SGOTM 23 - Xteam

Dhoom, you must spend more time typing than playing. It's appreciated.

Seeing units inside Stalin's cities with spy points didn't even occur to me, while it was so obvious to you that you couldn't understand my reasoning that wasn't considering it.

Instead of two HA's in our Egyptian cities, what about at least one spear to help deal with his war chariots.

I'd prefer Gunpowder to Machinery for the 2-movement unit that has no natural enemy.

I can't get back to the game until late tonight and tomorrow is pretty full. Can you play, Joe. I will have all day Sunday available, but not much discretionary time before then. Edit: See that you can. Great!

Does it make sense to build the HE now?
 
I'll be unavailable for playing for the next couple of days.

I'll try to throw together some suggestions for the next player.

A test game confirms that it's exactly 88 (final) Hammers invested in a University that will be required for that University to be 3-pop-whippable in a City with Organized Religion and without a Forge, aka Ruby Bay (87 Hammers = a 4-pop-whippable item).

We won't have 88 or more Hammers in Ruby Bay's University until T124, so our Ruby Bay University won't be whippable until T124, so we might as well plan to whip all of our Universities on that turn.

Suggested PPP
T122
Paris builds Christian Missionary and 1-pop-whips it
Paris steals back the Copper from XO Cognac (XO Cognac can just plan to 3-pop-whip its University)
Jackpot might as well whip its Spy now, to give it enough time to obtain a decent Stationary Bonus
Worker 3 (at 1 W of Argent) probably should save that Chop for Moai (sorry, bad planning on my part), so we can build a partial Road and STOP this turn

T123
Paris builds Christian Temple (it has already been whipped)
Argent could switch to building Moai Statues for a turn to collect Worker 3's Chop from 1 W of Argent
Cologne can whip its Courthouse

T124
Paris builds University and 3-pop-whips it
Other Cities whip their Universities: XO Cognac, London, Argent (make sure to whip the University and not Moai), Ruby Bay, and St. Pete's

T125
Paris builds Oxford University
Our Workers Chop these Forests into Oxford University:
G Riv For at 1 NW of Paris
G For at 2 N of Paris
G Riv For at 2 NE of Paris
G For at 1 SW + 2 S of Paris
If necessary, we Chop Paris' Fur, as well, so be prepared to Chop it by having it pre-Chopped to within 1 turn--it's already had 1 turn of Chopping put into it

That means having 5 Workers ready, with them doing random jobs before then--the Forest at 2 N of Paris and the Forest at 1 NE of Paris can have 3 Cottage turns put into each of them (Cottage 3 turns, Chop 1 turn, then after Chopping Cottage 1 more turn to complete the Cottages, so 3 turns maximum each for now) plus the GH Road that is shared with Orleans can be Mined to give our Workers something to do in the meantime.


Rostov
We also need to send down a few Workers to Rostov to start Chopping for The Forbidden Palace
Christian Missionary 10 (1 E of Cologne) should spread in Rostov
I started to build a War Elephant in the City in case it was needed, but we should just delay completing it until after The Forbidden Palace has been completed
Maybe once Christianity is in the City, we can put 1 Chop into the Forge and 2-pop-whip it, and by then we'll hopefully have completed the Cologne Courthouse and the Lyons Courthouse and can start putting Hammers directly into The Forbidden Palace

St. Pete's
Most of the Workers around there should probably help Chopping at Rostov--I'd marked 4 big fat cross Forests at Rostov, but we'll likely also need to Chop some Forests outside of Rostov's big fat cross
However, we'll also want to pre-Chop St. Pete's Forests for The Taj Mahal
So, we could Galley-chain the Workers from Argent to the St. Pete's area (Worker 7 on T123 and Worker 3 after it Chops, probably getting on a Galley on T125)

Hamburg
T122 We can dump Hammers into a Forge
T123 We can 1-pop-whip the Lighthouse
T124 Dump more Hammers into the Forge
T125 We should be able to whip the Forge at some point that makes sense--if we're going to whip down to Size 2, make sure that Cologne can steal the Fish for a turn, otherwise try wait to whip so that we only whip down to Size 3 so that we keep working our 3 Food Resources there each turn

Orleans
The Christian Missionary that is about to be completed is for Lyons
It's probably worth building a Forge there and slow-growing the City without whipping it anymore so that it can eventually work a bunch of GH Mines
If we find that we need more Missionaries, we could probably whip them from somewhere else

Lyons
I'd wait for Christianity to spread there and then whip the Forge, then once the Forge has been completed, whip the Courthouse. If Christianity fails to spread and we whip the Rostov Forge, then we can simply whip Lyons' Courthouse without Organized Religion (it will be a 1-pop-whipping action) so that Rostov will be able to start building The Forbidden Palace on the turn after it completes its Forge

London
After the University, we could probably go back to building the Christian Missionary there while we slowly regrow the City

Aberdeen
T122 We can spread Christianity there this turn (see the Missionary at Elie Ness)
T123 Whip the Lighthouse
T124 Build a Forge and try to get it whipped
There's only a bit of pre-chopping remaining to do around there, including the Fur that hasn't been fully pre-chopped, and then we can goof around by building Mines where there are Roads, etc, killing time until we're ready to Chop into MoM.

We'll need 8 Hammers in the Forge for it to be 3-pop-whippable at Size 6 or else we'll need 46 Hammers in the Forge for it to be 2-pop-whippable at Size 4. I imagine that it will be easier to 3-pop-whip it, since the City has 3 Food Resources and it will grow quickly after we whip its Lighthouse next turn

With 5 Chops, we'd get: 5 * 30 * 2.5 = 150 * 2.5 = 375 H, while MoM is 450 H, so we'd also need to plan some good 2-pop-whipping items; one option is putting 1 or 2 Hammers (not 3 Hammers) into a 40-Hammer Unit (not a Building), such as a Spy--we're going to need a lot of Spies for an Espionage Cultural Victory. Another option is putting 12 or less Hammers into a Catapult. Another option is putting a few Hammers into a Courthouse and 2-pop-whipping it, but we won't get a lot of overflow Hammers that way

As soon as we get MoM, we can launch our 2-Great-Person Golden Age

Moscow
We could probably have some Worker 17 Chop the Forest and STOP at 1 E of St. Pete's, then Chop the Forest at 1 W of Moscow

Other Workers from the St. Pete's area can head to more southern Forests around Rostov

That Forest could go into Moscow's Granary, which could then be 1-pop-whipped, and then after Moscow has completed its Granary, Moscow can steal the Wheat from St. Pete's

Ivory Coast and Gold Coast
After Gold Coast gets its Granary, we should be aiming to whip Horse Archers out of these Cities, to help with conquering Hatty's Cities when we declare war on her

Athens
It will be good to get its Forge, then finish its Library, finish its Axeman City Defender, then build a Market, probably with none of those items being whipped since we don't have a lot of Food available to us in that City


For City builds:
Soon, we'll have Oxford University, and then we'll go to a 100% Science Rate
Soon, we'll Chop and whip-overflow build items at Aberdeen into MoM and once we have completed MoM, we'll launch our 2-Great-Person Golden Age
Soon, before we declare war on Hatty, we'll gift her Jackpot and if she has learned Nationalism, we'll steal Nationalism from her
Putting these facts together means that in our Golden Age, and after we've learned Gunpowder, we'll slip into the Representation Civic, the Nationhood Civic, the Pacifism Civic, and possibly the Caste System Civic and will press the Draft icon in 3 different Cities each turn, to get us 3 Musketeeers per turn. So, Cities won't have to produce a lot of things for much longer. Soon, we'll switch to building Wealth in many of our Cities (maybe in about 15 to 20 turns' time), while other Cities build and whip Spies, with Drafted Muskteers being our main army that marches (hopefully) speedily across of the map. As long as Khan stays reasonably technologically backward, he could be a good target for our Musketeers
During our Golden Age, with Pacifism in use, we'll also be hiring Specialists in Cities where we'll want to get Great People, so I would suggest that we don't overwhip London (London need to whip its University but probably nothing else should get whipped there). St. Pete's will be good for a Great Person or two, and we should probably plan another City to generate one, perhaps Hamburg with its multiple Food Resources and not a lot of other great squares to work, giving us 4 Great People when we need 3 different ones, helping us out in case we get a duplicate Great Person. Great Spies and Great Artists can be helpful for our Espionage Cultural Victory
So, keep that fact in mind--some Forges will still help because they offer +3 Happiness and will increase the Hammers that we receive from building Wealth
Courthouses are probably good build items to eventually get in every City, because they are only a 2-pop-whippable item


