turn a spear can join the party which might be good against any horse units and next turn we can have upgraded 4 or 5 axes to maces. Also if we declare next turn our chariot can have a look now at what Istanbul holds.
So I'd propose upgrade 5 maces and declare next turn if chariot indeed doesn't reveal anything bothering in Istanbul right now (chariot move would go before upgrading of course).
Trade: get poly+80g from Church for monarchy. That cash is needed for 5th upgrade. Keep eye on other trades.
Workers: general improvements. Should get the road to Istanbul done. Berlin pops borders soon so those 2nd ring GHs need chopping and mining. I see non riverside cottages being built which I'm not very fond of, but I guess for commerce cities like Le Havre and Paris itself they can be good. Those 2 workers at Barcelona can maybe start by chopping the forest 2N to speed up monument and then mine the iron as soon as it's out of revolt.
Units: directing to the front. Lisbon's axe can start walking too. The archer 2W of Nice looks like walking from the east. Is it meant to go to Paris for its happy cap (HR)?
Scouting: scout units keep up their good work. I'm still wondering if according to the rules "The Far East" means "Orient" or not. Strictly speaking no of course, but in that case it's a bit confusing...
Stopping points, any of:
- Chariot-GG sees something impressive in Istanbul T0.
- Engineering in
- Istanbul captured
- Anything unexpected that requires team input
which would boil down to 5-6/7 turns at most.
Paris: catapult, forge
Bordeaux: forge (2 pop whip, giving in to kcd
), macesLe Havre: chariot, forge (maybe also for engineer slot)
Nice: forge (2 pop whip), maces
Athens: LH, forge
Rome: LH, forge
Cologne: LH, cats
Lisbon: switch to barracks, archer, mace
Berlin: forge (2 pop whip (or not depending on chop timing, see down)), barracks, units
Munich: switch to granary, library
Great General settles in Berlin. Good hammer city, better positioned wrt the front lines. Possible HE city.
Tech: engineering. If we keep the cash then it's doable in 4 turns. If not 6/7 turns, going binary in that case.
Army: right now 6 axes, 5 cats, chariot medic. If declaring next turn a spear can join the party which might be good against any horse units and next turn we can have upgraded 4 or 5 axes to maces. Also if we declare next turn our chariot can have a look now at what Istanbul holds.
So I'd propose upgrade 5 maces and declare next turn if chariot indeed doesn't reveal anything bothering in Istanbul right now (chariot move would go before upgrading of course).
Trade: get poly+80g from Church for monarchy. That cash is needed for 5th upgrade. Keep eye on other trades.
Workers: general improvements. Should get the road to Istanbul done. Berlin pops borders soon so those 2nd ring GHs need chopping and mining. I see non riverside cottages being built which I'm not very fond of, but I guess for commerce cities like Le Havre and Paris itself they can be good. Those 2 workers at Barcelona can maybe start by chopping the forest 2N to speed up monument and then mine the iron as soon as it's out of revolt.
Units: directing to the front. Lisbon's axe can start walking too. The archer 2W of Nice looks like walking from the east. Is it meant to go to Paris for its happy cap (HR)?
Scouting: scout units keep up their good work. I'm still wondering if according to the rules "The Far East" means "Orient" or not. Strictly speaking no of course, but in that case it's a bit confusing...
Stopping points, any of:
- Chariot-GG sees something impressive in Istanbul T0.
- Engineering in
- Istanbul captured
- Anything unexpected that requires team input
which would boil down to 5-6/7 turns at most.
Looks good nocho! Is it feasible to beg/demand another 10g from Church to keep him pacified? If not, we really should think about protecting our backside. If I were him, I'd be attacking us already.
Keep 2 units in LeHavre, axe/archer combo should do. Add a pause for whn they dow, and I am GREEN
Keep 2 units in LeHavre, axe/archer combo should do. Add a pause for whn they dow, and I am GREEN
A DoW would count as "anything unexpected" so I'd certainly pause. 
I don't think we can beg at cautious, we'd need him to be pleased. Maybe if we sell monarchy slightly cheaper he gets to pleased and we leave him something we can actually beg...
I don't think we can beg at cautious, we'd need him to be pleased. Maybe if we sell monarchy slightly cheaper he gets to pleased and we leave him something we can actually beg...
Ronnie1
Deity
We "demanded" 10 gold from Churchill before to get a forced peace, I believe he is suggesting we do that again.
From the maintenance thread while you were enjoying Euro '16,
"Important detail:
There is a naming mistake on the sign telling you you found "the Orient". Somewhere between map version I changed it, but that change didn't get carried over to the final version. If you find it, you will recognize it anyway. There are no other signs you could confuse it with."
Green
From the maintenance thread while you were enjoying Euro '16,
"Important detail:
There is a naming mistake on the sign telling you you found "the Orient". Somewhere between map version I changed it, but that change didn't get carried over to the final version. If you find it, you will recognize it anyway. There are no other signs you could confuse it with."
Green
I'm not too worried about Churchill. We're the only one that he has no religious differences with and Stalin is his worst enemy. Also, powerwise we can't be feeble in his eyes, so I think the fist is not for us. Besides, Le Havre currently is defended by 2 archers and an axe. Both Le Havre and Munich (shouldn't that be Rotterdam? ) can emergency whip units if needed. Accidents may happen, but we should be able to get back rather easily any accidental loss we might incur. In the worst of cases that might be Munich, as Le Havre is sufficiently defended, which wouldn't be a mayor setback if we lose it temporarily. But I think the chance it will happen is rather low. I'd keep some vigilance units around like in Le Havre and basically ignore. I wouldn't make a demand now, but if begging is on the table if we bump him to pleased with the trade (possible but not likely) we could beg.
I moved the chariot to look at Istanbul. It's defended by only 2 archers. That means we could declare now, but upgrading to maces and declare next turn might be more prudent in case he has units closeby in the fog. Of course he'll have turns to reinforce his capital before we arrive. So probably I'd stick to the T+1 plan.
Istanbul has 60% defenses and is on a hill. Do we spend time bombarding or just suicide some cats? Don't know how you went about in the previous conquests.
) can emergency whip units if needed. Accidents may happen, but we should be able to get back rather easily any accidental loss we might incur. In the worst of cases that might be Munich, as Le Havre is sufficiently defended, which wouldn't be a mayor setback if we lose it temporarily. But I think the chance it will happen is rather low. I'd keep some vigilance units around like in Le Havre and basically ignore. I wouldn't make a demand now, but if begging is on the table if we bump him to pleased with the trade (possible but not likely) we could beg.I moved the chariot to look at Istanbul. It's defended by only 2 archers. That means we could declare now, but upgrading to maces and declare next turn might be more prudent in case he has units closeby in the fog. Of course he'll have turns to reinforce his capital before we arrive. So probably I'd stick to the T+1 plan.
Istanbul has 60% defenses and is on a hill. Do we spend time bombarding or just suicide some cats? Don't know how you went about in the previous conquests.
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