SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

[Deckhand]

Agree about 1 movers. I built more than I planned. Trebs as still reasonably near front. And archers for garrisons. Garrisons aren't needed everywhere but will be nice when we draft. I have hard time leaving cities empty. (aren't any now, but were some during my turn)
Built trebs for England as thought it was cost effective. Not far to go and a lot of culture there.

Agree about collateral. We should decide which cities to bombard [close ones and high culture] and which to just assault with knights/musketeers. Knights do better but we will have a lot more musketeers.

We should analyze impact of Mil Trad on tech path. Probably speed up conquest and RR still ready in time. Trade for Music. (Hmmn, need to wait for Taj?) Then MT; finish Steel after that.
Hatty: Printing Press, Replaceable Parts; then we get Steam Power and RR from Liberalism.

Globe probably not worth it. We have enough cities to draft 3 per turn for quite a while.

I think finish off Russia now but go MT when we can.

 

[nocho]

Nice job, Deckhand. Didn't have a chance to take a look yesterday.

I think I'd just finish off the Russians. Only Vladivostok will take some turns as we have to move over hills. If Stalin is dead we'll have some good drafting material relatively close to the front.

I'm not sure we really need MT. Kublai Khan is pretty backward, Gandhi will be a pushover, so I guess it's meant for Mao? We're already 2.3 power on him, even before drafting. And he'll be expending part of that power on Gandhi.

I'm not convinced that the bottleneck to this game will be the speed of conquering. The remaining AIs will crumble pretty soon I think.

Also, once we have railroad, we will still need a number of turns to construct that railroad. During that time we can obviously continue conquering AIs. Currently we only have 12 workers and maybe we end up with 40 or so, but then still construcitng the RR might take what, at least 5 turns under the most ideal circumstances? I think possibly a bit more. I would probably bypass MT at this stage and just try to get to RR asap. We could still go MT at some point, but for now I don't see the need. Just crush them all with numbers.

Another thing, our RR should be all within cultural borders, right? Of coourse that means we either have to have conquered the cities on the route in advance so that they are out of revolt, or we should go raze and plant a whole number of new cities along the track just before victory, hence mass producing settlers. We should at least have some sort of plan for this, it might affect who to attack first (i.e. if the track goes through India, maybe not attack India last).

And I do agree with trying to aim for a triple GA and have finished the game well before the last one ends.

 

[nocho]

Ok, on second thought we might have time for MT after all as we use it for trading with Hatty. Maybe you already talked about that, so let me then jsut discuss it with myself out loud. We take music from Gandhi for CS and while we're at it, compass from Sal for philo. We direct Hatty on PP -> RP. Steel would get us PP + banking, but not RP + banking as RP requires banking and we can't get them at the same time. So MT should serve to get RP, maybe with some (conquest) money tossed in. After that only self tech steam power and lib RR. So we should tech MT, Steel and Steam ourselves. That should indeed be quite doable within our conquest time frame with GAs to boot! So I'm ok on MT, it won't slow us down at all, after all we need something to trade to Hatty. The only thing with MT before steel is we can't do all those trades until we have both techs, if we first go steel we can do the PP+banking trade and then tech MT while Hatty techs RP. But then we have MT later. So maybe MT, steel and then get those three techs from Hatty at about the same time.

 

[Zhary]

Did you mean Steel? autocorrect?

Yes autocorrect. It should be a strong= astronomy. If we need to chase Mao al the way down to Australia. I think someone had the idea that Hatty could tech us that while we tech SP.

Regarding curs. Remember that we can draft 3 musketeers for 1 whipped cur and those three musketeers are kickass fighters.(At least the book say so sorry I just had to include that sentence somewhere)

What we should think about is when enough is enough. 27 musketeers already feels a little bit overkill and Nat block the eco bonus from Bur.

 

[kcd_swede]

OK, work out the details and I can execute. I'll visit the save later today and see what I can see.

 

[Zhary]

OK, work out the details and I can execute. I'll visit the save later today and see what I can see.

What details do you want? Collect the above posts in one post. As Nocho pointed out we need to go MT for the trades with Hatty so its not really anything to vote about.

 

[Deckhand]

What details do you want? Collect the above posts in one post. As Nocho pointed out we need to go MT for the trades with Hatty so its not really anything to vote about.

Agree

But one of us can do it for you if you are too busy and want to wait a day.