Mehmed War
Before we declare war, it would be nice to deal with Mehmed's Horse Archer at 2 S of St. Pete's
I imagine that it would get teleported 1 S of there if we were to declare war, which is an inconvenient location because only HA 10 (in Moscow) can reach that square and then we'd be attacking across of a River and would probably lose the fight
So, I'd suggest that before we declare war on Mehmed, we a Unit to that square that is 3 S of St. Pete's. Worker 10 (at 1 E of St. Pete's) looks to be our best bet, as we can move the Worker there, then declare war on Mehmed, then continue moving the Worker, say to 1 SE G Riv For to Chop into Rostov's Forbidden Palace
With any luck, Mehmed's Horse Archer will instead get teleported to the G Riv For at 1 SE + 2 S of St. Pete's, which would be in range of Axeman 6 in Moscow attacking it, and I think that we'd get good odds when attacking an enemy Horse Archer in a Forest with a Woodsman III Unit, as we'd get a 50% bonus to attack due to the Woodsman III Promotion while the Horse Archer would not get a defensive bonus--our First Strikes wouldn't count, though, so I'm not totally certain if we'll get better odds with Axe 6 or HA 10 (both in Moscow), but you can check the odds and make the kill with the second Unit if our first Unit dies, thereby ending any real threat that Mehmed could pose. I'd rather lose 1 Military Unit than lose a Worker or two when we need to make a lot of Chops in the short term in that area (Chops into The Forbidden Palace at Rostov and then The Taj Mahal at St. Pete's)
Our boats have 3 movement points, and Galleys 8 and 10 at 1 NE + 1 N of Istanbul should get teleported to the north-east, so we should be able to drop off all 10 Units on our Galleys right next to Istanbul, say, on the PH Mine at 1 E of Istanbul
Our War Elephant 1 at 1 SW + 1 W of Edirne should hopefully get teleported 2 S, from where he'll be able to attack that Horse Archer who is guarding a Worker at 1 SW + 1 S of Edirne
Our mounted Units in the Barb Culture can then march 2 NE to Edirne's Horse and we should be able to clobber the 1 Spearman + 2 Archers that were defending the City, plus whatever Unit gets whipped with this overkill stack
On T123, our mounted Units who weren't needed to capture Edirne could join the rest of our stack on the PH Mine at 1 E of Istanbul, while our War Elephant could move to guard Edirne after we capture the City and the Cultural Borders disappear
On T123, we could simply Bombard at Istanbul for a turn
On T124, we can lead the attack on Istanbul with our Catapult and then use whatever Units are appropriate--Horse Archers or whatever we have
We'd capture and keep both Cities
Also, on T124, we'd hope to try to get Marble in trade from Darius; assuming that he'll want 2 Resources, we could trade him Fur and Deer
Once Istanbul falls, we can start sailing our Galleys through Istanbul--note that a Unit which is inside of Istanbul but has already moved could load into a Galley that moves into Istanbul, if such a Unit is one of the Units that we'd like to take toward Hatty
With Mehmed dead, and with Marble in hand, we load up our Galleys and head toward Hatty. If Darius won't trade us Marble, we'll have to go to war with Darius first, capturing Tarsus, as we need Marble for the MoM Chops and for The Taj Mahal Chops, not to mention a possible Herioc Epic eventually being built somewhere (Chopped in Moscow?) and a possible National Epic eventually being built somewhere (we'll need all of the St. Pete's Chops for The Taj Mahal, but maybe we can whip-overflow into the National Epic there or pick a different City in which to build the National Epic)... I wouldn't worry too much about the National Epic in this game, as the game will be over before it sees much use, with The Taj Mahal giving us a 12-turn National Epic in every single City (13 turns if we complete The Taj Mahal during when one of our Golden Ages is already running, as that's how you get a free turn of Golden Age)
 
Question: To Block Mehmed's Horse archer I need to move this turn and next turn, and then declare war. Is that correct?
No, that's not correct. We need to declare war this turn.

I suggest that we use Worker 10 placed at 3 S of St. Pete's before we declare war (i.e. Worker 10 moves 1 S G For Road > 1 SW G Riv Fur For Road Camp > 1 S G Riv Road and waits there, and then when we declare war, the Horse Archer should hopefully teleport to 1 E of there at 1 SE + 2 S of St. Pete's, where it will be in range of both HA 10 and Axe 6 from Moscow.

Worker 10 need not even end its turn on that square and would be able to move again after the war declaration and after Mehmed's Horse Archer has teleported.

We shouldn't need to do any other preparation for the war on Mehmed and thus should declare war this turn.

After moving Worker 10, you can immediately declare war and everything should already be set up to work smoothly for the war. The only trick is... don't ask him for anything, since if we ask him for something, he'll give it to us and we'll be stuck in 10 turns of Peace. If we simply move Worker 10 and then declare war on Mehmed, we won't have to worry.

Who cares that we won't get Drama when Mehmed dies? We'll get Istanbul and access to Marble, which are key goals for us, with the Marble actually being the more important short-term goal of those two goals.

Note that Mehmed's army of Axemen and Spearmen disappeared, so I imagine that it's making an assault on the Barb City. It's theoretically possible that he could capture the Barb City and survive, so just be aware of that possibility.
 
Instead of two HA's in our Egyptian cities, what about at least one spear to help deal with his war chariots.
That's an option, but it's probably easier to first 2-pop-whip Horse Archers and then right before we declare war 1-pop-whip Spearmen, instead of the other way around.


Does it make sense to build the HE now?
It's a low-priority item. We'll need to Chop The Forbidden Palace in Rostov and then The Taj Mahal in St. Pete's (pre-Chopping at St. Pete's until we have both Nationalism and Marble) as much higher priorities.

With Drafting being used to create most of our army, The Heroic Epic will not have much use, but we can still plan to Chop it in Moscow after we're done with The Forbidden Palace and The Taj Mahal Chopping, perhaps to help with building Catapults or Horse Archers.
 
"That's an option, but it's probably easier to first 2-pop-whip Horse Archers and then right before we declare war 1-pop-whip Spearmen, instead of the other way around." Concur, that's better.
 
No, that's not correct. We need to declare war this turn.

I suggest that we use Worker 10 placed at 3 S of St. Pete's before we declare war (i.e. Worker 10 moves 1 S G For Road > 1 SW G Riv Fur For Road Camp > 1 S G Riv Road and waits there, and then when we declare war, the Horse Archer should hopefully teleport to 1 E of there at 1 SE + 2 S of St. Pete's, where it will be in range of both HA 10 and Axe 6 from Moscow.

Worker 10 need not even end its turn on that square and would be able to move again after the war declaration and after Mehmed's Horse Archer has teleported.

We shouldn't need to do any other preparation for the war on Mehmed and thus should declare war this turn.

After moving Worker 10, you can immediately declare war and everything should already be set up to work smoothly for the war. The only trick is... don't ask him for anything, since if we ask him for something, he'll give it to us and we'll be stuck in 10 turns of Peace. If we simply move Worker 10 and then declare war on Mehmed, we won't have to worry.

Who cares that we won't get Drama when Mehmed dies? We'll get Istanbul and access to Marble, which are key goals for us, with the Marble actually being the more important short-term goal of those two goals.

Note that Mehmed's army of Axemen and Spearmen disappeared, so I imagine that it's making an assault on the Barb City. It's theoretically possible that he could capture the Barb City and survive, so just be aware of that possibility.
:facepalm: I only looked at the Catapults and never considered the worker.
If Mehmed does theoretically capture the barb city, his sod will theoretically be decimated, and it will be theoretically possible for us to take the barb city from him ;)
 
T122, 175AD
Research rate 0%; Espionage rate 0% on Hatty

Paris and XO Cognac swap Copper for Cottage
Christianity spreads to Aberdeen.
Paris starts a missionary.

I screw up in Aberdeen. I thought I saw Forest needed 2 cops so I chopped it only to find out it needed 1 Chop :( I put Chop into a Forge.

We Declare War on Mehmed.
Our Woodsman III makes short work of the Horse Archer that was teleported to the southwest of Moscow.
Our Elephant kills a Horse Archer, captures a Worker, and meets Gandhi.
Axeman jumps off a galley and captures a Worker 1 N of Edirne

Between Turns: Joao wants Open Borders, I respectfully decline.
Mehmed made peace with Stalin.

T123, 200AD

Orleans Missionary > Forge
Jackpot Spy > Spy

At Edirne: Chariot killed by Spearman. HA retreats from Spearman. Mehmed's Spearman is not yet injured. Horse Archer killed by Spear but severely injures spear. Horse Archer killed by Archer. Zhuge killed by Archer. Horse Archer kills Archer. Chariot killed by Archer. Chariot kills Archer. Axeman kills Spearman and captures Edirne.

Catapult Bombards Istanbul.

Paris builds Christian Temple.
XO Cognac switches to Market.
Orleans starts Forge.

Between Turns: Lief Ericson sinks Mehmed’s galley
Barbarian galley sighted north of Aberdeen.
Hatty completes Schwedagon Paya.

T124, 225AD

Cologne Courthouse > Horse Archer

Battle for Istanbul: Catapult attacks swordman Cat dies hurting the 3 defenders.
Mehmed gets a great general in Istanbul. Chariot dies fighting swordsman. Chariot dies vs Archer. Our Axeman pulls out an upset victory killing an axeman. Horse Archer kills archer. Axeman kills swordsman we capture Istanbul.
Istanbul has a Granary, Lighthouse, Academy and Colosseum.

The Ottoman Civilization has been destroyed.

Christianity is spread in Lyons.

The 6 Universities are built.

Between Turns: Barbarian galley destroys netted fish north of Aberdeen.
Joao has completed the Colossus.

T125, 250AD

Ruby Bay starts work on a Trireme.
Citizens of Yar want to join Russian empire. I tell them no.
Christianity spreads to Rostov.
Oxford University is built in Paris using 2 Chops.

Trade Deer and Fur to Darius for Marble.


Stopped with many troops and workers not moved (some of the troops by Istanbul may be fortified).

The Logs:
Session Turn Log from 175 AD to 250 AD: Has not been included since Post was to long. I have a copy if needed.
Autolog:
Spoiler :
Turn 122/500 (175 AD) [26-Aug-2016 12:04:12]
Paris begins: University (7 turns)
Christianity has spread: Aberdeen
Paris begins: Christian Missionary (3 turns)
Napoleon REAL (France) declares war on Mehmed II (Ottomans)
While attacking, Axeman 6 (Hamburg) decimates Ottoman Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 67.4%)
While attacking in French territory at Moscow, Axeman 6 (Hamburg) (4.05/5) defeats Ottoman Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 67.4%)
While attacking, War Elephant 1 (Rostov) decimates Ottoman Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 98.9%)
While attacking in the wild near Istanbul, War Elephant 1 (Rostov) (5.76/8) defeats Ottoman Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 98.9%)
Player contact made: Gandhi of India
While attacking in Ottoman territory near Istanbul, Axeman 8 (Hamburg) (5.00/5) defeats Ottoman Worker (Prob Victory: 98.9%)
Aberdeen begins: Forge (120 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
100% Gold: 104 per turn, 502 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Jackpot
A Hamlet was built near Paris
Orleans grows to size 3
Orleans finishes: Christian Missionary
Argent grows to size 7
Hamburg grows to size 5
Ruby Bay grows to size 6
Ivory Coast grows to size 3
St. Pete grows to size 5
Jackpot finishes: Spy
Aberdeen grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Mehmed II (Ottomans) and Stalin (Russia) have signed a peace treaty
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Frederick (Germany), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Mehmed II (Ottomans) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Mehmed II (Ottomans) towards Stalin (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Stalin (Russia) towards Mehmed II (Ottomans), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 123/500 (200 AD) [26-Aug-2016 14:36:05]
Diplomacy: Joao II (Portugal) offers to trade Open Borders to Napoleon REAL (France) for Open Borders
Diplomacy: Napoleon REAL (France) rejects trade of Open Borders to Joao II (Portugal) for Open Borders
Orleans begins: Forge (18 turns)
Jackpot begins: Spy (40 turns)
While attacking, Chariot 9 (Lyons) escapes from Ottoman Spearman (Prob Victory: 0.1%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Chariot 9 (Lyons) loses to Ottoman Spearman (4.00/4) (Prob Victory: 0.1%)
While attacking, Horse Archer 4 (Paris) escapes from Ottoman Spearman (Prob Victory: 21.9%)
While attacking, Horse Archer 8 (Orleans) escapes from Ottoman Spearman (Prob Victory: 11.2%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Horse Archer 8 (Orleans) loses to Ottoman Spearman (0.16/4) (Prob Victory: 11.2%)
While attacking, Horse Archer 11 (Orleans) escapes from Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 65.9%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Horse Archer 11 (Orleans) loses to Ottoman Archer (1.80/3) (Prob Victory: 65.9%)
While attacking, Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) escapes from Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 31.5%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Zhuge Liang loses to Ottoman Archer (2.46/3) (Prob Victory: 31.5%)
While attacking, Horse Archer 12 (York) decimates Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 55.6%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Horse Archer 12 (York) (3.60/6) defeats Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 55.6%)
While attacking, Chariot 8 (Paris) escapes from Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 70.2%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Chariot 8 (Paris) loses to Ottoman Archer (1.23/3) (Prob Victory: 70.2%)
While attacking, Chariot 13 (Paris) decimates Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 95.5%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Chariot 13 (Paris) (3.24/4) defeats Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 95.5%)
While attacking, Axeman 8 (Hamburg) decimates Ottoman Spearman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Edirne, Axeman 8 (Hamburg) (5.00/5) defeats Ottoman Spearman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Islam has spread: Edirne
Captured Edirne (Mehmed II)
Edirne begins: Islamic Monastery (61 turns)
Axeman 6 (Hamburg) promoted: Combat I
Paris begins: Christian Temple (1 turns)
XO Cognac begins: Market (11 turns)
Argent begins: Moai Statues (8 turns)
Hamburg begins: Lighthouse (22 turns)
Aberdeen begins: Lighthouse (15 turns)
War Elephant 1 (Rostov) promoted: Combat II
A Mine was built near Orleans
A Mine was built near Aberdeen