This was my trading plan

Steel for Banking & Printing Press; Nationalism (after Taj built) for Replaceable Parts

.
We can easily get Mao's islands with just galleys. But upgrading them to galleons would help if Hatty gets to Astronomy in time.

We can start workers everywhere 1 turns before Steam Power, whip them turn we learn Steam Power, and they start working next turn when we Lib Railroad.

Good point about culture along Railroad. Need to decide on path and take it first. And figure how long Mao's last cities will be in revolt. Do we need to raze them?
But not needed for next turn.

Mini PPP: Build non-seige units for Churchill. Assemble them and trebs with galleys.
Split forces into three groups. At least two go after Russia. Third probably Mongolia.
Perhaps shortest path to The Far East Orient.

Make trades and tech as in posts above. Research Steel or Military Tradition. Either works. Maybe get whichever is faster?

Start Golden Age and switch to Nationalism and what else?
This hasn't been discussed.

 

[Ronnie1]

Good point about culture along Railroad. Need to decide on path and take it first. And figure how long Mao's last cities will be in revolt. Do we need to raze them?

Split forces into three groups. At least two go after Russia. Third probably Mongolia.
Perhaps shortest path to The Far East Orient.

This is why I think 2/3 of our existing army needs to go east! We want to conquer the RR route asap imo. 1/3 + reinforcements for Russia (basically just cleanup now) and new units keep filling the wholes and prepping for England and Arabia.

Musketeers are great, but 1xp musketeers are not as great as 5+xp cuirassiers. Yes they are probably not "needed", but I think they will speed up our conquest. Flanking II promos for cities with culture are awesome!

Start Golden Age and switch to Nationalism and what else?

Not really any options that make sense. Police State would be great, but not available. We don't really want to whip during a GA too much, but slavery is still probably better than the other options. We don't have any good options in the economy column until/if we get Economics, so no changes there.

I look at drafting a little different maybe, I try to find a few cities that grow very quickly and don't care how many citizens I pile up. This way I keep the pop up in my better/productive cities. Lisbon would be a great spot. It can be drafted every turn and regrow from size 5-6 every turn. It is just so far from everyone except Churchill.

 

[Deckhand]

Another advantage of cuirassiers is that they might make Hatty useful against Arabia. So, I am in favor of MT next.

tonight is (friendly) online EU4 night, after which I might take a cut at a PPP (planning is fun - that's why we are all still playing Civ4)

a couple more minor things I thought of today:
Chariot in India scout and label defenses and Mongolian/Chinese forces - then escape to China (to do the same) before we declare on Mongolia
Perhaps send a force of musketeers w a couple knights to ambush keshik stack in India? (hmmn, they could probably continue onto thru India/China to attack eastern Mongolian cities )
Black Sea galley continue to distract attention of Russian trireme while staying out of its reach
Evaluate whether to continue National Epic in Portugal?
Determine when/where we will get two more great people for 3rd GA?
I will look at railroad paths later. Also to be considered: cities to keep/raze; Religion? (do we have enough cities of one type to benefit from Theocracy?)

 

[kcd_swede]

Change of plans... I can't get time to play until later next week. Suggest Zhary take the next set this weekend. Or someone.

 

[Zhary]

Ok. I will put together a PPP today and execute it on Sunday.

Should we adopt theocracy during the GA for some extra xp? Will Hattys tech get more expensive if we chose another religion than Islam?

 

[Zhary]

PPP(~10 turns):

Overall plan: Continue on the conquest path. Start a GA for Drafts. Draft according to previous post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14390916&postcount=833. Except that I switch place between Athens and Ankara to have Musketeers closer to India faster.

Tech:
Check Hattys tech every turn. Plan is that she is going to tech PP -> RP.
Trades: Music from Gandhi for CS, Compass from Sal for philo. Trade PP asap when Hatty is done with it to get the bonus.
Tech MT->Steel

Army:
Slow army continues in Russia. Fast army gather at the Mongolian border. Heals and wait for reinforcement. Attack in ~5 turns. Keep al Russian city since they al have enough rescources.

GP:
Athens works 1En+2Sc. Lisbon fires every specialist next turn and hires 4 merchants again when they won't outrun the GP in Athens. Plan is to have GM+GS/GP/GE for a third GA.

Builds:
Cities with Stable:Knights
Cities w/o Stable:Musketeers
Costal cities by the north sea and indian ocean:Galleys(3 more in North and South?)
Lisbon:NE
Istanbul:FP
Whipped infrastructure in Russia:
Granary/Courthouses/Barracks

 

[Zhary]

OE Path:
We need to conect Istanbul to far east and Istanbul to Paris. Best way now seems to be to have the tracks going through Mongolia and Russia. Al Mongolian cities should be out of revolt when before we are finished with India. Maybe we should resettle the Northen Chinese city It depends on the War.