Turn 123/500 (200 AD) [26-Aug-2016 16:28:11]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 12 per turn
100% Gold: 112 per turn, 737 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 10
Paris finishes: Christian Temple
XO Cognac grows to size 8
A Hamlet was built near Paris
Lyons grows to size 8
Hamburg grows to size 5
Hamburg finishes: Lighthouse
Cologne grows to size 3
Cologne finishes: Courthouse
Gold Coast finishes: Granary
St. Pete grows to size 6
Rostov grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
While defending in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Leif Erikson (1.28/2) defeats Ottoman Galley (Prob Victory: 72.8%)
Attitude Change: Gandhi (India) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Mehmed II (Ottomans) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan (Mongolia) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Joao II (Portugal) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 124/500 (225 AD) [26-Aug-2016 16:28:44]
Cologne begins: Horse Archer (50 turns)
While attacking, Catapult 9 (Argent) escapes from Ottoman Swordsman (Prob Victory: 0.7%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Catapult 9 (Argent) loses to Ottoman Swordsman (5.28/6) (Prob Victory: 0.7%)
While attacking, Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) escapes from Ottoman Swordsman (Prob Victory: 1.1%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) loses to Ottoman Swordsman (3.72/6) (Prob Victory: 1.1%)
While attacking, Chariot 17 (Orleans) escapes from Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 1.3%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Chariot 17 (Orleans) loses to Ottoman Archer (1.47/3) (Prob Victory: 1.3%)
While attacking, Chariot 22 (Cologne) escapes from Ottoman Swordsman (Prob Victory: 4.2%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Chariot 22 (Cologne) loses to Ottoman Swordsman (3.72/6) (Prob Victory: 4.2%)
While attacking, Axeman 13 (Cologne) decimates Ottoman Axeman (Prob Victory: 2.2%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Axeman 13 (Cologne) (0.80/5) defeats Ottoman Axeman (Prob Victory: 2.2%)
While attacking, Chariot 18 (Cologne) escapes from Ottoman Swordsman (Prob Victory: 4.2%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Chariot 18 (Cologne) loses to Ottoman Swordsman (0.84/6) (Prob Victory: 4.2%)
While attacking, Horse Archer 9 (Paris) decimates Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 97.0%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Horse Archer 9 (Paris) (4.92/6) defeats Ottoman Archer (Prob Victory: 97.0%)
While attacking, Axeman 4 (Paris) decimates Ottoman Swordsman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Ottoman territory at Istanbul, Axeman 4 (Paris) (5.00/5) defeats Ottoman Swordsman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Islam has spread: Istanbul
Captured Istanbul (Mehmed II)
Ottoman Empire has been eliminated
Istanbul begins: Horse Archer (51 turns)
Paris begins: University (6 turns)
XO Cognac begins: University (9 turns)
Christianity has spread: Lyons
London begins: Christian Missionary (2 turns)
London begins: University (1 turns)
Argent begins: University (6 turns)
A Farm was built near Ivory Coast
Horse Archer 12 (York) promoted: Shock

Turn 124/500 (225 AD) [26-Aug-2016 18:15:36]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 14 per turn
100% Gold: 94 per turn, 1011 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 8
Paris finishes: University
XO Cognac finishes: University
Orleans grows to size 4
Lyons finishes: Forge
London grows to size 4
London finishes: University
Argent grows to size 5
Argent finishes: University
Ruby Bay grows to size 4
Ruby Bay finishes: University
Athens finishes: Forge
Ivory Coast grows to size 4
St. Pete grows to size 5
St. Pete's borders expand
St. Pete finishes: University
Aberdeen grows to size 3
Aberdeen finishes: Lighthouse

Other Player Actions:
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Aberdeen
A Fishing Boats near Aberdeen was destroyed by Barbarian Galley
Attitude Change: Frederick (Germany) towards Darius I (Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan (Mongolia) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Joao II (Portugal) towards Churchill (England), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Mao Zedong (China) towards Kublai Khan (Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 125/500 (250 AD) [26-Aug-2016 18:15:59]
Ruby Bay begins: Galley (8 turns)
Ruby Bay begins: Trireme (8 turns)
St. Pete begins: Courthouse (24 turns)
Axeman 4 (Paris) promoted: Combat III
Horse Archer 9 (Paris) promoted: Combat IV
Axeman 13 (Cologne) promoted: Combat I
Axeman 13 (Cologne) promoted: Combat II
Christianity has spread: Rostov
A Mine was built near Aberdeen
Paris begins: Oxford University (12 turns)
A Cottage was built near Paris
Athens begins: Library (1 turns)


The Save.
 
Paris starts a missionary.
Oops. In my haste, I must have typed Missionary instead of Monastery, which we'd already put some Hammers into. But, it seems that we managed to get way more than enough Hammers.

Ugh, that Barb Galley in northern England is going to cause us trouble... I'd suggest that London build a Work Boat before the Missionary to replace the Pillaged Fish square.

Let's hope that we'll still be able to get MoM before an AI builds it.


Jackpot Spy > Spy
At some point soon, we're going to need more Cities building Spies. It's easy enough to collect a lot of EPs at the end of the game, but it's hard to build a lot of Spies within a short period of time--we'll need about 150 Spies or less--if we perform some Spread Culture Missions before the end of the game, it could be less.

One thought that I had was that we'd have 3 different AIs... Churchill, maybe Frederick, maybe Hatty... each one has 1 City of their own and then we gift them one of Macau, Jackpot, or XO Cognac when it has about 50 Spies inside of the City and we have enough EPs collected against that AI. Spread Culture Missions a lot and the Demand the City back--if the AI refuses the Demand, declare war and capture the City.

I suggest 3 AIs because then we can make 3 Demands, with only 1 City being allowed to be received per Demand.

The alternative is to spam Islam and go for a Religious Victory, but then we need to spread it enough to win, but not too much--with the deadline looming, it'll probably be easier to mess up the Religious Victory percentages than it will be to mess up the Spread Culture Missions. If you get too many Religious Victory votes, you cannot win the game (although you can gift away Cities to a voting buddy, again, figuring out how many to gift gets a bit complicated, and you might end up getting a voting rival instead of a voting buddy--a Religious Victory is not a Victory Condition that's easy to plan at the last minute).


At Edirne
That battle was quite tough, so great job in capturing the City! :goodjob:


sinks Mehmed’s galley
Very nice!



Hatty completes Schwedagon Paya.
She has 11 turns until she gets her next Great Person, so I don't foresee her being able to get a Great Engineer for The Taj Mahal.


we capture Istanbul.
Istanbul has a Granary, Lighthouse, Academy and Colosseum.
Great news and finally some great luck with capturing Buildings! :cool:


Joao has completed the Colossus.
After we take some of Hatty's Cities, he'll probably have to die.

The tricky part will be going up against Longbowmen and Macemen, so we might have to wait for Muskets and more Catapults to take Joao down efficiently. I'd built a Road through Macau's Culture toward Joao just in case we end up sending some troops via land toward Joao.


I don't have a lot of time to help with planning right now.

One important item: dealing with the Barb Galley at Aberdeen, growing the City large enough to 2-pop-whip the Forge, then planning some items to be 2-pop-whipped where we put 2 or less Hammers into a Spy or 12 or less Hammers into a Catapult, then we 2-pop-whip such a build item and overflow the Hammers into MoM. Once we have a Forge in Aberdeen, we can start putting Chops directly into MoM.

A similarly-important item: doing much the same at Rostov: whip that Forge possibly with the help one 1 Forest Chop, start building The Forbidden Palace, and then try to 2-pop-whip Units that can overflow a lot Hammers into The Forbidden Palace, such as a Catapult with 12 or less Hammers in it, and that War Elephant (the War Elephant won't give a lot of overflow Hammers, but it will at least give a few--I'd probably plan to whip a Catapult before the War Elephant, though, just to try to get The Forbidden Palace getting more Hammers into it as soon as we can--The Forbidden Palace is going to help drag back our economy from the trenches).

After Oxford has been completed, 100% Research on Gunpowder.

York can build a Spy this turn and 2-pop-whip it next turn, then use the overflow Hammers to 1-pop-whip its Granary, leaving the Spy in York.

Joao is Friendly toward us, so we might not even need Spies in York (to steal techs from Joao, since we can simply trade techs from a Friendly Joao), but the Spies in York can be our backup option in case Joao asks us to do something that we don't want to do and thus we anger him in the short term.

Once Joao has selected a tech after Machinery, we can trade him Education to get Feudalism and Machinery, throwing in Literature if it's also needed.

Before we declare war on Hatty, we'll gift her Jackpot and steal Nationalism and possibly Music from her. A Spy that we whip in Jackpot next turn might be better off standing on a Road outside of Jackpot, since it won't get enough Stationary Bonus to be of use, but it will reduce the odds of success of the very last Spy trying to steal Nationalism if we keep failing to steal Nationalism up until our very last Spy in Jackpot. We already have more than enough EPs to steal Nationalism, so we just need Hatty to complete research on Nationalism.

Once we have Nationalism, we can simply start Chopping into The Taj Mahal at St. Pete's instead of pre-Chopping there.
 
Another thought is that we can try to get a few Religions spread in Paris. We will probably only be in Organized Religion for a short time window, so we may not be able to get many Religions spread there, but, for example, Lyons could build a Taoist Missionary. Paris should complete its Monastery/Monasteries before its started Missionary, for example, as each Monastery there will give us a decent boost in Flasks, and we won't be obsoleting Monasteries in this game.
 
Suggestions and questions:

Barracks after granary in Moscow. Sure would like to finish chopping the forested grass hill 1W soon to facilitate granary. Also like to borrow St. Pete wheat for a few turns after granary built.

Galley8 transfers cats to galley9 (which heads to Egypt) and moves 1E to the coast 2NW of Edirne to pick up WE next turn; then, move another galley to the fish 3 SE of Rostock to pick up another WE, which needs to move 2SE this turn. Both galleys sail to 1NE of Istan next turn, and the Rostock WE can board the Edirne galley which sails into Istan and chains both WEs onto another galley left there.

While waiting for Gunpowder and muskets, we need more cats.

Engineering as soon as we have Machinery for the movement on this horizontally extended map, plus trebs. (Unless Dhoom is confident the AI will research it for us quickly.)

Attack Germany last, as long as we can use his roads.

Spear next in Ivory coast. (Hats has Construction and Ivory. She has no metals. Any way to stop the ivory trade between India and Egypt?)

First galley to Thebes (leaving this turn) can sail through city and into Persian waters, then land unit on the Egyptian horses to pillage the turn we declare war. (Where might she have war chariots hiding? I saw one when I was playing earlier.)

Wine is available from Darius.

Are we sure the grass sugar hill east of Nanjing is the terminal point for our proposed RxR?

Is there a link to this spy-induced victory condition Dhoom refers to?

GA next turn, or do we wait to build the MM?

EP points on?
 
Galley8 transfers cats to galley9 (which heads to Egypt) and moves 1E to the coast 2NW of Edirne to pick up WE next turn; then, move another galley to the fish 3 SE of Rostock to pick up another WE, which needs to move 2SE this turn. Both galleys sail to 1NE of Istan next turn, and the Rostock WE can board the Edirne galley which sails into Istan and chains both WEs onto another galley left there.
With Hatty about to finish her tech in 2 turns' time, we don't really even need to delay fighting her, so I'd suggest taking whatever 10 Units we can muster for an initial assault on Thebes. There's no time to heal our Leif Galley or even to chain Units if we can find a way to get 10 Units onto Galleys and just start sailing.

As long as Hatty learns Nationalism, then we can gift her Jackpot, steal techs, and then declare war on her. After Nationalism, she is very likely to go for Feudalism, so we're on a tight timeline to have just about any type of Unit ready--10 Units of any type should be sufficient to take her capital. If we bring any Catapults, we land first; if we don't bring Catapults, we can considering just amphibiously assaulting Thebes.

The sooner that we take down her Cities after she learns Nationalism, the less chance that she'll have of fielding Longbowmen. Note that she is getting Ivory in trade, so she could build War Elephants after the war begins, but once Thebes falls, she won't have a lot production power.

After dropping off 10 Units, then we could probably set up 2 concurrent Galley chains to collect the remaining Units.


While waiting for Gunpowder and muskets, we need more cats.
Here's a thought: Novgorod and Orenburg won't be too hard to capture, and Novgorod should be within gifting distance of Kublai.

So, we capture Novgorod and Orenburg, and probably capture Katty and eliminate Churchill.

Then, we gift 4 Cities, i.e. Novgorod, Orenburg, Katty, and Yar to Kublai on the same turn as each other and with Units near to those Cities so that we can recapture them.

If Kublai won't accept Cities, we gift him Gold per Turn until he feels that he can economically afford to keep those Cities.

Then, we declare war on Kublai and recapture those 4 Cities, probably just razing Orenburg and Katty as being junk Cities.

Doing so will give us 40 War Success with Kublai. We simply wait a few turns, don't lose any battles against Kublai, and possibly push forward into his lands to make a couple of more kills, and then Kublai should Capitulate to us and we'll have our Vassal.

Then, we simply march our Units through Kublai's territory and take down Mao.


Engineering as soon as we have Machinery for the movement on this horizontally extended map, plus trebs.
Engineering sounds really wise, although the game shouldn't last too much longer, so I don't know how many Trebs we'll be able to build.

We'd presumably wait to get Machinery from Joao, though, so we wouldn't want to over-tech after learning Gunpowder, as I think that Machinery blocks all further tech progress; let's just hope that Joao stays Friendly toward us and that Joao doesn't delay when he learns Machinery.


Attack Germany last, as long as we can use his roads.
That's fine by me.


Any way to stop the ivory trade between India and Egypt?)
Not that I can see. Their Resource trade hasn't been going no long enough for it to be cancelable by request.


First galley to Thebes (leaving this turn) can sail through city and into Persian waters, then land unit on the Egyptian horses to pillage the turn we declare war. (Where might she have war chariots hiding? I saw one when I was playing earlier.)
I think that you mean into Saladin's Culture, but we probably don't have time to do so.

If it takes her, say, 3 turns to self-tech Feudalism, every turn between her learning Nationalism and us delaying when we declare war on Hatty will potentially mean a lot of upgraded Longbowmen, which are a lot harder to take down than mounted Units.


Are we sure the grass sugar hill east of Nanjing is the terminal point for our proposed RxR?
Mao would give us his World Map and 40 Gold for Literature, so we could make that trade.

On that note, please DO NOT sell our World Map to anyone. AIs play much better at warring when they have mapped out our Cities. The small amount of Gold that we could get would be better obtained by simply selling techs if we find that we need the Gold, although I'd probably wait on liberal tech selling for the short term, as we have lot of Gold saved up.


Is there a link to this spy-induced victory condition Dhoom refers to?
Here's where we talked about it in the GOTM forums:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503363
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=499578

Here's a link from Noble Zarkon's signature where they talk about advanced items related to the strategy:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=562699

There are better links on the subject, but those should give you a taste.

Basically, we'll be using a Spy's Spread Culture Espionage Mission repeatedly with "compound interest" except that it's "compound Culture."


GA next turn, or do we wait to build the MM?
That's an idea that I hadn't considered--missing out on 4 turns of Golden Age just to get it started sooner, but our Cities aren't really ready to hire Specialists yet, and we don't have either Nationalism or The Pyramids yet, so we can't really switch to useful Civics yet, so I'd hold off on the Golden Age for a bit longer, but if that Barb Galley has messed up Aberdeen, we could consider launching the first Golden Age without waiting for MoM. So, on that note, we shouldn't be whipping London, XO Cognac, or St. Pete's, as those Cities are the Cities that are likely to be generating our Great People, and thus it would also help to get a Farm or two at London.


EP points on?
Hatty is fine until we have Nationalism and possibly also have Music.

Joao is probably a bad target as we're likely to simply eliminate him.

We can either choose to gift Moscow (so, forget the Barracks) or gift Katty to Kublai, meaning eliminating Churchill, so Churchill would be a bad target if we were going to eliminate him.