 

[kcd_swede]

Green

 

[Ronnie1]

Cities w/o Stable:Musketeers

Build stables please! Once we have MT, our "built" forces will be almost all mounted, and we will draft the muskets.

Draft Hamburg for Churchill defensive units please. Try to find cities that are size 6-7 that can be drafted a lot!

Green

 

[Deckhand]

We have enough galleys to conquer Churchill = 3.
I will locate and edit/repost plan here so you don't have to look it up.
Build non-siege units, load and go.
However, we will need some new ones (2) after the invasion to retrieve our forces, build after invasion underway.

please consider:
Perhaps send a force of musketeers w a couple knights to ambush keshik stack in India? (hmmn, they could probably continue onto thru India/China to attack eastern Mongolian cities )

also:
Chariot in India scout and label defenses and Mongolian/Chinese forces - then escape to China (to do the same) before we declare on Mongolia
Black Sea galley continue to distract attention of Russian trireme while staying out of its reach

Agree with stables in high production/high population cities.
for GP plan.

GREEN (since you are playing Sunday, might have more comments before then)

 

[Deckhand]

Looked at Save

For Churchill
In four turns we will have three galleys in position.
– 3 galleys can drop 12 units off before dieing (drop 6, move back, reload, end turn, drop off six more) [one galley can be promoted]
- Start galleys loaded in our controlled sea tile in NW: move one tile and drop off and move back. 4 tiles from London caravels. Reload on turn of drop off /decl. Next turn drop off 6 more. Then Navy is exposed to London's fleet. And army has to march 1 tile to be next to London.
- We have 3 trebs in London and 1 finishing in Nice. Also 2-pop whippable trebs in LeHavre and Rotterdam. One musketeer headed west by Nice.
- Need to build rest of invasion force.
- Declare in ~ five turns

Perhaps send a force of musketeers w a couple knights to ambush keshik stack in India? (hmmn, they could probably continue onto thru India/China to attack eastern Mongolian cities )

India/China too far away for this plan. Keep an eye on Keshik stack(s) hopefully Kublai suicides in India. Maybe build some defensive pikes. Or just some musketeers in area.

Spoiler :

I've been watching Netflix Marco Polo series.

Can send treb stack vs Tabriz and big speedy musketeers/knights to Beshbalik via Ecbatana

Railroad
16 tiles from Paris to Istanbul (either thru Berlin or Rome)
33 tiles from Istanbul to Nanjing thru India; 32 tiles via Mongolia - and that is quickest path to conquer
Go East young man
Prebuild roads thru Romania when workers available

Espionage
for tech visibility
1. Saladin - one turn
2. Gandhi - next
3. Kublai - doesn't matter
Mao - we have it
Hatty - unnecessary, we see it as she is vassal
Churchill - will take too long and we will be at war with him soon

Religion
Adopt Islam!
We have many cities with it. also unnecessary help with Saladin/Hatty relationships

Civics
HR
Nationhood!
Slavery
Mercantilism (as soon as switch available after getting Banking from Hatty)
either Theology or perhaps Organized Religion while building Forbidden Palace

 

[Zhary]

Ok
No more navy in the north ATM. Agree with everything else to.

 

[nocho]

Just to muddy our waters, I think we might win quicker through an Islamic AP... Arabia as opponent, Hatty voting for us. Even islamic Churchill might be worked up to friendly. Spread to an Indian, Chinese and a Mongol city (possibly through gifting), kill Russia. Open corridor through Mongolia and northern China to Orient for RR. Some work needed, but not overly complicated either. At least we could forget about boats and killing off far-flung cities.

Just an idea. Feel free to ignore.

Green, but if we go Islamic, try build the AP somewhere.

EDIT: Mongolia already has an Islamic city in the far NE.

 

[Ronnie1]

Just to muddy our waters, I think we might win quicker through an Islamic AP... Arabia as opponent, Hatty voting for us. Even islamic Churchill might be worked up to friendly. Spread to an Indian, Chinese and a Mongol city (possibly through gifting), kill Russia. Open corridor through Mongolia and northern China to Orient for RR. Some work needed, but not overly complicated either. At least we could forget about boats and killing off far-flung cities.

How do we control the territory on the RR route this way?