If we're going to delay attacking Frederick, he'll also be a bad target.

If we're going to eliminate Stalin, which we probably won't do initially since Smolensk is far out of the way, but we'll need to capture Smolensk or own a City near to there for our Railroad, so Stalin may die and thus he would be a bad target.

All of the other AIs probably won't be good recipients for gift Cities, so I guess we stick with Hatty for now.

On that note, it would really help to keep Churchill and Stalin alive for an Espionage Cultural Victory, each of them staying alive with Katty and Smolensk, so maybe we should just forget the Barracks in Moscow and plan to gift the City to Kublai and then retake it from him--the Granary will have a good chance to survive, but the Barracks would almost certainly get destroyed when we recaptured the City from him.

It's nice that Hatty has put Culture into Macau, but we'll have cheaper Espionage Missions if we capture Macau and then later gift it to one of Stalin or Churchill, since Hatty has Culture in there, while Stalin and Churchill do not have Culture in there, meaning that we could get the full "City Culture" Espionage discount against Stalin or Churchill in Macau but we could not get it against Hatty, and it's a pretty significant discount, probably valued at a cost similar to learning one of the last few techs that we'll need to learn.
 
Hatty is trading Fish to Gandhi, and Hatty has a ton of Fish Resources, so it's

To get Hatty to attack someone, she would have to be Pleased toward us (currently only Annoyed) and she would have to be Cautious toward that someone (instead of Pleased toward Gandhi), so no go there
To get Gandhi to attack someone, he would have to be Friendly toward us (currently only Cautious) and he would have to be Annoyed toward that someone (instead of Pleased toward Hatty), so no go there
To get Saladin (who is between the two of them) to attack someone, he would have to be Pleased toward us (currently only Cautious and we have maxed out our Fair and Forthright Trading with him) and he would have to be Annoyed toward that someone (Furious toward Gandhi works, but Pleased toward Hatty doesn't work)

If we were to switch to Islam (which would be a waste of Organized Religion or Pacifism for 5 turns), we should get +5 with Saladin and be able to get him up to Pleased in order to have him be willing to declare war on Gandhi, but then Saladin would have to feel strong enough to attack Gandhi.

If we were at war with Hatty, and Saladin were at war with Gandhi, it might be that the trade would get cut off, but I'm not certain, since Trade Networks can go in two directions, so I'm not totally clear on how they work... it could be something tricky such as Hatty having a route to Gandhi via Saladin -> Darius -> Gandhi and Gandhi having a route to Hatty via -> Darius -> Stalin -> us -> Joao -> Hatty

I can't think of any other way to get them to stop trading with each other that would be practical for us to pull off, so we'll just have to plan to hit Hatty soon and hit her hard, just after she learns Nationalism.


Trading
We could gift Polytheism to Churchill (he'll learn it in 1 turn and isn't anyone's Worst Enemy)
We could get 10 Gold from Stalin <-> Metal Casting (he'll learn it in 1 turn and isn't anyone's Worst Enemy)


Paris
After Oxford, do we want to try to build a Wonder? Bureaucracy offers 30 * 2.5 = 75 Hammers and 24 * 2.5 = 60 Hammers for the two remaining Chops; we also make 12 * 2.5 = 30 Hammers per turn
We could, say, build MoM here and put The Parthenon in Aberdeen, followed by building Monasteries
We pre-Chop the Paris Deer and then finish the Chops on the Paris Deer and Fur once Paris has this many Hammers in MoM:
Cost of MoM minus 150 from Chops minus 60 from 2 turns of raw Hammers


XO Cognac building a Market looks good, although I wouldn't whip it, and we may end up either running Caste System for Merchants or even just staying in Slavery and running a real mixup of Specialists

Lyons could build a Taoist Missionary for Paris after its Courthouse; Cities like this one should try to be at Size 6 or higher so that they can Draft a Musketman
I'd probably suggest switching the Lyons Farm to a Cottage and then next turn working the other Cottage

London can build a Work Boat for Aberdeen before its Missionary

Argent could slow-build a Settler after Moai, followed by a Barracks; this location may end up being a better Heroic Epic location than Moscow

Hamburg
This City is a tough one--it has enough Food to grow quite quickly, but if we're in Slavery, we won't be able to hire a lot of Specialists , while if we're going to be in Slavery, we should probably whip a Courthouse at Size 5 and then whip a Library at Size 5 so that we'll have Specialist slots

Yar could build a Worker and then a Chariot once our Cultural Borders expand
 
I like the idea of MOM in Paris and Parthenon in Aberdeen What if we postpone the last 2 chops in Paris until the second turn of the Golden Age to get the bonus golden age turn?

I am going to play the balance of T125 and start T126.
Will do the 2 trades mentioned above.
I will be moving troops (both by sea and land) toward Thebes.
 
My math was bad, because I forgot about Bureaucracy: 30 Hammers * 3.0 = 90 final Hammers

Worker 12 (1 SE + 1 E of Paris) should cancel its movement... in general, I suggest that we don't leave Units on goto missions for their movement points on future turns, since we might accidentally move such a Unit when looking at a game

If we move 3 Workers to Paris' Deer and one Worker to the G For at 1 SW + 2 S of Paris next turn, while having other Workers planning to Chop the 1 NE G For and the Fur For, we could potentially complete MoM in the span of 2 turns--I'm not sure if we'll quite have enough Hammers, but unless someone wants to do the math, we can at least aim for it

The nice part about Chopping the Deer and the Fur is that we'd get +1 Commerce on those squares from taking the Forests off of the Rivers, so while we'd miss out on base Hammers, we'd get more base Commerce, which is also nice in our Oxford City

If Macau goes into City Revolt, we could also Chop its Forest since that Forest has been pre-Roaded and has been pre-Chopped

For example, Worker 13 (on the GH Wine) could move to the Deer

This turn, we could probably focus even more on Hammers, switching two Cottages to a G For and an Engineer, unless someone wants to do the math


We can't postpone Chops on MoM until after the Golden Age. We want MoM before our Golden Age so that we get 4 more turns of Golden Age. That is, unless we think that we can win the game in 8 + 12 + 12 turns in which case we don't need MoM before our Golden Age, but I'm doubtful of that.

Don't forget about the Literature to Mao trade for his Gold and World Map


We can Chop the G For next turn when we overflow Hammers into MoM

Before completing the Chops on the following turn, we can calculate whether we'd have enough Hammers from our Chops and if we wouldn't, we could delay Chopping for a turn and instead select the Monastery (after 1 turn of putting Hammers into MoM) and 1-pop-whip the Monastery to get a few more overflow Hammers, getting MoM hopefully within the span of 3 turns

The turn when the game says that we built MoM is when we launch our Golden Age, for 4 extra Golden Age turns


We can also start building a Road from Istanbul up toward Russia with our captured Worker, if that wasn't already the plan


I'm not sure of the exact timing of how it will work, but if we get Nationalism and capture Thebes very soon thereafter, we could either slip into Representation for 5 turns without Nationhood or else we could wait to switch Civics until we can slip into both Civics.

It will also help to plan whipping of Buildings to occur on the last turn of being in Organized Religion, possibly whipping multiple build items on that same turn, whipping while in Organized Religion, then only switching Civics after having whipped Buildings, when we slip into Pacifism along with whatever other Civics out of Representation and Nationhood that we slip into at that time.

Later down the road, when we decide that we have enough Musketeers and we switch back into Bureaucracy, we'll get 1 extra turn where we can Draft while also getting Bureaucracy's benefit on that turn, as long as we remember to Draft before switching back into Bureaucracy, where it will be Bureaucracy that will help to power our way through the techs and to help us to collect EPs for our Cultural Espionage Victory.


Of course, an alternative is still to win via Apostolic Palace Victory after having captured and kept Hatty's Islamic Cities, but it won't be easy to do correctly, as we'd likely be facing against Saladin and we'd have to somehow get Islam well spread to a voting buddy... potentially, we'd spread Christianity to Kublai and then spread some Islam to Kublai... people say that your Vassals will always vote for you, but I'm not sure if that's totally true if that AI doesn't like you sufficiently (we'd need to test if a Vassal who doesn't like you can actually vote for you)... if a Vassal will always vote for you, we'd just need to make sure that Kublai doesn't get enough Cities with Islam to run it as his own State Religion, and then him having several Islamic Cities could be one way to win the game, again as long as each surviving AI has an Islamic City... but, the other challenging part is that the timing of the voting cycles matters a lot, while for an Espionage Cultural Victory, it's only a matter of having enough Spies and enough EPs to get the job done and then you can win on the turn of your choice, so I think that I'd still favour an Espionage Cultural Victory when the timing of playing is very rushed.
 
if we don't bring Catapults, we can considering just amphibiously assaulting Thebes. Have cats loaded and must bring them to have any chance of enough units remaining to defend Thebes against war chariots. Don't like this rushed approach. Don't think we'll be able to go after other cities before she has LB regardless, because it will be at least 5 turns after DOW before we can get reinforcements back to Egypt to continue the attack. Unless there's good reason to think she will start producing units as soon as she is in Nationalism even if not at war, I'd prefer to bring WEs and dealwith the delay problems.

Engineering sounds really wise, although the game shouldn't last too much longer, so I don't know how many Trebs we'll be able to build. Follow that.

Not that I can see. Their Resource trade hasn't been going no long enough for it to be cancelable by request. Afraid of that. More reason to produce spear in IC.

I think that you mean into Saladin's Culture Yes, but we probably don't have time to do so. That may be true, but we can make that decision when we get there.


Here's where we talked about it in the GOTM forums:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=503363
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=499578

Here's a link from Noble Zarkon's signature where they talk about advanced items related to the strategy:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=562699

Basically, we'll be using a Spy's Spread Culture Espionage Mission repeatedly with "compound interest" except that it's "compound Culture." Thanks, I'll see if I can fathom it.



That's an idea that I hadn't considered--missing out on 4 turns of Golden Age just to get it started sooner, Wasn't advocating, just clarifying.

If we're going to eliminate Stalin, which we probably won't do initially since Smolensk is far out of the way, but we'll need to capture Smolensk or own a City near to there for our Railroad, so Stalin may die and thus he would be a bad target. What about enough to see what units are in his cities?
.

Joe, how long are you willing to continue the play? Dhoom, when are you going to be available to play again? I will have time tomorrow, but not sure after that. We don't need any downtime. May have a chance to win if we can finish.
 
Dhoom, when are you going to be available to play again?
Evenings on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday could be available times for me, although I wouldn't be likely to play every one of those days.

I'm not concerned that we won't finish--we will finish. Where I am concerned is that I can't provide fun-to-read write-ups since I can't spend the time to make pictures of what happens, and I'm also not able to do a lot of planning, so we'll have to expect a lot of cases where we'll think of something after the fact--we didn't get Open Borders with Stalin before we eliminated Mehmed, for example, but I don't think that it will matter as we have 4 Cities in England (so we don't need his Trade Routes), and we can just take Stalin's Cities to make Kublai our Vassal (so we don't need to walk through his lands)--I use that example because it's an item that we all missed in the final version of the plan for a case that doesn't really matter, but there are likely to be items that will matter that we'll end up missing by a turn or two here or there, and those missed turns add up to a later in-game finish date. For example, if I'd had time to do the math properly for Oxford, we might have been able to get MoM in Paris, but I was thinking that we'd have needed all of the Forests for Oxford. We can still get MoM in Paris, so it may be no harm done, but it's possible that we may have sped it up a bit with more time to plan, and thus we could have started our chain of Golden Ages sooner, which might matter for the final finishing date.


What about enough to see what units are in his cities?
We can consider spending Commerce on EPs after we have learned Gunpowder, but I'd only spend more EPs on Stalin if we're agreed that we'll keep him alive by leaving him Smolensk, which probably means gifting Moscow to Kublai once we have 3 other Cities to gift to Kublai and thus putting The Heroic Epic elsewhere, such as in Argent, where it at least can make Moai extra effective.


More reason to produce spear in IC.
I agree with producing Units quickly in our Egypt Cities, which probably means 1-pop-whipping Spearmen + Chariots.


As for the war with Egypt, we do have to hold Thebes in order to get into Representation and stay in Representation, but other Cities that we capture theoretically could be gifted to Churchill temporarily if we find that we would otherwise lose them to Hatty.

Other Cities would be nice to capture, but the initial goal is to capture and hold Thebes so that we can get into Representation. From there, we could theoretically send troops to Alexandria or we could get reinforcements--other than owning Thebes, none of Hatty's Cities really matter and would just be nice to have, especially if we can capture those Cities before she gets Feudalism for Longbowmen.
 
"
As for the war with Egypt, we do have to hold Thebes in order to get into Representation and stay in Representation, but other Cities that we capture theoretically could be gifted to Churchill temporarily if we find that we would otherwise lose them to Hatty." If that's the case, then we should try to save a chariot to pillage roads to Thebes.
 
No battles, mostly it was moving workers and adjusting city builds. Not much to report.
I played till T127 since I saw Hatty was going to finish Nationalism.

T125, 250AD (continued)
Research rate 0%; Espionage rate 0% on Hatty

Gift Polytheism to Churchill.
Trade Metal Casting to Stalin for 10 gold.

T126, 275AD
Research rate 100% Gunpowder in 4
Espionage rate 0% on Hatty

Paris finishes Oxford. Starts on MOM.
Ruby Bay whips a Trireme.
Rostov whips a Forge.

Our Black Sea troop transports are sailing toward Thebes.
Some of our troops are marching through barbarian territory toward Thebes.

Between Turns: Peace Treaty with Frederick is canceled.
Egypt War Chariot moves toward Thebes.

We get a couple of advisory messages about our leaving cities undefended.
Churchill converts to Taoism

Hatty has finished Nationalism. :D

T127, 300AD
Research rate 100% Gunpowder in 3
Espionage rate 0% on Hatty

Argent finishes Moai Statues starts Barracks (can complete next turn and grow to size 8 by switching Whale to GH mine). Hamburg receives some default gold. :)

Rostov starts building the Forbidden Palace.

Cologne finishes Horse Archer. Horse Archer moves toward Macau.

Our Newly Commissioned Trireme sinks the barbarian galley.

Here are the logs:
Spoiler :
Session Turn Log from 250 AD to 300 AD:

Turn 125, 250 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Aberdeen!
Turn 125, 250 AD: Paris has grown to size 8.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Paris can hurry Christian Missionary for 1&#8692; with 22&#8484; overflow, 8&#8500; added to the treasury, and +1&#8676; for 82 turns.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Lyons can hurry Courthouse for 1&#8692; with 16&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 62 turns.
Turn 125, 250 AD: London has grown to size 4.
Turn 125, 250 AD: London can hurry Christian Missionary for 1&#8692; with 19&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 25 turns.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Argent has grown to size 5.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Hamburg can hurry Forge for 2&#8692; with 3&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 77 turns.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Ruby Bay has grown to size 4.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Ivory Coast has grown to size 4.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Ivory Coast can hurry Horse Archer for 2&#8692; with 32&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 24 turns.
Turn 125, 250 AD: St. Pete has grown to size 5.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Aberdeen has grown to size 3.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Darius I has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Saladin has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Darius I will trade Marble
Turn 125, 250 AD: Christianity has spread in Rostov.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 &#8484; for Paris.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 &#8484; for Paris.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Darius I has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Saladin has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 125, 250 AD: You are the worst enemy of Churchill, Kublai Khan, Stalin.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Mao Zedong is the worst enemy of Frederick, Hatshepsut.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Gandhi is the worst enemy of Saladin, Mao Zedong.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Kublai Khan is the worst enemy of Darius I, Gandhi.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Joao II will trade Feudalism
Turn 125, 250 AD: Saladin will trade Wine
Turn 125, 250 AD: Will Trade Map: Darius I, Gandhi, Hatshepsut, Joao II, Mao Zedong
Turn 125, 250 AD: Will Sign Open Borders: Darius I, Gandhi, Joao II
Turn 125, 250 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 &#8484; for Rostov.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 30 &#8484; for Moscow.
Turn 125, 250 AD: You have constructed Oxford University in Paris. Work has now begun on Christian Missionary.
Turn 125, 250 AD: You have constructed a Library in Athens. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 126, 275 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ruby Bay!
Turn 126, 275 AD: Paris can hurry Christian Missionary for 1&#8692; with 22&#8484; overflow, 8&#8500; added to the treasury, and +1&#8676; for 81 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: XO Cognac has grown to size 6.
Turn 126, 275 AD: XO Cognac can hurry Market for 2&#8692; with 14&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 61 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Lyons has grown to size 5.
Turn 126, 275 AD: London can hurry Work Boat for 1&#8692; with 30&#8484; overflow, 2&#8500; added to the treasury, and +1&#8676; for 24 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Argent has grown to size 6.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Argent can hurry Moai Statues for 1&#8692; with 16&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 57 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Hamburg has grown to size 4.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Cologne has grown to size 4.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Cologne can hurry Horse Archer for 2&#8692; with 17&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 67 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Ruby Bay can hurry Trireme for 2&#8692; with 32&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 25 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Ivory Coast has grown to size 3.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Gold Coast has grown to size 4.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Gold Coast can hurry Horse Archer for 2&#8692; with 24&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: St. Pete has grown to size 6.
Turn 126, 275 AD: St. Pete can hurry Courthouse for 2&#8692; with 32&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 42 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Jackpot has grown to size 2.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Jackpot can hurry Spy for 1&#8692; with 4&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 31 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Rostov has grown to size 5.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Rostov can hurry Forge for 2&#8692; with 19&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 22 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Moscow can hurry Granary for 1&#8692; with 34&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: York has grown to size 4.
Turn 126, 275 AD: York can hurry Granary for 2&#8692; with 28&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Hatshepsut has 130 gold available for trade.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Mao Zedong has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Transylvania are about to expand.
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Yar are about to expand.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Frederick for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in London. Work has now begun on Christian Missionary.
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Transylvania have expanded!
Turn 126, 275 AD: Hamburg can no longer work on Moai Statues. The lost &#8484; is converted into 22&#8500;!
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have trained a Trireme in Ruby Bay. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Athens. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have trained a Spy in Jackpot. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 126, 275 AD: You have constructed a Forge in Rostov. Work has now begun on a War Elephant.
Turn 126, 275 AD: The borders of Yar have expanded!
Turn 126, 275 AD: Churchill converts to Taoism!

Turn 127, 300 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ruby Bay!
Turn 127, 300 AD: Paris has grown to size 9.
Turn 127, 300 AD: XO Cognac has grown to size 7.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Lyons can hurry Taoist Missionary for 1&#8692; with 31&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 70 turns.
Turn 127, 300 AD: London has grown to size 5.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Argent has grown to size 7.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Hamburg has grown to size 5.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Hamburg can hurry Courthouse for 2&#8692; with 15&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 85 turns.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Ivory Coast can hurry Spearman for 1&#8692; with 33&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 32 turns.
Turn 127, 300 AD: St. Pete has grown to size 7.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Aberdeen has grown to size 4.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Aberdeen can hurry Forge for 2&#8692; with 8&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 17 turns.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Edirne will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Saladin has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Saladin won't trade Wine
Turn 127, 300 AD: Napoleon REAL's Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) (2.00) vs Barbarian's Galley (1.42)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Combat Odds: 88.1%
Turn 127, 300 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 127, 300 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Napoleon REAL's Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Napoleon REAL's Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Napoleon REAL's Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Napoleon REAL's Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 127, 300 AD: Napoleon REAL's Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!
Turn 127, 300 AD: Your Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) has destroyed a Galley!

Autolog:
Spoiler :
Turn 125/500 (250 AD) [27-Aug-2016 08:22:02]
Tech traded to Churchill (England): Polytheism
Tech traded to Stalin (Russia): Metal Casting
Aberdeen begins: Work Boat (10 turns)
London begins: Work Boat (5 turns)
Aberdeen begins: Forge (27 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 14 per turn
100% Gold: 95 per turn, 1115 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris finishes: Oxford University
XO Cognac grows to size 6
Lyons grows to size 5
Lyons finishes: Courthouse
Argent grows to size 6
Hamburg grows to size 4
Hamburg finishes: Forge
Cologne grows to size 4
Athens finishes: Library
Ivory Coast grows to size 3
Ivory Coast finishes: Horse Archer
Gold Coast grows to size 4
St. Pete grows to size 6
Jackpot grows to size 2
Rostov grows to size 5
York grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan (Mongolia) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 126/500 (275 AD) [27-Aug-2016 09:18:04]
Lyons begins: Taoist Missionary (8 turns)
Hamburg begins: Courthouse (60 turns)
Ivory Coast begins: Spearman (7 turns)
Paris begins: Mausoleum of Maussollos (13 turns)
Ruby Bay begins: Courthouse (20 turns)
Athens begins: Market (6 turns)
Jackpot begins: Granary (57 turns)
York begins: Courthouse (15 turns)
Istanbul begins: Islamic Monastery (61 turns)
100% Research: 432 per turn
0% Espionage: 16 per turn
0% Gold: -229 per turn, 1210 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Cologne
The whip was applied in Ruby Bay
The whip was applied in Gold Coast
The whip was applied in Jackpot
The whip was applied in Rostov
The whip was applied in York
Paris grows to size 9
XO Cognac grows to size 7
London grows to size 5
London finishes: Work Boat
Transylvania's borders expand
Argent grows to size 7
Argent finishes: Moai Statues
Hamburg grows to size 5
Cologne finishes: Horse Archer
Ruby Bay grows to size 3
Ruby Bay finishes: Trireme
Athens finishes: Axeman
Gold Coast finishes: Horse Archer
St. Pete grows to size 7
Jackpot finishes: Spy
Rostov finishes: Forge
Aberdeen grows to size 4
Moscow finishes: Granary
Yar's borders expand
York finishes: Granary

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Churchill (England) from 'Buddhism' to 'Taoism'
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Darius I (Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Darius I (Persia) towards Churchill (England), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 127/500 (300 AD) [27-Aug-2016 11:16:38]
Argent begins: Barracks (3 turns)
Cologne begins: Spy (40 turns)
Gold Coast begins: Spearman (35 turns)
Moscow begins: Jewish Missionary (8 turns)
York begins: Spy (10 turns)
A Cottage was built near Paris
A Farm was built near London
A Cottage was built near Aberdeen
While attacking, Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) decimates Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 88.1%)
While attacking in French territory at Ruby Bay, Trireme 1 (Ruby Bay) (0.72/2) defeats Barbarian Galley (Prob Victory: 88.1%)
Ruby Bay begins: Forge (18 turns)
Rostov begins: Forbidden Palace (34 turns)


The Save:
 
The Fur by Paris is pre-chopped but the deer is not.

Both St. Pete's and Rostov are pre-chopped. Rostov might have a few forests available outside its "fat cross". We would check to make sure that the forests have been stolen from Moscow.

When I suggested building MOM during a golden age I was confusing its behavior with the Taj Mahal.

What about Paris whipping Walls as part of its building MOM? Walls are need for a Castle (25% ep bonus).
 
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